You learn something new everyday

cregser

From Wikipedia.

Computer games

Unlike most other countries, the Film Censors have no right to censor any form of video games. This led to an unusual situation where in the 1990s, UK owned game sales multiples sold the sanitised versions of Carmageddon, whilst Irish owned stores sold the uncut versions imported from the United States. Games may only be banned if they contain content which could be classed as pornography.

Ireland is a member of PEGI, but places no legal powers on its age recommendations. Retailers may attempt to enforce them at their discretion, but in the case of a protest they must sell the product to the customer.

I'm over 18, but if this is true then it still pisses me off. I remember being 15 and trying to buy Turok (UK rated 15) for N64 but not being allowed because I had no ID (at 15!). When you're that age ratings are the bane of your existance. But all those games I was denied were out of spitefullness (or even worse, moral obligation :rolleyes: ). To all underage boardsies read what it says above, you've only got to protest!

Just wanted to rant. Thanks for reading.

TheAlmightyArse

cregser wrote:

I'm over 18, but if this is true then it still pisses me off. I remember being 15 and trying to buy Turok (UK rated 15) for N64 but not being allowed because I had no ID (at 15!).

The same thing happened to me when I tried to buy Resident Evil (BBFC rated 15) way back when. I still remember the conversation with the shop assistant.

"Do you have any ID?"

"Er, no. Because I'm 15."

"Sorry, I can't give it to you without ID."

"I'm 15, though."

"Do you not even have a driver's license on you?"

"I'm 15."

Typical GAME employee, eh? *drags topic off-course*

Retr0gamer

cregser wrote:

I remember being 15 and trying to buy Turok (UK rated 15) for N64 but not being allowed because I had no ID (at 15!).

He was doing you a favour tbh

cregser

My experience was in HMV and the conversation went like yerself except I actually asked her "Where does a 15yr old get ID?". Her answer, "I don't know". In disbelief I walked for about 10mins to a GAME store where I purchased it for £10 less - which I suppose was an important lesson for my young-self on the ways of the world.

My topics don't usually take any course as such.

Dooom

TheAlmightyArse wrote:

"Do you not even have a driver's license on you?"

"I'm 15."

Roffle

Mr. K

The only game they refused to sell me was Resident Evil, when I was ten. That was in Electronics Boutique. Needless to say, I went over to GAME and I got it anyway. And so the warping began.

evad_lhorg

i sometimes enjoy using the "do you have ID" on a customer if they act like a knob towards me.

madrab

yeah i lovde being evil to young scumbags when i worked in xtravision

"schwaaaa i want gta schwaaaa"
"have you ID?"
"ill bleedin burst ya"

Zombrex

cregser wrote:

From Wikipedia.
I'm over 18, but if this is true then it still pisses me off. I remember being 15 and trying to buy Turok (UK rated 15) for N64 but not being allowed because I had no ID (at 15!). When you're that age ratings are the bane of your existance. But all those games I was denied were out of spitefullness (or even worse, moral obligation :rolleyes: ).

Video games censorship is self-regulated by the industry and the retailers, just like it is in the USA (where nothing can be legally censored due to the 1st ammendment).

The 1989 Video Recordings Act excepts video games from classification unless they are deemed unfit for public viewing unders section 3.1 of the act. A reason for a work being unfit for public viewing would be the work is likely to cause the viewer to commit a crime or incite hatred towards another person or group. So games can be banned, but if they are passed they have no age classification. This was 1989 remember, I doubt anyone imagined GTA 3 back then

The Pan Europe Games Information (PEGI) system is the industry self-regulatory body that classifies games on a Europe wide basis. The ratings of the system are normally upheld (supposed to at least) by most retails in Ireland, including Xtra-vision, Game and HMV (as far as I know), just as the ratings of the Electronic Software Ratings Boards (ESRB) are upheld by most retailers in the US, such as Wallmart (as was demonstrated by the famous Hot Coffee incident)

The retailer is within his legal right to refuse to sell you a product based on this age rating system, though it is not illegal if he does sell to an child that is under the age of the PEGI rating, as it would be for a DVD or Video.

I am actually surprised about how many people don't know this The place I worked any time I pointed out to a parent of a child the PEGI or ESRB rating of a game the parent always, and I mean always, said "but isn't that just how hard the game is, how old you have to be to be able to complete it". I think they were basing that idea of the age ratings they have on things like board games, that do attempt to indicate the difficulty of the product. I explained everything above and they would still simply say "no, I don't think that is true", take the game and walk out.

I've said it before, and I will say it again - People are dumb.

http://www.ifco.ie/ifco/ifcoweb.nsf/FAQsLookup2/6CF88A14336BF61B80256EEE005B3519?OpenDocument&faqquestion=Does+IFCO+classify+video+games?
http://www.acts.ie/zza22y1989.1.html#zza22y1989s3
http://www.pegi.info/pegi/index.do
http://www.esrb.org/ratings/ratings_guide.jsp

projectmayhem

staff ask for ID because if the manager sees you selling GTA to a 12 year old girl you could get reprimanded, as opposed to carding you because of the PEGI rating and it's impact on the law...

Rnger

when i was 17, my fragile mind was not ready to watch 18's films

Dont be at yourself

Wicknight wrote:

So games can be banned, but if they are passed they have no age classification.

I dont think that's true - as evidenced by games such as Grand Theft Auto not being banned by the censor, but carrying a a legally binding 18+ rating issued by the censor (and not by PEGI/ELSPA).

But as has been said, the problem lies more with misinformed or plain uncaring parents at this stage, than it does with the rating systems.

Zombrex

projectmayhem wrote:

staff ask for ID because if the manager sees you selling GTA to a 12 year old girl you could get reprimanded, as opposed to carding you because of the PEGI rating and it's impact on the law...

That is what I mean by self-regulated.

The PEGI rating has no legal significance, it is just a system for the retailers, and the parents, to tell without having to know about the game what age it should be for.

The manager will reprimand a staff member for selling a game to someone under the PEGI rating because most retailers in Ireland adhere to the self-regulation system. It is bad for corporate image not to, just as in America.

The retailers and industry also follow this system of self-regulation because they don't want state regulation, which costs the developer a lot more, force upon them.

Obviously the retailer is going to be more careful with the high profile "games are evil" games like GTA or Manhunt, especially if the game has a British "18" rating on it (which again has no legal significance in Ireland), is it is more obvious the child is buying an inapprorate game.

But there is no legal requirement that they do. The PEGI is not a legal system. There is no legal reason why a 5 year old cannot buy Grand Thief Auto 3 in Ireland, though it is doubtful that any retail would sell it to him (and one would have to ask where a 5 year old go the money)

Zombrex

NekkidBibleMan wrote:

I dont think that's true

You and half the country.

But it is.

NekkidBibleMan wrote:

- as evidenced by games such as Grand Theft Auto not being banned by the censor, but carrying a a legally binding 18+ rating issued by the censor (and not by PEGI/ELSPA).

Grand Theft Auto carries a British Board of Film Classification (BBFC) rating of 18 years plus (the red round label with a white "18") on it, as games fall under the same classification system as films in Britian. This is a British classification, and has no legal significance in Ireland.

Grand Theft Auto 3 is not classified in Ireland by the Irish Film Censor Office, and neither is any other video game. They are classified by the PEGI system. If you search for the game you will not find an entry on the IFCO website, in fact you won't find an option to search interactive media or games at all.

Zombrex

Oh I apologiese NekkdBibleMan (nice nick btw )

According to this website the IFCO has rated only 2 games in its history, those being Grand Theft Auto 3 and Manhunt, both by Rockstar games. Most likely because they do fall under section 3.1 of the 1989 act (inciting hatred and crime)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Film_Censor's_Office

I remember in 2004, around the time Manhunt came out, McDowell promised an over haul of the classification system for video games, preciesely because games were not being classifed by the IFCO. Not sure what happened about that, and now McDowell is well on his way to be supreme ruler of the republic I wonder if this move will be lost in the sands of a shifting cabinate if he leave the Justice Minster position

Dont be at yourself

This was all recently discussed on this forum, in this thread.

In that thread, I dropped an email to the IFCO requesting clarification on some matters, here is that email, and the response:

Email wrote:

Hi,

A discussion on popular Irish discussion website boards.ie has led to
some questions regarding the IFCO's role in the censorship of
video-games. According to your own website, video games are exempt from
classification unless "deemed prohibitable under section 3 (1) of the
the Act. [Video Recordings Act 1989]"

However, that is slightly vague. Who deems these games prohibitable?
IFCO, the publishers, or another party? What classifications may games
be assigned?

Furthermore, the wikipedia article (that tome of wisdom!) on censorship
in Ireland states that the IFCO has *no* right to censor any form of
video-game. Can you comment on this?

I realise that your office is very busy, but your help on clearing up
these ambiguities would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Brendan

IFCO's Response wrote:

Dear Brendan

Thank you for your enquiry regarding the classification of video games in
The Republic of Ireland.

In the first instance video games are exempt from classification under
Section 1 of the Video Recordings Act 1989, except where they are deemed
prohibitable under section 3 (i) of that Act.

In this context it is important to differentiate between classification and
censorship. We would very much see our prime role as classifiers and
providers of consumer information i.e. classification. However, we still
have the statutory role of censorship as defined in the Censorship of Films
Acts and Video Recordings Act, and it is a role we take seriously.
Accordingly we do have the power to make a prohibition order in respect of
a video game if it contravenes the relevant section.

Ireland subscribes to the PEGI rating system for video games along with 15
other countries (www.pegi.info). This is a system of detailed self
regulation by the publishers to achieve a classification in one of the
following age categories 3+; 7+; 12+; 16+ or 18+. All games rated 16+ or
18+ are independently examined to ensure they conform with the standards
and games in the other categories are also randomly checked.

Most of the games rated 18+ are also submitted to this office for
examination prior to release and we alone have the right to make a
prohibition order on any title in breach of the Act..

I hope this clarifies the situation.

Kind Regards

Ger Connolly
Deputy Film Censor
IFCO

So, according to the IFCO, they are not merely there to ban or pass games - but to classify them (presumably they mean via age ratings). One question still stands - who is it that refers games to the censor in the first place?

To Wicknight: I'm pretty sure (having worked for a long time in a videogame shop) that the IFCO has rated more than GTAIII and Manhunt. I'm open to correction on this though, but if anyone has a copy of, say, Vice City around, can they post up if it carries an IFCO rating?

Jeebus

I'm open to correction on this though, but if anyone has a copy of, say, Vice City around, can they post up if it carries an IFCO rating?

Vice City, for the PS2, does indeed have a nice big 18's from the FCO stamped on it.

But GTA 3 has a rating from the BBFC or someone on it.Neither have a PEGI rating that I could see.

I don't have San Andreas with me,or any other similar games, due to living with greedy students, but I will check them up soon !

stev2604

Vice city does indeed have an FCO stamp on it. I have 2 copies of San Andreas(1 got scratched). One copy has a red 18s sign(i think thats the british symbol) and the other has the PEGI symbol

evad_lhorg

well if you buy 18s games in GAME then youll more than likely get the UK version because they are all shipped from UK. only sony games come with the pegi in GAME because Sonys deliverys are separate.

projectmayhem

ireland seems to have a good system them. adhere to PEGI and anything 16+ is checked to make sure it's suitable to public consumption (as it were).

at the same time, mentioning boards to IFCO... they might sue us

cregser

Well this thread has attracted a more high-brow broadsie than I've become accustomed to (as of late).

NekkidBibleMan wrote:

So, according to the IFCO, they are not merely there to ban or pass games - but to classify them (presumably they mean via age ratings).

I vaguely remember a recent brief radio interview with a senior IFCO employee (it may have been a film review slot) that diverged into a short discussion about the IFCO's role. I remember him making that classification\censorship distinction again though, and that it was all to help the customer. I thought it was mentioned with a view to making the IFCO look like the good guys (to counteract the evocative word "Censor" in their name). I though the same of Ger's email above.

But it seems it wasn't a PR exercise because they do actually classify some games. So basically, Wikipedia is wrong :eek:. Someone should edit that.

Dont be at yourself

Wikipedia In Being Wrong Shocker!

Buceph

I think I heard that interview as well, and one or two beforehand. There was a big fuss made about the relaunching of the website, they wanted to make it clear that they were an information service first and foremost, with classification being the most obvious way they do it, and then the website being the next.

For games PEGI 16+ games, I wonder if they play them or if they're given a copy of the game to play. Its caused huge arguments in places where they just watch a video of the game.