Schumacher - Was he the best ever??

trendkill

But Prost would have won seven, thats all the point the posted quote makes, is not detracting from Schumacher tally.

The 60's rules, was that when they took the two best finishes and the two worst finishes? or something like that.

I agree with Kersh, Fangio was probably the greatest driver but the sport was so much different then, they were real men putting their balls on the line every lap. As I mentioned in a previous thread, Fangio broke his neck and then won 5 world titles. No one can deny that is a real feat,

bmwman

"I agree with Kersh, Fangio was probably the greatest driver but the sport was so much different then, they were real men putting their balls on the line every lap. As I mentioned in a previous thread, Fangio broke his neck and then won 5 world titles. No one can deny that is a real feat,"

How can we compare the 60's to today's drivers? If we put fangio in an F1 car today who says he will be technically good enough to be up with the best, skill wise I doubt anyone would argue he would be up there, but would he be able to set up a car? Also fitness would be a factor could he be bothered to gym it every day? And how does braveness come into it? Sure it was a lot more dangerous back then but does that mean it was better? Surely the best driver is the one who could drive the fastest consistantly? It's like when idiots say the E-type jag is the best car ever, all new cars are crap etc .

trendkill

The Fangio thing has been argued on an earlier thread...want a link or something

Kersh

Surely the best driver is the one who could drive the fastest consistantly?

and that man is...... Fangio, cos he won more races of those he started than anyone else.

OSiriS

I posted a link to a video on the first page of this thread which contains onboard footage of Fangio driving. After watching that I have no doubt he would have absolutely no problem driving a modern car if given one at his peak.

bmwman

Just because he won more races than he started doesn't mean he's the greatest ever, he only raced 50 odd races, sure by that logic if I raced one and won one, I'd have a better record than him.

I'm sure there are other treads about, but is it not relevant to this one? "Is he the greatest " ??

Kersh

And by that logic, Schumi isnt the greatest even though he has all the records!!
Sure that means nothing cos he did 240 odd races.... he has had plenty of time.

trendkill

Its true, the better strike rate wins it. To recover from a broken neck and do all that, sheer unrivalled brilliance. Now if there was formula 1 in Nuvolari's day, this argument wouldn't be happening.

So, Schumacher is the Greatest, so that means by your opinions, there is only one driver that can go on and become the greatest of all time, Alonso. He's young enough to race for the next fourteen years, he already has one title, Schumacher has to win this years title to stop Alonso going on to become the greatest. If he wins this year, it means he was capable of beating Schumacher in a 50/50 fight

(if you can call it that,banning a device that was used for a year and a half, used in the car that won the title for Alonso, copied by ferrari but they couldn't get it to work).

So hence, that would be a total of 2 titles, giving him 14 years to win another 5, or 6 to beat Schumachers record. But in 14 years, I bet if Alonso does it.... The Schumi fans will still be arguing that he was the better driver, its a lose lose situation with you bunch. If Alonso races for 14 years, 5 in an ultra dominant car, he will beat all of Schumachers records, if he holds them all, will all the Schumi fans convert to saying Alonso was the greatest of all time...... i wouldn't put my money on it.

thegoth

I think that Schmu is the best, but I have thought this since about 97, long before he held all the records he holds today. To me, and many other people who think that Schmui is the best, his records do not enter into it. Its his performance relative to the competition.

I agree, Fangio is one of the best ever. However, when I think of Fangio, I automatically think if rallying, as F1 from his day is far more comparable to modern day rallying than F1

trendkill

I respect your comment bout schumi and 97. There is alot of backing up beliefs by records which is quite justifiable, just wish i could forward myself through time to see how alonso gets on. Anyway, no hard feelings bout previous debates in case I came across a bit harsh. But rallying... if one of those old cars went sideways through a corner, it would have been pitched into a barrel roll and the driver would have been thrown out of his seatbelt less-solid metal frame, seen enough crashes of those old cars, **** man, Gilles Villeneuves crash was absolutely horrible and that was almost 30 years later, for his son to get into a car is unimaginable, never mind win,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xchyj2v1x94

He was the last F1 driver to die before Senna and Ratzenberger almost exactly 12 years later

thegoth

Thanks Trend. I respect your point of view as well. Good to meet other people who are passionate about F1.

I am interested to see how Alsonso gets on over the next 14 years or so as well. He may well prove without doubt that he is the greatest... All I can say is that I think that Alonso will have his fair share or "Schmui" moves, i.e foul play in races as did Senna. I just see it in his character. When his back is against the wall I think he would do what Schmui did to Hill and JV and what Senna did to Prost.

trendkill

oh without a doubt, same goes for Raikkonen, hope he doesn't turn out to be a pompous prick. At least Schumacher use to treat little bruve Ralfie the same, remember when he nearly ran him into the barrier on the straight of Magny COURS AT THE START IN 2001, hell that was brilliant( not a fan of Ralph,good but overhyped). But the majority of younger drivers now grew up watching Schumis style of racing, so it'll rub off. I'm very sure there will be some controversial moves between Raikkonen and Alonso next year and probably after, if you look at Hakkinen annd Schumi, that **** went all the way back to their days in Macau, when all Hakkinen had to do was finish to win but Schumi took him out to win..ha.

seand333

It's hard to compare drivers of the past, but i can't see how there was ever anyone better than schumacher. in fact, has there ever been any sportsman as good under pressure and as consistent as schumacher? sportsmen go through patches of form, and i know motor racing is different, but man, he was always good.

trendkill

Just put it this way, Schumacher has driven almost 100 grand prixs more then Senna, if Senna hadn't died it could be a whole different story. That leads to a strange stat too, Senna out of 164 races i think got 65 poles, Schumacher almost 100 race starts more and he has 67.

Blackjack

trendkill wrote:

Just put it this way, Schumacher has driven almost 100 grand prixs more then Senna, if Senna hadn't died it could be a whole different story. That leads to a strange stat too, Senna out of 164 races i think got 65 poles, Schumacher almost 100 race starts more and he has 67.

And the same stats for race wins?. You can use selective statistics to argue any point, but Senna had less race wins than poles, wheras Schumacher had more race wins than Pole positions. Does that mean Senna was a one trick pony?. I don't think so, but I'm sure neither to you.

Kersh

has there ever been any sportsman as good under pressure and as consistent as schumacher

Lets face it, Schumi has been consistently crap under pressure. Like I have said earlier, he has only ever won one of his 'down to the wire' championship showdowns.
He cracked under pressure from Hill, then took him out,
He cracked under pressure from JV and tried the same move.
He stalled on the grid against Hakkinen, from pole might I add.
That leaves 03 as the only time he won a showdown.....

Like I have said on here, he is unreal in a car, defo top 5 ever, and i wouldn really criticise any of his moves on fellow drivers, as that is racing nowadays (unfortunately), the only beef I do have with him is the illegal T/C and launch control in his 94 benetton. But please please dont feed us that crap about him being good under pressure, cos he is not, he is no better than anyone else.

trendkill

Senna won 41 races from 162 starts,
Schumacher had totalled 49 races at the end of his 162 start at the European Nurburgring race in 2001,
From your own comments, Schumacher dominated in his career due to lack of Competition from other drivers, Villeneuve and Hill, one trick ponies in the majority belief, Hakkinen the only competitor.

In Sennas time, we had Mansell, Prost, Piquet, one quadruple and one triple world champions, that amounts to eight world titles alone,excl. Senna's three. Senna still managed to make this large total of wins while they were on action on the track, Schumacher made 49, and thats not too impressive due to the lack of World Champion class compared to the 80's and early 90's, Hill, Hakkinen, Villeneuve(my opinion of great drivers)one trick ponies as someone called them, that amounts to four championships in total. Which has the most impressive out of those 162 starts..... would love to find out how many pole positions Schumacher had by his 162nd start... anyone know

Just found out, Nurburgring 2001 was Schumachers 38th pole position, by which time, after 162 race starts, Senna had 65

To compare drivers statistically, go here http://www.4mula1.ro/compare/driver, fangio statistically beats schumacher...

trendkill

Fangio beats Jim Clark, and Clark beats Senna...