Proof God exists

Zombrex

Ok, CatStevens is now going to prove God exists

(god I hope this is good...)

Skeptics to the ready!! Marks ... set ... go ...

Crucifix

/me draws up a chair
But if this is just that Aquinas thing, I'm leavin'

bringitdown

Wtf?

5uspect

I'm sure the impending 500 post thread will follow the lines of Douglas Adams' supreme work:

"I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves that you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. Q.E.D."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing."

pH

Crucifix wrote:

/me draws up a chair
But if this is just that Aquinas thing, I'm leavin'

Sadly I doubt if we'll get anything nearly as challenging as Aquinas. Given his brief history here and on other forums I'm guessing it come down to:

God is perfect and knows everything
God wrote/inspired this book
This Book says God exists
QED : God Exists.

If it advances beyond that can someone PM me?

UU

Yeah like good luck to her! :rolleyes:

My thought on the whole subject is that there is no definate answer. In a sense, we are all "agnostic" - in a knowledge sense. I mean, belief or faith is different to knowledge.

Just because person X claims she believes in God (has faith is his existence), doesn't imply she knows that God exists. Likewise if she was an atheist about God. Maybe some people are just indifferent to the whole concept claiming that life is too short to attempt to answer an indefinate question and that it is impossible or improbable to know of a God's existence. Or maybe we, as humans, should at least be open to possibilities?

Zombrex

UU wrote:

Or maybe we, as humans, should at least be open to possibilities?

The problem is which possibilities.

You might be open to the possibility that a god exists.

Are you then also open to the possibility that anything and everything anyone has ever imagined at any point of history and in all humanity, could also exist?

I would imagine no

The idea of a god is some how given a false sense of validity as a concept because so many people believe in it, where as other ideas like the ideas the crazy man on the bus has, are dismissed out right by most people, even the agnostics. In reality there is no more logical reason to be agnostic about the teachings of say the Christian church, than those of a mad man on the DART line.

If you are going to logically decide to be open to the possibility of a god, then really you have to be logically open to the possibility of anythng and everything. At which point you tie-die your t-shirt and go live in the woods with the rest of the hippies!

Capt'n Midnight

Wicknight wrote:

Ok, CatStevens is now going to prove God exists

I doubt it.

He's far more likely to prove Muhammad exists. http://www.yusufislam.org.uk

scrattletrap

So when are we going to see this proof?

Capt'n Midnight

Euler wrote:

"Sir, (a+b^n)/n = x; hence God exists, answer please!"

:cool:

Dades

scrattletrap wrote:

So when are we going to see this proof?

And how much is he charging for it...

Schuhart

VLADIMIR: We're waiting for Godot.
ESTRAGON: (despairingly). Ah! (Pause.) You're sure it was here?
VLADIMIR: What?
ESTRAGON: That we were to wait.
VLADIMIR: He said by the tree. (They look at the tree.) Do you see any others?
ESTRAGON: What is it?
VLADIMIR: I don't know. A willow.
ESTRAGON: Where are the leaves?
VLADIMIR: It must be dead.
ESTRAGON: No more weeping.
VLADIMIR: Or perhaps it's not the season.
ESTRAGON: Looks to me more like a bush.
VLADIMIR: A shrub.
ESTRAGON: A bush.
VLADIMIR: A—. What are you insinuating? That we've come to the wrong place?
ESTRAGON: He should be here.
VLADIMIR: He didn't say for sure he'd come.
ESTRAGON: And if he doesn't come?
VLADIMIR: We'll come back tomorrow.
ESTRAGON: And then the day after tomorrow.
VLADIMIR: Possibly.
ESTRAGON: And so on.

Asiaprod

I am not holding my breath for this one.

CatStevens

Hi Wicknightand everyone
Ok, let me start this way, I want one Atheist to argue with me, I think it is better 'cause if everyone will answer the thread will become messy, 'cause I may answer his question which is in page 1 in page 3 but I don't mind anyway
So, what do you choose dudes , discussing with one or all or three

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

Asiaprod

CatStevens wrote:

I want one Atheist to argue with me,

No, you never get a single atheist. Don't you know nature abhors singularities:) You get us all together. Like carrion lions to the flood kill
Anyway, there is not anything to discuss yet, we are still waiting for the proof. Then we can decide.

CatStevens

Ok then
please try to make them short posts so I can reply to all your posts as fast as possible:) , as I said in the other thread, I will quote:
Post No: 36

Zulu wrote:

How about you prove he did?

CatStevens wrote:

maybe we should discuss about God's existence first, what do you think

robindch wrote:

Um, do you have any evidence for this which is more substantial than in some books written a very long time ago?

CatStevens wrote:

As I said to one of the members here, I think to discuss this we have to discuss God's existence first

So, let's start, (Bismillah) In the Name of Allah
How do you think this universe existed?
Allah stated in Qur'aan:
'' were they created from nothing or did they create themselves. Or did they create the heavens and earth? Nay, but they have no firm belief.''
A) Human were created from nothing or by nothing. This proposal violates basic reason. Something cannot come from nothing. Nothing cannot create something.
Humans created themselves. This is also an illogical and contradictory proposition. To create one's self, one must already exist. But to be created one must first not exist.
C) Humans were created by something already created. This implies in infinite regression of causes which ultimately means that humans do not exist. If C1 were caused by C2, and C2 by C3 to CN, then C1 cannot exist unless C2 does, etc. And CN means that it has no beginning.Consequently, C1 cannot exist. In other words, if human existence is preceded by an infinite amount of causes requiring an infinite amount of time to take place, it is the same as saying that they will never take place. Human existence thus becomes impossible.
_____________________________________
The remaining possibility is that humans and other created things were created by a being which is not itself created.
_____________________________________
Again: My question to every atheist, How do you think this universe existed, how did it come to the existence consider me your computer (non-believer) asking you such questions, you know to know God or discus Him we have to go through some questions, My answer is humans and other created things were created by a being which is not itself created what about yours let's start the discussion this way.

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

Funsterdelux

CatStevens wrote:

Again: My question to every atheist, How do you think this universe existed, how did it come to the existenceconsider me your computer (non-believer) asking you sch questions, you know to know God we have to go through some questions, My answer is humans and other created things were created by a being which is not itself created what about yours let's start the discussion this way

Im getting in on the action too, it has always existed, like your god.

CatStevens

Hi Funsterdelux

Funsterdelux wrote:

Im getting in on the action too, it has always existed, like your god.

Ok, So If God is eternal then so can be said to the universe, that's what ya mean, OK, Good, so you believe that eternity or something has always existed is possible good:) , Here is my other wondering:
*If you will spill three different colors in a white paper you will never have a picture of Wales' flowers! Or a picture of London's street markets! Even if you will sit there for zillions centuries!! Take for example the Puzzle COLOR="Gray"]game or toy that has a lot of pieces that you have to fit together[/COLOR or the Jigsaw puzzle COLOR="gray"]a picture cut up into many pieces[/COLOR would you believe me if I will tell you that a wind or something fitted these pieces together? Something which doesn't have a brain to think where it should put each piece!! to me, Impossible, who was controling and leading the processes, there must be someone clever who arranged my body's organs and nerves and gave them their functions.
________________________________
*Look at yourself and body it is too complicated and there are countless nerves in your body each nerve is linked to an organ and has its own function! Is that happened by chance by evolution? if we will assume that the human being was the first being for example who suited his teeth to eat? Who linked each nerve with a specific organ? Who? the nothingness or the randomness which cannot think of the purpose of doing such things like teeth to eat, ears to hear etc. when man has two holes in his nose to breath, did it happen by chance?, why does he have a digestive system, was it by chance??? Why there is a link between the digestive system and the urinary system, by chance? Why there is a pipe which delivers what you ate to your stomach by chance? Why you have teeth, was it decoration? Impossible, there must be someone who formed each creature, who made this magnificent system in the creatures of eating, breathing etc
BTW in Quraan Allah is talking to Atheists, Christians and all human beings, He said: And on the earth are signs for those who have Faith with certainty, And also in your ownselves. Will you not then see?
_________________________________
So again my question is: how do you explain the complexity and the purpose or functions of the great creatures? who was controling and leading the processes, if you didn't get me read the following examples

Isaac Newton, had invited a scientist-friend of his, a man who professed atheism to dine with him. Seeking to corner his friend with his own arguments, Newton placed a model of the solar system on his table and invited his friend to view it. Upon examining it, Newton’s friend exclaimed, “what a marvellous craftsmanship!” Who fashioned this exquisite model?” Newton replied casually, “This model has no maker, it materialised from nothing.” Disbelief writen large on his face, the friend asked, “What do you mean?” To this, Newton smiled and replied, “How can you my friend, insist that this model has to have a maker, while vehemently denying the existence of a divine Creator?”
Moral: If a model of the solar system must have a creator then what about the gigantic solar system itself? Let us worship that Creator who has created you and me.

"Is there any proof that God exists?" was asked, by an atheist, of Imam Abu Hanifa and he replied, "Forget it! At the moment, I am busy thinking about this ship. People tell me there is a big ship, it contains
different goods on board. There is no one to steer it, no one maintaining it. Yet, this ship keeps going back and forth; it even traverses big waves on the oceans; it stops at the locations that it is supposed to stop at; it continues in the direction that it is supposed to head. This ship has no captain and no one planning its trips."

The atheist who posed the question interrupted and exclaimed, "What kind of strange and silly thought is this? How can any intelligent person think that some thing like this can occur?"

Imam Abu Hanifa said, "I feel sorry about your state! You cannot imagine one ship running without some one looking after its affairs. Yet you think that for this whole world, which runs exactly and precisely, there is no one who looks after it, and no one owns it."

Imam Shaa'fi replied to the question in the following way, "The leaves of Toot (berries) are all but one. Each leaf tastes exactly the same. Insects, honey bees, cows, goats, and deer live off of it. After eating these the insects produce silk; bees produce honey; deer give musk (a special kind of scent), cows and goats deliver off-springs. Is this not clear evidence that one kind of leaf has so many qualities, and who created these qualities? It is the Khaliq (Creator) who we call Allah (S.W.T.) Who is the Inventor and the Creator."

Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal reflected on the question in the following way. He said, "There is an incredibly strong fort, it has no doors, there is no way to get in. In fact, there is not even a hole in it. From outside it glows like the moon and from inside it shimmers like gold. It is sealed from all sides, matter of fact it is air tight. Suddenly one of its doors breaks down, a living thing with eyes and ears, a beautiful looking animal appears yelling and wandering all over. So is not there a creator who made it possible for life to take place in this secured and closed fort? And is not this Creator better than humans? This Creator has no limit." Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal was referring to an egg which is closed from all sides but Allah (S.W.T.) The Khaliq (Creator) puts life in it and a chick pops out.

Please watch this short videoto understand my point more, please bear with me dear brothers and sisters

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

pH

My apologies to Crucifix, we do indeed have a variation of Cosmological argument. Though in this special case Cat seems not to be proving that God exists, but rather to prove that we (humans) don't exist.

I'm disappointed that he wouldn't provide us an original argument. This post is copied and pasted from one of his posts on Hip forums.

CatStevens

Hi pH
I wrote these posts and what I didn't wrote I quote them Why should I write them again if I already did somewhere else As I said before to discuss God's existence we have to go hrough some simple questions if you aren't interested you can leave

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

Zulu

CatStevens wrote:

If you will spill three different colors in a white paper you will never have a picture of Wales' flowers! Or a picture of London's street markets! Even if you will sit there for zillions centuries!!

Well I disagree. It is entirly possiable that you may by chance do it. ...assuming you sit there spilling colours randomly for an eternity.

Take for example the Puzzle game or toy that has a lot of pieces that you have to fit together or the Jigsaw puzzle a picture cut up into many pieces would you believe me if I will tell you that a wind or something fitted these pieces together?

If you had an eternity, ie and almost infinate amount of times for the wind to rearrange the pieces then perhaps it's possiable.

Impossible, who was controling and leading the processes,

chance.

there must be someone clever who arranged my body's organs and nerves and gave them their functions.

...or else they developed slowly over time; as a tree grows more complex over years from a simple seed to a massive complex orginism.

]Look at yourself and body it is too complicated and there are countless nerves in your body each nerve is linked to an organ and has its own function! Is that happened by chance by evolution?

Well, yes, thats to most commonly accepted idea. That we started off as very simple organic matter and throught sucessfull choice developed into more complex entities.

if we will assume that the human being was the first being for example who suited his teeth to eat?

Why should we; thats not true. Why don't we assume the truth.

Who linked each nerve with a specific organ? Who?

Evidently no one. Wheres the proof?

did it happen by chance?,

thats what it looks like... ...at least until proof is provided.

why does he have a digestive system, was it by chance???

with out it we wouldn't survive. Without it we wouldn't have energy. Without it the human body wouldn't function.

Why there is a link between the digestive system and the urinary system, by chance?

In order to get waste from our bodies. With ou it, our bodies would become poisioned.

Why there is a pipe which delivers what you ate to your stomach by chance?

so you may consume and digest food.

Why you have teeth,

to break up the food in order to digest it better.

Impossible, there must be someone who formed each creature, who made this magnificent system in the creatures of eating, breathing etc

Perhaps, but in order to convince someone this entity exists, you need to provide proof. Because you feel one thing (x) is impossiable, does not make another thing (y) impossiable.

So again my question is: how do you explain the complexity and the purpose or functions of the great creatures? who was controling and leading the processes

Thias dosen't prove the existance of god.

Dades

Good morning CatStevens.

Thank you for your arguments toward Intelligent Design. Whether or not those arguments are valid or not is irrelevant. Even if you convince people (good luck with that) that there must be a creator behind the universe you have no link to any god as created by humans.

Your god claims that he is responsible, but so does every god. That's what gods do. The "creator" did not leave a signature. Why do you assume the creator is your god and not somebody elses?

Your questions about evolution read like: "I don't understand it, so how could that possibly happen?" I suggest a day spent reading the Creationism thread could benefit you.

Your need for a creator is bourne of you need for answers. When you are realistic enough to recognise that we simply do not have the answers then you are freed from this necessity.

Funsterdelux

The Atheist wrote:

Good morning CatStevens.

Thank you for your arguments toward Intelligent Design. Whether or not those arguments are valid or not is irrelevant. Even if you convince people (good luck with that) that there must be a creator behind the universe you have no link to any god as created by humans.

Your god claims that he is responsible, but so does every god. That's what gods do. The "creator" did not leave a signature. Why do you assume the creator is your god and not somebody elses?

Your questions about evolution read like: "I don't understand it, so how could that possibly happen?" I suggest a day spent reading the Creationism thread could benefit you.

Your need for a creator is bourne of you need for answers. When you are realistic enough to recognise that we simply do not have the answers then you are freed from this necessity.

I hear that.

Sam Vimes

you're simply restating intelligent design. We know wbout intelligent design and have already discounted it. life is the result of 100000000000000 failed attempts. In an infinite universe anything, no matter how improbable, can happen.

complex life coming from a mixture of proteins in goo is highly improbable but a divine being is impossible. given those two choices, i choose the improbable one


and even if you do accept intelligent design, all that means is that something created the universe. it says nothing about the existence of god or allah or zeus or jupiter or ganesh or any god. a creator is vastly different to a god. the name of this thread is "proof god exists", not "proof a creator exists"


complex life came about through a series of mutations. something went wrong in the mitosis of a single celled organism and it didn't completely separate. this created a multi-cellular organism. as it turned out, this organism was able to survive much better than its single celled counter-parts and so it bred much more. one of the improved arganisms then split and another mutation occured, and so on and so on and so on. millions of mutations would have resulted in death for the offspring but every few thousand years, a good one happened and that new species flourished. this is evolution and is far more plausible than a divine being

CatStevens

Zulu

Zulu wrote:

Well I disagree. It is entirly possiable that you may by chance do it. ...assuming you sit there spilling colours randomly for an eternity.

Are you sure, when I said Wales' flowers, or Londons' Street Markets please concentrate,e.g. the colours , red colour shouldn't be in your eyes , the shadow of the flowers there must be someone to choose the suitable and the right amount of colours

Zulu wrote:

If you had an eternity, ie and almost infinate amount of times for the wind to rearrange the pieces then perhaps it's possiable.

My friend, that Puzzle game isn't from 5 pieces, compare it with our body each one has a function and purpose as well not only is in the right place

Zulu wrote:

chance.

but chance cannot think

Zulu wrote:

...or else they developed slowly over time; as a tree grows more complex over years from a simple seed to a massive complex orginism.

to me Allah created this tree and leading these processes try to read how the tree develops and about its complexity, we are living in an organized universe my dear, the sun is important to these trees as well? by chance?

Zulu wrote:

with out it we wouldn't survive. Without it we wouldn't have energy. Without it the human body wouldn't function.

See my friend I believe Allah created that to me to survive, the nothingness or randomness or chance or whateva cannot think, how did the nothingness knew there are food around me and I hould eat to survive?, IMO God created this univers and I can live in it

Zulu wrote:

In order to get waste from our bodies. With ou it, our bodies would become poisioned.so you may consume and digest food.to break up the food in order to digest it better.

And the chance knew that after eating we should get waste from our bodies? *watery eyes*I'm sorry Allah
anyway I think we reached the point which is God's existence is possible I don't know if any of you guys have ever read the Qur'aan or about Muhammad (and the reason of chosing him as the last messenger) , Myself I always believed in his existence my parents weren't atheists, Qur'aan just made things clearer to me, anyway so to convince ourselves more there are other ways
1) Experience, which many don't accept it,Myself Actually I read many true stories, people can have an experience which proves His existence, And those who experienc such things I think most of them do already believe in His existence or are sincerely and seriously looking for an answer, when you reach the point that his existence is possible, ask him seriously, God please convince me if you aren't a lie, not a mere question, try to look for the answer by reading etc
Jeremiah 33:3 'Call to me and I will answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things you do not know.
This is very true, just give it a real sincere chance , a chance from your deep Some people called him while they are prostrating, it gives good results , but unless your heart is prostrating your prostrating and call is meaningless, I wish you all will read the Qur'aan his message (as I claim)
read this story2)try to read what ppl call it (the word of God) Why Allah chose Muhammad and Jesus as prophets? to me Qur'aan (I read t the entire Qur'aan) & Muhammad, different type of experiences cinvinced me. so to many ppl, does Allah exist ? it is possible, yes, does his inexistence possible ? yes as well, so you aren't atheist, try the 2 things

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

Funsterdelux

Can I ask you two questions Cat Stevens man?

Have you any science education, basic biology, chemistry?

CatStevens

The Atheist

The Atheist wrote:

Good morning CatStevens.

Good morning^^ I hope you are enjouing your morning, Amen

The Atheist wrote:

Thank you for your arguments toward Intelligent Design

Welcome

The Atheist wrote:

Why do you assume the creator is your god and not somebody elses?

I believe that the creator my God is the creator and god of everything. maybe I lost you.

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

Baggly

You cannot discount chance simply because 'it cant think'.

i will have to agree with the opinion that you are proving creation rather than a god.

bubonicus

Hi Cat,

You are proof that god(Allah) exists. The very fact you belive in god is proof enough he exists.

I don't belive in sea horses and nobody is going to tell me otherwise.

CatStevens

Commander Vimes

Commander Vimes wrote:

life is the result of 100000000000000 failed attempts.

to many it is a possible theory

Commander Vimes wrote:

In an infinite universe anything, no matter how improbable, can happen. [/COLOR]
can??

Commander Vimes wrote:

the name of this thread is "proof god exists", not "proof a creator exists"

I believe Allah is God and the creator

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens

CatStevens

bubonicus wrote:

Hi Cat,

Hi bubonicus
btw guys and sisters I wish you didn't mess my post No 25

Peace & Love
Yours Sincerely
CatStevens