Theoretical Physics College Course

Acid_Violet

This is the first time I've ever posted on this section of boards, solely out of uncertainty over whether or not I should do TP in Tcd. The problem is that I know it's very maths-based and even though I'm quite good at maths several people who I know dropped out of the course after the first year because it was too difficult and these people have done stuff like the Maths Olympiad. This is the main thing I'm interested in doing in college but I'm apprehensive about the difficulty of it. Could anyone doing the course give me any guidance on whether I should still go for it bearing all of that in mind?

David19

I'm doing maths in TCD. It seems they're changing the 1st year course a little for both maths and TP students so you won't have quite as many subjects. You should check the site for more info on the course and the subjects.

Anyway yeah TP is very heavily maths based and you share a lot of classses with pure maths students. Its hard to know whether you'll be able for it or not without actually doing it. The maths is a lot different from LC maths. You should bear in mind that if you don't like it you can usually change into a different course after the first few weeks(provided you have the points).

Post this on the TCD forum as a few of them have done TP and also search for previous threads as this has come up quite a bit.

Acid_Violet

Thanks. I don't want to change courses definitely though but thanks for the help.

Professor_Fink

I went to UCD, not Trinity, but that shouldn't make to much of a difference for what I am about to say. TP does involve a lot of maths, but if you can get in, then you shouldn't have a problem with the maths (do they still require a B2?).

What tends to happen is that you get a lot of students coming in who are used to being towards the top of their class in maths, and they decide that they don't have to work to hard in first year. This is a big mistake. If you work on the material, there should be no problems. There is of course a huge temptation to skip lectures, and assignments. I have to be honest and say that I was guilty of that during my first few years. It makes it much harder to pass if you weren't at the lecures.

So basically, the maths is managable, and it shouldn't put you off.

Civilian_Target

I was going to do TP in Trinity, and got the points and results to do so, but chose instead to do Physics & Computer Science in Queens.
However, I knew people who chose TP.

It's not an easy course, not by a long stretch of the imagination. You have to be not only be a reasonably talented and creative mathematician, but also a dedicated worker because this course is one of the most difficult in the country, even for those with the talents. Look at the statistics, you have to get 500+ points, a B1 in higher Maths and Physics (that's much less than 1% of all LC students!) just to get in and still the dropout rate is about 50%. Realisticly, if you are aiming at an A in both Maths and Physics and can grab 500 points without destroying yourself, you've got all the right abilities.

But, if you enjoy a challenge, have an interest and flair in Maths and analysis and are quick to grasp new concepts you'll find it a challenging, and hopefully ultimately rewarding and enjoyable experience, and you'll finish with a strong and very flexible degree that can lead you happily into any Maths based industry.

The department have an open day at some point after Christmas thats very good and should help make your decision easier, but for now I'd recommend you keep an open mind and if you want to do it, you should.

ApeXaviour

Acid_Violet wrote:

The problem is that I know it's very maths-based and even though I'm quite good at maths

But do you like maths? You should not choose a course that you think you won't enjoy studying. Fortunately people tend to like what they're good at.
As a maths friend of mine has said many times on this subject, college maths is almost nothing like leaving cert maths. It gets much more abstract with less actual problems to be solved. For instance, if you didn't have to do it for the physics half of your course, you'd probably forget how to integrate by the time you reach 3rd year.

I'd rather not draw any conclusions for you though, it's better if you draw your own. TP doesn't have that high a failure rate, mostly a high dropout rate in and after 1st year. I gather that's because it's not what people had in mind. I also know that they tend to throw you in the deep-end from the word go w.r.t. maths in the beginning, though near the end of the course (3rd/4th year) the physics begins to become the harder of the two. So I'm told..

By the way I'm doing a BA(mod) in Physics, so shared many classes with TPs especially in the sophister years.

lucernarian

I was thinking of doing this course next year. I'm not sure whether it will be my first or second choice on the CAO. I am worried about the difficulty of the course too and if I will get much enjoyment out of the course at the end of the day.

My main question is: what do graduates of this course end up doing when they have completed it? Are the jobs on offer enjoyable or well paid even?

Professor_Fink

Well, of the 6 that actually graduated in my year from UCD, I think all are doing doctorates of some kind by now (one is doing an MD I think).

David19

Here's an example of the maths you do:

http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~odunlain/111/book.pdf

They're notes for the 1st year linear algebra course. You should be able to gather from that that its very different from LC maths.

I'd echo what Professor_Fink and Civilian_Target said, if you have the requirements to get in and you work fairly consistently at it from the start(and don't slack) its doable. Enjoying maths is definitely a prequisite too.

David19

To_be_confirmed wrote:

My main question is: what do graduates of this course end up doing when they have completed it? Are the jobs on offer enjoyable or well paid even?

Most TPs tend to go on to further study after their degrees. The stats are on the TCD maths site somewhere. I think thats due to their deep interest in the subject rather than poor employment prospects. They're about as employable as a maths student and at least half of them get jobs after their degrees.

One very highly paid career with a TP degree is finance(esp in London). Actuary would be another. Not sure if you'd find them enjoyable though.

Good info about TP and maths here:
http://www.maths.tcd.ie/undergraduate/prospectus/

mrac

Im just wondering how much maths is in a "normal" physics degree ? and is the maths in a physics degree anything like the LC applied maths ?

Professor_Fink

First year mechanics is leaving cert applied maths + a little bit more. Any mathematical physics course will be substantially tougher than the LC in the first year. Experimental isn't quite so bad, and first year is more of an incremental step from the LC.

The LC course in applied maths only covers a very small section of physics, and other areas will require you to learn more advanced mathematical techniques.

lucernarian

If I was to do Theoretical Physics or another Maths-Physics based course, which university out of Trinity or UCD or Maynooth have the best reputation in the area? Is the amount of points each course demands, the best judge?

Son Goku

To_be_confirmed wrote:

If I was to do Theoretical Physics or another Maths-Physics based course, which university out of Trinity or UCD or Maynooth have the best reputation in the area? Is the amount of points each course demands, the best judge?

Despite what people will say to you, they are all pretty much even.
They all have their pros and cons, but it would make no real difference to a career in the area.

(I can give the pros and cons of each if you want).

ApeXaviour

mrac wrote:

Im just wondering how much maths is in a "normal" physics degree ? and is the maths in a physics degree anything like the LC applied maths ?

Simple answer? Yes, but obviously at quite a higher level. For a degree in physics you will learn to be fairly proficient in:
pretty much all aspects of calculus,
linear algebra and matrices,
ordinary and some partial differential equations

Then you'd need to know a bit of:
Fourier series, transforms etc
Statistics and Probability.

I say it is like leaving cert applied maths because it places less emphasis on proofs (though they are provided should you wish to be convinced). It's more of a tool to use in derivations. And in physics there are a lot of derivations.

phil_

Just a quick hint that I wish someone had told me when I was filling out my CAO years ago:

When talking about the TP degree, Trinity people have an annoying tendency to call everything that is taught by the Physics department 'Physics' and everything that is taught by the Maths department 'Maths'. Thus, the prospective student is incorrectly told that courses in TP consist of approx. half 'Physics' courses and half 'Maths' courses. This is actually manifestly untrue. The courses consist of (i) physics courses taught by the Physics department (e.g. solid state, atomic & molecular physics, electromagnetism, statistical thermodynamics), (ii) physics courses taught by the Maths department (e.g. classical mechanics, quantum mechanics, classical field theory, general relativity, statistical physics, quantum computing) and finally (iii) mathematics courses taught by the Maths department (in algebra, analysis and mathematical methods). These latter mathematics courses are taught only in first and second year, so by the time you are in third and fourth year of TP, you will be taking *only* physics courses : one set taught by the physics department (usually in more 'practical' subjects) and one set taught by the maths department - usually more interesting, in more depth and more rigorous.

It is important to realise that there is some duplication of courses between the Theoretical Physics degree and Physics degree, which you would go into in 3rd and 4th year through the Natural Science CAO option. This latter Physics degree is actually an 'Experimental Physics' degree, though they don't call it this. Students of this Experimental Physics degree take less thorough, less rigorous courses in mechanics and quantum mechanics for example, taught by the Physics department. As a TP, you would do the same subjects, only they would be taught by the Maths department in greater depth and arguably by lecturers with greater analytic capacities. So the Theoretical Physics degree is basically just a more advanced physics degree than the Physics degree.

Even if you are mainly interested in experimental physics, I would still advise you to take the TP degree - you can continue to do experimental labs in 3rd and 4th year if you want, and you will end up with a more thorough overall grounding in physics at the end your degree.

After your TP degree, you would easily be able to continue on in Experimental Physics if you so chose. The converse is not true: Experimental Physics students will *not* be able to move into postgraduate research in Theoretical Physics, as their degree does not equip them with the necessary background.

For example, Experimental Physics students don't take a course in General Relativity as this is taught by the Maths department and is only open to TP students. This is of course a central foundation of modern physics, as well as being exceptionally beautiful, but most Experimental Physics degree students will never study it, even if they continue to postgraduate level. While the TPs are going to General Relativity lectures, Experimental Physics (EPs) would be taking courses in things like Microelectronics and Instrumentation.

Hope this helps clear things up a bit!

-phil_

JIZZLORD

i remember chatting to my old housemates brother, he asked what i was doing and when i said i was doing physics (experimental physics in Nuig) he said he was doing TP in trinity but changed to geology because he didnt like how useless his degree seemed (to him), he said he loved physics in school but the stuff he had been studying was a bit too abstract.
i love physics but i would never do Tp as i feel that it would leave me in a position for post grad only (even though i want to go down that route myself). Finance is an option but that isnt exactly physics, onr of my lecturers from last year from the maths physics department was talking to us after a lecture and told us his plans to leave lecturing. he did his masters and phd in a purely academic subject only to realise that it wasnt for him and he had to get out before it was too late...

s_mury

the TP CAO courses are often not the best option depending on what area of theoretcial physics you want to get in to. its mostly about universities having denominated high point courses in order to get more students. Trinity started it of course. for example before ucd made TP a cao course a few years ago they still had a math physics department and thought TP, one just got to it through general science (the proper way in my opinion).

if you want to get into more mathematical areas of TP/maths physics such as string theory, non-commutative geometry, conformal field theory, .... it might be more useful to replace the experimental physics courses with more mathematical ones, something you can't do in straight TP.
i would investigate whether all the TP courses are available to a general science student, moving into a maths physics degree programme in third year or if one can change over after 2nd year. also, the official stance can be different from what might happen in reality, if the department see good student they won't turn you down.

Son Goku

s_mury wrote:

if you want to get into more mathematical areas of TP/maths physics such as string theory, non-commutative geometry, conformal field theory, .... it might be more useful to replace the experimental physics courses with more mathematical ones, something you can't do in straight TP.

This is very good advice, particularly if you're kind of half-way on whether you like physics or maths more. The average theoretical physics degree might leave you unprepared for the proof and modern math laden areas that have appeared in recent years.

ApeXaviour

phil_ wrote:

... taught by the Maths department in greater depth and arguably by lecturers with greater analytic capacities.

Uh-huh... I very much doubt the fidelity of this statement

phil_ wrote:

So the Theoretical Physics degree is basically just a more advanced physics degree than the Physics degree.

This is subjective opinion. Truthfully for me, instrumentation (despite its tame title) is the most impossibly difficult course I've yet to study. TP may be a more mathematically advanced course, but in terms of physics in the modern world I would disagree with that statement.

phil_ wrote:

After your TP degree, you would easily be able to continue on in Experimental Physics if you so chose. The converse is not true: Experimental Physics students will *not* be able to move into postgraduate research in Theoretical Physics, as their degree does not equip them with the necessary background.

This is plainly untrue. I've known a couple physics graduates and even an advanced materials graduate who went on to do a theoretically based PhD in physics departments. I've also known chemistry grads to do physics postgrads and vice versa.

phil_ wrote:

Even if you are mainly interested in experimental physics, I would still advise you to take the TP degree

This is bad advice. If you have a hankering for experimenting (in science I mean of course). Then you should do a course that gives you some grounding in some real experimental work as well as theory like Physics through TR071.
For example, as I type this I'm in a government lab facility in Denmark doing my final year project. This means I play the part of a research student 40 hours a week for nearly 4 months. I'm alone here right now left in charge of €2,000,000 equipment that consists of quite a powerful laser, a 50,000V electron gun and some large ultra-high-vacuum chambers. And that's just the equipment. I was also attempting a few minutes ago to derive an equation to help calculate and calibrate the electron gun position (it's tricky in reciprocal space). You cannot compare the experience gained here with an optional couple of hours prescribed labwork once a fortnight during term.

In the end you should study what you enjoy. Because when it comes down to it there is a lot of interdisciplinary swapping. In these areas the number one concern is grades, then background. Of course for a more theoretical PhD, the TP will sit in better stead for the position than an experimental physicist of similar grades. It is equivalently the case that for a more experimentally based PhD (of which there are more) the exact reverse is true.

Son Goku

ApeXaviour wrote:

In these areas the number one concern is grades, then background. Of course for a more theoretical PhD, the TP will sit in better stead for the position than an experimental physicist of similar grades. It is equivalently the case that for a more experimentally based PhD (of which there are more) the exact reverse is true.

No issue with most of what you wrote, but grades is not that large of a concern in theoretical physics, ability is and this is reflected in what your references say about you.
A lot of postgrades don't really mind if you got a 2:1 or a 1, but they really care what your professors think of your ability.

nesf

ApeXaviour wrote:

But do you like maths?

This, in my opinion, is possibly the most important question to ask yourself. If you don't like maths don't even consider doing a degree in physics you can't avoid the maths really.


Even then, you might find it doesn't suit you. I did 3 years of Physics in UCC (which has more physics and less math than TP iirc but really there's not much of a difference) before having to drop out for personal reasons. After a few years when I was returning to college I realised that physics just wasn't for me. I loved the experimental side of things, and even managed to get work in the labs over the summers with one of the lecturers and get published, but the theory was something I just wasn't enjoying. Too big a workload of material you don't enjoy is not a receipe for a happy life imho. I transferred to first arts, took philosophy and economics and I'm a lot happier now. The courses aren't that demanding (in comparisson to what I was used to) so I get to devote most of my free time to dipping into some maths, science and philosophy I like outside of the course. This was something I simply didn't have time for when I was doing physics.

I still like physics and all, but I'm very happy that I'm not in it anymore. It's an odd subject in that just being alright in it is pretty much a waste of time. You don't want to be doing the degree unless you are good. Fortunately with the "baptism of fire" that seems to be the norm in physics degrees throughout the country, they seem to give you a good idea quite quickly if it's for you.


Oh and to the person who said for an experimentally minded person to do TP, what are you on about? That's plain terrible advice. They are practically two seperate disciplines with two different skill sets.


Edit: I don't think I made myself very clear above so...

Essentially when I was thinking about going back to college I realised something very important. What I loved about doing physics was the experimental side of things. More importantly it was simply doing research work, running experiments and the visceral pleasure of trying to come up with a conceptual explanation about what was going on. The thing was that it wasn't specifically the fact that it was physics problems that I was tackling that made it interesting.

This is why I think I stayed in physics for so long. I had mistakenly equated physics with experimental work in my mind rather than think of experimental work as a seperate entity tailored to suit a specific subject yet still independent. In the break between college I had gotten into what I was really interested in, the philosophy and methodology behind experimental work and this strongly influenced my decision to change to arts where I could get the best of both worlds.

Tar.Aldarion

It's all about whether you enjoy it, and if you enjoy it, you are probably good at it.
TP was my first choice on The CAO for so long, with other courses like pure physics, mathematical physics etc and um law. I still don't know if I should have done them or not, I chose Elec&Comp engineering in the end due to job opportunities and getting to make things, and it had physics, maths, etc making a robot that is controlled by my voice atm.
The way I see it, if I can still do some physics and maths in the course and on the side, and get a job out of it, I'm happy.
Good luck with whatever you choose.
Just do what you think you will like and remember you can change.