Schumacher - Was he the best ever??

trendkill

Senna lapped Schumacher in Donnington that year, both cars had the same Ford engine but the Mclaren was a dog that year compared to the Benneton

To the Goth, i'd choose Prost and Senna. It was a winning combination for McLaren, 15 victories from 16 races. At least those two drivers wern't afraid of having an equal pedigree and proven driver in the same car as them, something your preciuous schumacher always lobbied against. Afterall, its the success of the team that comes first, not the one-sole driver routine ruling the roost

walshb

trendkill wrote:

Senna lapped Schumacher in Donnington that year, both cars had the same Ford engine but the Mclaren was a dog that year compared to the Benneton

To the Goth, i'd choose Prost and Senna. It was a winning combination for McLaren, 15 victories from 16 races. At least those two drivers wern't afraid of having an equal pedigree and proven driver in the same car as them, something your preciuous schumacher always lobbied against. Afterall, its the success of the team that comes first, not the one-sole driver routine ruling the roost

I don't think using examples of drivers lapping other drivers is evidence at all how god one is compared to another, or lapping 3-4 secs faster. That has more to do with one driver simply being in a vastly superior car, or the lapped driver being in difficulty with his car and technical problems. If all were in identical cars I'd bet my life there wouldn't be more than a second between the top 20 drivers from any era over a single lap, that's how good they were. But Senna to me just seemed to constantly drive faster and to the brink more than any other driver in history. The Prost-Senna rivalry is a real example of two amzing drivers in equal cars under the same orders and Senna definitely came out on top, jus about mind you, but Prost is top 5 alltime, so of course it would only have been darn close. Schumacher never really had that calibre of an opponent, and when really challenged, Michael had the full weight of the Ferrari team behind him, against not only his opponents, but his teamates.

trendkill

Comparisons is what the Schumi fans have been using to back up their arguments. One race doesn't mean sh***e, go to the start of the thread and see how many times Spain 96 has been mentioned. As Murray Walker always said, your only as good as your last race.

walshb

Murray did talk some Sh** didn't he!!!!!

trendkill

But to be blatantly honest, i've been an avid F1 fan for far too long then i can remember, i feel cheated that Ferrari never put another Superstar driver alongside of him. It would have beeen great to see Schumacher triumph over it if he had beaten them. Say if Ferrari had ditched Barrichello and Signed Raikkonen three years ago from the Sauber (ferrari engined) Team and put him straight in next to Schumacher. They never hid the fact that they wanted him but McLaren beat em to it.

I just feel cheated that for the next ten/twenty years, people are gonna pointlessly argue with peoples personal opinions,

"i bet Raikkonen would have beaten Schumi" or vice versa.

People's personal opinions are just that, and somebody else's opinions ain't gonna change that, take the goth for example, he can argue bout schumi and insult other drivers til the cows come home but he ain't gonna change the fact that alot of people know, that Shumacher is a cheat and unsportsmanlike. (he'll just lose friends and respect, not showing respect for others opinions)But thats what got schumi to where he is, they are personal opinions. I've seen Proost race, Mansell race, Senna Race, Hill, Schumi, Raikkonen, Alonso, e.t.c e.tc. And there's one name in there that is not a good representative for this competitve sport that i love

walshb

Like I said in a previous post, that I think F1 are a disgrace the way they allowed team orders to influence a race and how people can actually pay to watch that crap. That's not sport, it's just big business. You pay to watch the best drivers in the world fight tooth and nail for victory and then you discover that they weren't even competing to their highest level. An absolute Farce and an insult to all the suppoters of F1.

trendkill

Exactly bruva, Remember Indianapolis 2003, Barrichello takes montoya off while he was fighting for the championship, Barrichello ends in barrier and Montoya recovers... but goes on only to be one of the first drivers to receieve the Drive through Penalty for causing an avoidable accident. That lost him the 03 championship, another incident happened at the next race that just nailed the coffin closed. He was the closest contender. Raikkkonen needed Schumacher to finish outside the points to win, and that never happens. What i'd give to be a fly on the wall in some of those closed door meetings that take place between the head honchos and the piranha club, it ain't called that for nothing, blood sucking (just had to edit that one out, didn't get automatically censored)

thegoth

Trenkill, I take exception to you statement

"take the goth for example, he can argue bout schumi and insult other drivers til the cows come home but he ain't gonna change the fact that alot of people know, that Shumacher is a cheat and unsportsmanlike. (he'll just lose friends and respect, not showing respect for others opinions)But thats what got schumi to where he is, they are personal opinions. I've seen Proost race, Mansell race, Senna Race, Hill, Schumi, Raikkonen, Alonso, e.t.c e.tc. And there's one name in there that is not a good representative for this competitve sport that i love"

All my arguments are logically thought out and I backup everything I say.

1) Please indicate where I actually INSULTED a driver. Please note, that saying that I think Schmui was a better driver is not classed as insulting

2) Please indicate where I disagreed with the statement that " cheat and unsportsmanlike ", because I dont. I think he has been unsportsmanlike, put so has 1,000's of other sports people like Senna, Rooney, Tyson, Roy Keane....

Walsh, in 96 when Schmui had that drive in spain, his car was not the best. Far from it.

Trendkill, good point when you said "As Murray Walker always said, your only as good as your last race." - Michael won last Sunday !!

also when you say "One race doesn't mean sh***e, go to the start of the thread and see how many times Spain 96". - Fine, have a read of this. There are many more.
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Photo_Features&PO_ID=37231

walshb

Mate, I never said anything about Schu's car whether it good or bad. All I said was that a lot of these phenomenal drives people mention has a lot to do with the weak opposition or faulty opponents cars as it does to do with the brilliant driving. Lapping at 4 secs a lap faster is not normal, it's more to do with superior cars and technical problems. No way inhell would Senna, Schu or any of the top drivers lap 3-4 secs faster than each other under normal circumstances, the same way that Man U don't beat Chelsea or arsenal 7 and 8 nil every meeting. There is always very very little between the tops in all sports, F1 however has a hell of lot to do with the best machine, more than the best driver

thegoth

You did. When talking about Schmuis drive in the 96 spanish gp you said

"I don't think using examples of drivers lapping other drivers is evidence at all how god one is compared to another, or lapping 3-4 secs faster. That has more to do with one driver simply being in a vastly superior car, or the lapped driver being in difficulty with his car and technical problems."

- Schmui's car was the inferior car and there was no exceptional technical problems for other cars.

I agree that lapping 3-4 seconds is not normal. Watch the race again. The reason Schmui could do this was his level of skill in the rain. Plain and simple. Not his fault the no other driver was near his level at the time

trendkill

thegoth wrote:

Trenkill, I take exception to you statement

"take the goth for example, he can argue bout schumi and insult other drivers til the cows come home but he ain't gonna change the fact that alot of people know, that Shumacher is a cheat and unsportsmanlike. (he'll just lose friends and respect, not showing respect for others opinions)But thats what got schumi to where he is, they are personal opinions. I've seen Proost race, Mansell race, Senna Race, Hill, Schumi, Raikkonen, Alonso, e.t.c e.tc. And there's one name in there that is not a good representative for this competitve sport that i love"

All my arguments are logically thought out and I backup everything I say.

1) Please indicate where I actually INSULTED a driver. Please note, that saying that I think Schmui was a better driver is not classed as insulting

2) Please indicate where I disagreed with the statement that " cheat and unsportsmanlike ", because I dont. I think he has been unsportsmanlike, put so has 1,000's of other sports people like Senna, Rooney, Tyson, Roy Keane....

Walsh, in 96 when Schmui had that drive in spain, his car was not the best. Far from it.

Trendkill, good point when you said "As Murray Walker always said, your only as good as your last race." - Michael won last Sunday !!

also when you say "One race doesn't mean sh***e, go to the start of the thread and see how many times Spain 96". - Fine, have a read of this. There are many more.
http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=Photo_Features&PO_ID=37231

First of all ( in relation to your second point), where were you when this thread was going on

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054937798&page=3

Too afraid to back up your idol, as the majority opinion, even schumi fans agreed that he was cheating, oh ....was this the frst time you actually witnessed him cheat as i presume you were probabaly too young and didn't watch F1 all those other occasions.

Secondly

(the Goth) "JV and Hill were not anywhere near great drivers"

My response: Well they both won world championships, Hill raced motorbikes and then switched to F1, he won one championship, two if it wasn't for Schumachers Cheating ways, villeneuve won Indianapolis 500, Champ Car.. Or Cart as it was called back then, he almost won 96, only a wheel came off, almost lost 97 because of Schumachers cheating ways. How many races have you ever competed in(never mind F1 races or titles to that matter) to qualify your remarks saying they were not great drivers,

For example, (one of many) I respect Kersh's Comments ( i apologise for bringing your username into this, but its the truth), he is a fellow racer, and i can tell it comes from the heart, not just something to do on the weekends, he has competed competitively, he doesn't force his opinions on other people. He is open minded, He knows when a good driver is good, and when a bad driver is bad. The majority of us know it.

From what you said above, and I quote
"Please note, that saying that I think Schmui was a better driver is not classed as insulting", when you said that about Hill and JV, you didn't say Schumi was better so you messed your credibility up on that one alone.(you should have re-phrased it as, "....not compared to schumacher"

Then, your response to my opinion of you forcing your opinions on others, just as I accept i will never be able to change yours, you however have not gotten that and proved me right, you should proof read your posts and when your questioned about it, not claim you have done the contrary, call a spade a spade.

"All my arguments are logically thought out and I backup everything I say."
Thats exactly what you said, well obviously not mate.

P.s its trendkill with a small "t"

what about Hills 98 victory in Spa, it was great to see Schumi and Irvine chasing him down after Eau rouge and not being able to catch Hill( Wait a minute, wasn't that Jordan seriously under poewered compared to his ferrari, like you said Schumis so often was when he beat good drivers in good car) and don't give me any **** that Ralf was catching him but eddie ordered him not to overtake Hill, because you'd just be a hypocrite if you started spouting that **** around here

bmwman

Ralf was told not to overtake hill in 98, Ralf was a lot faster, and was MS about 6 seconds a lap quicker than the entire field when Coulthard took him out???

As for Hill in 94, would you's please watch the season again, MS was at home for nearly half the season and still won it.

Senna fans, get a grip, how many times did Senna push people off the track and it is called "passion", when MS does it he's evil !! did he not push Prost off the track to win a world title, that must have been lost in the history books? McLaren was a better car then the Benneton in 93, they were almost the Ford works team getting all the gadgets first and in 94 Schu won the first 2 races and was leading the third when Senna crashed off, so what more was MS to do to prove he was better? True Senna would a made a better run of the season than Hill.

trendkill

thats what i said, ralf was told not to overtake him....but for a schumi fan to complain about that in relation to Hill is hypocrisy.

plus, there is alot more to f1 then what you see in review video tapes. if you knew that you'd know why senna took prost out to win the title, but let me guess, all you've seen is the review seasons, as opposed to have been watching it live like a lot of us

In relation to what you stated about the Mclaren; McLaren did not have the latest spec Ford, that engine belonging exclusively to Benetton. Also, Traction Control was legal in 93, and Benettons T.C unit was far superior compared to McLarens. Check any of the record books about that and you'll see its right about the engines and traction control.

Joeface

I think yer gone a bit off track lads
The orignal question is was he the best ever?
The answer is probably but we will never know for sure.Main reason for not knowing for is simply there is too much of a money difference between teams and havin a power house like Ferrai behind u when u are a good driver is going to give u a huge step over your competition.Pickin out individual races and calling Drivers cheats doesnt answer the question.He wanted to win and win at all cost. You can not compare DH to him, He was an Ok driver in a very good car thats what leveled the playin field between him and Schumi.On paper with all the results he is the best, even for him self im sure he thinks he was never pushed by anyone. There was no prost to his Senna . And I always hoped The Columbian coke head would push him all the way,but it never really happened and its a real pity. To many team orders ands pitstop stragites take from the sport.
Give it 10 years we will be doing this again about some one else.

thegoth

TrendKill,

I dont understand what your talking about. I said that I agree that with the statement that " cheat and unsportsmanlike.

Secondly just because JV won the Indianapolis 500, and Champ Car does not count for alot as the he was generally racing against drivers that are not the very best in the world.

Both Hill and JV won all their titles in a car that was head and shoulders above the rest of the field. Neither won any titles in cars that were below par like what Senna and Schmui did. Also, JV never beat a world class teammate such as Rubens, Fisi, Irvine, Montoya ... Same as Hill, he never beat a world class driver over a season. Maybe Coulthard, but when Hill beat him, it was DC's first season.

Hills drive in Spa. Ralf could have won, but Ralf was not allowed to race him. Also, most the field had crashed out. ( For the record, this is my favourite race of all time. Jordans first win. Yeah. Anyone want a copy of the DVD, PM me.)

I am not forcing my views on anyone. I am backing up the reasons I have these views.

I may not have actually said that I think that Schmui was better than Hill and JV, but I at least implied it. Whats wrong with that ? Its what I believe. Thats not insulting anyone.

All my points are logically thought out, as I back all my views up with events or facts.

You seems to be trying to protray me as someone who comes on here and insults everyone posting, all F1 drivers except Schmui, and talk rubbish.

The truth is that I respect everyones opinion here. We all love the same sport. I respect all F1 drivers and dont think that I have never insulted any, and to reiterate my points, I quote facts and figures.

I challenge you to show one single post where I insulted someone posting here or a driver.

trendkill

Challenge Taken, especially since I have already pointed out whereyou insulted some drivers.

(the Goth) "JV and Hill were not anywhere near great drivers"

what do you want a link to it. I asked you, what qualifies you to say that and you failed to answer. If you have at least competed in f3 or something then maybe i'll take it with a pinch of sat. You make it sound like its a luycky game of pool. They risked their lives driving fast machines to beat Schumi. So where do you get off claiming they are not good.

ps which titles did senna win in cars that were below par as you stated, use your facts and figures for that one.

trendkill

How many times has schumis team mate not been allowed race him so its like the blind preaching to the blind if your complaining bout Ralf not being allowed to win.

You still haven't justified what qualifies your views that Hill and JV are not good drivers, just because they beat schumacher to championships is no reason to be bitter. At the end of the day, you don't rate them as being good...... but they still beat the driver you adore, and that can't be taken away from them.

For along time Schumacher only had two titles, and one of them was won by cheating, but nobody said he wasn't a great driver and didn't deserve to be seen as one, no matter how much cheatying he did, the traction control in 95 that the FIA caught on the cars. He has never been a great champion. Hill, Villeneuve, Prost, Senna, Clark, Brabham, Graham Hill, Andretti, Stewart.... they were great champions and Drivers,

trendkill

thegoth wrote:

"El Rabitos, not even going to justify what you said with an answer. You really do not have a clue about Formula 1.

Frenzen's speed at Williams, was not a reflection on his true speed. He never settled in at Williams. Do not judge JV by his year against Frenzen, as it flatters him. *******JV and Hill were not anywhere near great drivers. *******They were in the right team at the right time.

.

Theree you go, that classes as an unqualified insult about two drivers.

thegoth

Trendkill,

When I say that I dont think that JV or Hill or any other driver is not fast, or top class. Thats not insulting. Thats an opinion I have. Now if I said that Hill was a pr*ck or something like that, then thats insulting, which I do not believe. I think Hill is a very nice guy

Yes, I suppose that statement I made to El Rabitos was harsh, and I do apologise

thegoth

I know that Schmuis teammate was not allowed to race him many times. But this was different to Hills win in Spa. There were many things that went his way that day, including all top runners crashing out.

Schmuis teammates were nearly always slower than him. Them not racing him, normally just meant that Schmui didnt have to waste time waiting for a pitstop to pass them then

Dempsey

thegoth wrote:

I know that Schmuis teammate was not allowed to race him many times. But this was different to Hills win in Spa. There were many things that went his way that day, including all top runners crashing out.

Schmuis teammates were nearly always slower than him. Them not racing him, normally just meant that Schmui didnt have to waste time waiting for a pitstop to pass them then

With all the crashes at the start, only 3 or something, couldn't race and most/all the top drivers did start

Kersh

Neither won any titles in cars that were below par like what Senna and Schmui did

Neither Senna nor Schumi won titles in below par cars.
What Senna did was beat the legendary Prost to a title, when they each had the best car in 1988, then Prost beat Senna in same (best) car. In 1990 senna had best car, though the Ferrari was catching it.
in 1991 Senna won in best car, though for the 2nd half of season mansell was getting quicker in Williams.
What Schumi did was this -
1994 crashed Hill off, in a car that had illegal t/c and launch control.
1995 - Won in best car - poor teammate, contractually obliged.
2000 - Won in best car - poor teammate, contractually obliged.
2001 - Won in best car - poor teammate, contractually obliged.
2002 - Won in best car - poor teammate, contractually obliged.
2003 - Won in best car - poor teammate, contractually obliged.
2004 - Won in best car - poor teammate, contractually obliged.

thegoth

Yes, but during the race all the top runners, Schmui (While leading), DC, Mike, Fisi, JV, crashed out

Dempsey

They crashed out because they couldnt handle their cars in the conditions properly. Hill and Ralf did.

Dempsey

Kersh wrote:

What Schumi did was this -
1994 crashed Hill off, in a car that had illegal t/c and launch control.
1995 - Won in best car - poor teammate, contractually obliged.
2000 - Won in best car - poor teammate, contractually obliged.
2001 - Won in best car - poor teammate, contractually obliged.
2002 - Won in best car - poor teammate, contractually obliged.
2003 - Won in best car - poor teammate, contractually obliged.
2004 - Won in best car - poor teammate, contractually obliged.

Thats fairly much what did happen

thegoth

I agree, but there is no way that Schmui had the best car in 94 or 95.

Look at the speed of his team mates. I know they were number two, but they had the same chances in qualifing, and the same chance to set fastest laps. I know that the odd time Michael may have had an upgraded engine that his team mate did not have, if only one was available, but this is the same in every team. If only one new part is availale, the No 1 driver gets it.

Look at the style that which he won the titles from 2000 - 2004. What else did you expect him to do ? If he did not dominate the way he did, people would say that he should have.

I think the advantage that Ferrari had from 2000 - 2004 was very similar to the advantage Williams had in the mid 90's. Like a said before, alot of Williams Engineers were not impressed with JV in 97. They all thought that he made a big deal of winning the world championship. They thought he should have won it earlier in the season. This is not my opinion, but of Williams engineers.

I agree that Massa may not be a good yard stick to judge Kimi vs Michael, but I think that Luca Badoer will be as he has been always about .5 to .8 seconds slower than Schmui during their time together

thegoth

I agree, but there is no way that Schmui had the best car in 94 or 95.

Look at the speed of his team mates. I know they were number two, but they had the same chances in qualifing, and the same chance to set fastest laps. I know that the odd time Michael may have had an upgraded engine that his team mate did not have, if only one was available, but this is the same in every team. If only one new part is availale, the No 1 driver gets it.

Look at the style that which he won the titles from 2000 - 2004. What else did you expect him to do ? If he did not dominate the way he did, people would say that he should have.

I think the advantage that Ferrari had from 2000 - 2004 was very similar to the advantage Williams had in the mid 90's. Like a said before, alot of Williams Engineers were not impressed with JV in 97. They all thought that he made a big deal of winning the world championship. They thought he should have won it earlier in the season. This is not my opinion, but of Williams engineers.

I agree that Massa may not be a good yard stick to judge Kimi vs Michael, but I think that Luca Badoer will be as he has been always about .5 to .8 seconds slower than Schmui during their time together

bmwman

"Also, Traction Control was legal in 93, and Benettons T.C unit was far superior compared to McLarens. Check any of the record books about that and you'll see its right about the engines and traction control."

I don't know what history book your reading, but all the one I read said, Bennetton didn't get a working traction control unit till about Monaco were as McLaren had it near the start.

"there is alot more to f1 then what you see in review video tapes. if you knew that you'd know why senna took prost out to win the title"

There is a reason for everyone doing everything, does mean it it right, I know why Senna did it but it is still "cheating". Schu hit JV because he was faster than him (despite a little help from McLaren) until the last pit stop and he suddenly fell of the pace, does that mean he was right, I suppose if "passion" was involved it's ok?

Kersh

Im not saying Schumi wasnt great, clearly he is top 5 ever. But I will say this, Senna never had a team mate obliged to move over to allow him to win, neither did Prost, Piquet, Mansell etc... and I think Schumis position in the Pantheon of greatness is tainted by his manner of winning like this. Senna BEAT Prost to the title in a similar car, Prost was already a double champion by then.... and at the top of his game, what more, Senna hunted that seat in McLaren to beat Prost. Whereas Schumi actually had his teammates contracts written to include a 'move over' clause.
Similarly Sennas position in the top 5 is also tainted by some of his antics. Bit the thread here is about Scumi being the greatest, which he isnt.

Gwynston

I think Schumacher's "greatness" is clouded by the record books. He's broken nearly all the records but that's because he's almost always been in race-winning teams over a very long career. But you can't compare him to past drivers on wins/poles/chmpionships alone.

I can never consider him greatest because he was never up against many of the best drivers. e.g. in the 80s you had multiple champs Senna, Prost, Piquet, Mansell, Lauda all competing at the same time, so you could get a handle on how they stacked up against each other. Schumacher's never had that most of the time - only Mika and most recently Alonso, who both stack up very well against him - showing that he wasn't better than them.

Also the fact that he always refused to have a top rival in "his" team, and that he always had preferential treatment over his teammates means his true greatness has never been properly measured.

And all that is discounting comparisons with other greats in the 70s, 60s and earlier, which is even harder. So I don't think it's possible for anyone to convince me he's the best ever.... Definitely one of the greats though.

Omnipresence

Technically amazing.. no one can doubt that... you can't change his record

Rubbish 'Sportsman' though...

You need to have both to be "Great" in my opinion...

Actually don't personally know anyone who likes this guy after the ****ty stunts he has pulled during his career

-Alan

walshb

Records mean zero in F1 because of the amount of races which were rigged. How can anything be taken as real when F1 allows that???

steviec

walshb wrote:

Mate, I never said anything about Schu's car whether it good or bad. All I said was that a lot of these phenomenal drives people mention has a lot to do with the weak opposition or faulty opponents cars as it does to do with the brilliant driving. Lapping at 4 secs a lap faster is not normal, it's more to do with superior cars and technical problems. No way inhell would Senna, Schu or any of the top drivers lap 3-4 secs faster than each other under normal circumstances, the same way that Man U don't beat Chelsea or arsenal 7 and 8 nil every meeting. There is always very very little between the tops in all sports, F1 however has a hell of lot to do with the best machine, more than the best driver

Yea but we were talking about Spain 96, Monaco 97, Spa 97, Spa 98, every single time it was wet in the late 90s Michael was 4-10 seconds per lap faster than every single other driver on the grid. It wasn't exceptional circumstances or a superior car(in fact he had an inferior car throughout those years), it was something he did very consistently in the wet before tyre wars and traction control were reintroduced and driver ability became less important in wet races.

Spain 96 had been brought up loads because it was an astonishing drive, and one nobody else could have achieved. The later races were equally dominant but aren't mentioned as much because his car wasn't as much of a dog(though still not the best)

The records show Michael as the best, but there are far more important things than records. And thats the real reason why I rate Michael so highly, I already considered him the greatest back in 99 before he held any records. His two championships for Benetton, race after race the dominant Williams would lock out the front row but Michael would come through to win with his ability to produce huge sequences of qualifying-pace laps which the Williams drivers just had no answer to. His ability to man-handle the early Ferraris to victories. His total obliteration of everyone else in the wet. The way he fought for the title so often in cars that were nowhere near the best. And the way, when he finally did get the best car, he just humiliated everyone and rewrote the record books. Yes, he won often in the best car. But he also won often when he didn't have the best car, and it was his work with Ferrari that led them to where they were in 02 and 04. And remember even in those years there were races when other teams had the upper hand, like France 04 when Alonso looked like winning but Michael proved he still had the edge with a switch to four stops and a series of stunning laps, akin to his win over the superior McLarens at Hungary 98.

I could honestly go on for hours about the many many many incredible races Michael has given us over the last 15 years. I'll admit I only saw Senna in his late career(started watching around 91) but I've watched many tapes and read a lot and there's no doubt he and Prost are incredible drivers. I can't say that Schumacher is better than either of them but I would also never accept anyone trivialising Schumacher's career with talk of superior cars and lapdog team-mates when so often he's won against the odds and he's earned all the success he's had. Best ever? The sport's changed so much that comparing him to racers of old is about as easy as comparing him to footballers or tennis players. Although Tiger Woods did recently say he considers Michael the single greatest sportsman in the world toay ahead of himself and Roger Federer. As a Formula 1 fan I'd agree :cool:

Gwynston

steviec wrote:

Tiger Woods did recently say he considers Michael the single greatest sportsman in the world toay ahead of himself and Roger Federer. As a Formula 1 fan I'd agree :cool:

Tiger obviously doesn't know what he's talking about....
Schumacher's qualities as sportsman are highly debatable with the many underhand things he's done throughout his career.

walshb

Tiger should stick to what he knows best, playing that old mans game.
Schumacher is and was a great driver, the BEST we'll never know. What I do know is that he competed in an era when F1 was deliberately deceiving the public and allowing races to be won by team orders. That has to tarnish any efforts to judge him the best driver ever. As for sportsman, I'd rate Federer ahead of Schumacher. F1 to me is more a Business than a SPORT!!!

trendkill

"Australia 1996: Eddie Irvine is ordered to allow Schumacher past.
Japan 1997: Irvine is ordered to give up the lead in a move designed to aid Schumacher's championship aspirations.
Belgium 1998: Irvine is ordered to hand 2nd place to Schumacher on lap 1.
France 1999: Irvine is forbidden to overtake Schumacher when it was abundantly clear that he could have done so.
Canada 2000: Barichello is forbidden to overtake Schumacher when it was abundantly clear that he could have done so.
Hungary 2000: Barrichello is ordered to give way to Schumacher following the latter's pitstop.
Austria 2001: Barichello is ordered to hand second place to Schumacher in order to maximise Schumacher's championship points.
Austria 2002: Barichello is ordered to give away victory on the last lap in order to maximise Schumacher's championship points."

"Nelson Piquet has been the only team-mate to outscore Schumacher,"

"Well actually, if the point system used when schumacher won his 5 championships had have been used back in the 1980s Alain Prost would have won 7 (1983,1984,1985,1986,1988,1989 and 1993)."

extracts taken from:

http://au.geocities.com/flucas2000/antischu.html

interesting reading

plus, no one has menitoned , after schumacher broke his leg and was resting, Luca di Montezemolo rang Schumachersw house, one of his kids answered and said "Daddy, he's out the back playing football with..." Luca was raging and Ordered Schumacher back for Malaysia, If great F1 drivers make few mistakes, making the same mistake in the same round in two sequential years, is that a great driver, stalling on the grid from pole in 99....the second time, a fool wouldn't bet against that it was him not wanting to help Irvine take the championship he had dreamed of.

steviec

trendkill wrote:

"Australia 1996: Eddie Irvine is ordered to allow Schumacher past.
Japan 1997: Irvine is ordered to give up the lead in a move designed to aid Schumacher's championship aspirations.
Belgium 1998: Irvine is ordered to hand 2nd place to Schumacher on lap 1.
France 1999: Irvine is forbidden to overtake Schumacher when it was abundantly clear that he could have done so.
Canada 2000: Barichello is forbidden to overtake Schumacher when it was abundantly clear that he could have done so.
Hungary 2000: Barrichello is ordered to give way to Schumacher following the latter's pitstop.
Austria 2001: Barichello is ordered to hand second place to Schumacher in order to maximise Schumacher's championship points.
Austria 2002: Barichello is ordered to give away victory on the last lap in order to maximise Schumacher's championship points."

"Nelson Piquet has been the only team-mate to outscore Schumacher,"

"Well actually, if the point system used when schumacher won his 5 championships had have been used back in the 1980s Alain Prost would have won 7 (1983,1984,1985,1986,1988,1989 and 1993)."

extracts taken from:

http://au.geocities.com/flucas2000/antischu.html

interesting reading

plus, no one has menitoned , after schumacher broke his leg and was resting, Luca di Montezemolo rang Schumachersw house, one of his kids answered and said "Daddy, he's out the back playing football with..." Luca was raging and Ordered Schumacher back for Malaysia, If great F1 drivers make few mistakes, making the same mistake in the same round in two sequential years, is that a great driver, stalling on the grid from pole in 99....the second time, a fool wouldn't bet against that it was him not wanting to help Irvine take the championship he had dreamed of.

Nice objective source you have there...

Funny out of that list of team orders, the very first one you fail to mention that Schumacher held up Hakkinen and let Irvine overtake him as part of the strategy in the early race, Irvine was not quicker than Schumacher they were just being tactical. Schumacher could have run away with that race and left Irvine behind but he brought him into play to minimize the damage Villeneuve could do. Then the second on the list, Belgium 98. My god you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel there. Michael obliterated the field and was 6 seconds a lap faster than anyone else at times. But no, obviously he only got there thanks to team orders!

Then you've a handful of races where team-mates didn't overtake him. Judging by how dodgy the first two 'examples' of team-orders are I'd be dubious as to whether these races were team orders or team-mates who weren't fast enough to pass him. I honestly don't remember.

Austria seems to be the only solid example of him winning a race thanks to team orders. While Malaysia 99 and Indianapolis 02 are two examples of him giving races to his team-mates. So don't try to make out that his records are down to team orders, at absolute most he'd be down a few points but a very very very very tiny percentage of his success has been thanks to team orders. Team orders which other teams also apply whenever they have one dominant driver fighting for the title but nobody ever takes notice for some reason...

Blackjack

Did Hakkinen not win his first 2 races by Coulthard pulling over to let him pass while in the lead?.

trendkill

Excuse me, they weren't my views. If they had been i wouldn't have put "extracts taken from" and then followed by the link. I said interesting reading, not.... i believe these 100 percent. I am very capable of debating my own opinions. these were extracts taken from an external site, inviting people to read them, hence the Quotation marks ("....").

The only opinion of mine that i stated was the one about stalling on the grid in 99. Complain to the moderator of the site i have listed, and don't come complaining to me, afterall, they were extracts from someone else's opinions. Question him/her on them. I can't defend others opinions. I only posted it as an advert if people wanted to look at the site and read it for themselves. Would you like me to delete my previous post, if so just tell me, and i'll be glad to be of help to you

And obviously you don't understand what "extracts taken from means" or else you wouldn't have put "My god you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel there" which i take great offence to. Your saying "your" means its directed at me, my opinions which they haven't been.

If i was complaining about team-mates leaving no.1 driver by i'd be a hypocrite. How many times has Fisichella let Alonso through as he was the faster car in the last two years. And i'm an Alonso fan. But not many people have realised that one.

Be dubious all you want mate, its seems to be working vey well for you.

To me and alot of other people on this forum and around the globe, we are Dubious of Schumacher.

Dempsey

Blackjack wrote:

Did Hakkinen not win his first 2 races by Coulthard pulling over to let him pass while in the lead?.

The first was a bet i think, first to the first corner gets the win if they are 1st and 2nd or something or was that the McLaren excuse

trendkill

Yeah it waas an agreement, who ever reached the corner first. It was just an excuse,since Hakkinens duff hearing misheard a radio message and thought he was being called into the pits, so he did, and drove straight through. Becausse of Hakkinens adelaide crash where he fractured his skull, he lost 70 percent hearing in hiis left ear.

steviec

trendkill wrote:

Excuse me, they weren't my views. If they had been i wouldn't have put "extracts taken from" and then followed by the link. I said interesting reading, not.... i believe these 100 percent. I am very capable of debating my own opinions. these were extracts taken from an external site, inviting people to read them, hence the Quotation marks ("....").

The only opinion of mine that i stated was the one about stalling on the grid in 99. Complain to the moderator of the site i have listed, and don't come complaining to me, afterall, they were extracts from someone else's opinions. Question him/her on them. I can't defend others opinions. I only posted it as an advert if people wanted to look at the site and read it for themselves. Would you like me to delete my previous post, if so just tell me, and i'll be glad to be of help to you

And obviously you don't understand what "extracts taken from means" or else you wouldn't have put "My god you're really scraping the bottom of the barrel there" which i take great offence to. Your saying "your" means its directed at me, my opinions which they haven't been.

If i was complaining about team-mates leaving no.1 driver by i'd be a hypocrite. How many times has Fisichella let Alonso through as he was the faster car in the last two years. And i'm an Alonso fan. But not many people have realised that one.

Be dubious all you want mate, its seems to be working vey well for you.

To me and alot of other people on this forum and around the globe, we are Dubious of Schumacher.

Well I was working on the assumption that if you quote something then you actually believe what it says. And I was simply pointing out that that list was very much stretching the truth, I'm not quite sure what the purpose was if you already knew it was false before you quoted it.

I agree about Suzuka 99 by the way. And I don't blame him to be honest, it wouldn't have been right for Eddie to take that title like that. Unlike Michael he was heavily dependent on team-mates(even Salo) handing him race results. Michael, through his career has been miles ahead of his team-mates and team orders have just been used in the one or two anomolies when Schumacher is behind, usually due to mitigating circumstances(Austria 02 is really the one and only exception I can think of and I really wish Ferrari hadn't done that)

But yea, team orders in a team sport are perfectly acceptable as far as I'm concerned, and my main point is that Schumacher hasn't in any way been dependent on them, he's taken advantage of them no more than any other number one driver fighting for the championship, he just happens to have been a number one driver fighting for a championship more than most!

trendkill

I was confused by your first comment on my post, whether which ones you were talking about, you referred to belgium as the second race on the quote i posted although it was the third, so i presume the first argument was in relation to the second race, which was Japan 97. I remember the overtaking manoeuvre and was stunned by it, i can recall the commenntator saying something like Irvine making use of some grip there that none of the rest knew about, probably from his formula nippon days. It was an amazing overtaking maoeuvre, around the outside of Schumacher and Hakkinen at the First Curve, here's a link to the Autosport review:

http://atlasf1.autosport.com/97/jpn/gordon2.html

In France 99, Irvine was ordered not to overtake Schumacher even though he was faster, Shumi had a transmission failure

http://atlasf1.autosport.com/99/fra/lupini.html

If i wanted to prove some of these points and opinions by the moderator of the site i quoted from i'd give it my best shot. I have invited him to take part in the debate, whether he does or doesn't i don't know. Nobody seems to have mentioned Taz Nuvolari

On another note, (and far away from the subject)I was present at the latter race i mentioned as a V.I.P guest of the McLaren Team. A close relative is an executive of Sun Microsystems, the technological partner of McLaren for the past 20 odd years. I have been very lucky to have attended so many races with a Sun Microsystems pass and been fortunate enough to have met Senna, Prost, Hakkinen,Coulthard, Mansell, Hill,Schumacher, amongst alot of others. My relative only goes to the High Profile races, maybe three or four a year,no need to mention them. He then has usually about 4 other times a year, V.I.P passes that he doesn't use. A thought popped into my mind about a month ago after i discovered Boards.ie about having a competition and giving one member the chance of a lifetime by giving the 2 Passes as a prize. I won't know until after the new year which races they will probably be, so i'll keep it on the backburner. I have been very lucky to have had these opportunities and would like to give someone else the opportunity, maybe twice next year, (but of course i'll want to go to at least oe next year), i could put em on ebay and make a small fortune, but i'm sure it would be the last time i'd receive them if my relative found out, so i'm sure he'd be happy if we had a competition for them instead. Due to prior engagements, my year is fairly well busy from Christmas to May, so maybe, Catalunya, shame Imola is gone, not too many close European ones in that period.

dinjo

when you really think about it....... he wasn't the best ever! HE IS THE BEST EVER !

BANZAI_RUNNER

absolutley the best driver there was / is and will be for a long time

DermoMIO

only read first and 5th page and have to agree 100% with everyone backing Schumi and laugh at those saying how ****e he is schumi is clearly one of the best drivers ever i dont need to state any facts every1 before me have done that. i am proud to be a fan of him and always will be

trendkill

Read the previous 4 pages , no one has said he is ****e.......

Kersh

only read first and 5th page

Then why bother posting if you couldnt be bothered reading it?
The thread is asking is he the greatest. He isnt. Fangio had a better wins to races ratio, so that makes Fangio the greatest, and Fangio didnt cheat...or have team mates move over etc etc etc etc.

Dempsey

Nobody called Schumacher ****e in this thread

stever

trendkill wrote:

"Well actually, if the point system used when schumacher won his 5 championships had have been used back in the 1980s Alain Prost would have won 7 (1983,1984,1985,1986,1988,1989 and 1993)."

If Shumacher was racing under the 1961 points rules or 1991 points rules which Prost raced under, Schumacher would still have won all the championships he did win.