Justice - Zero Tollerance????

democrates

Can we take it ISAW that you are in favour of another pd/ff coalition after the next election?

Seems you specialise in attacking anyone expressing disquiet with the status quo.

Delboy05

by God, ISAW,you are pedantic....got any 'amazing' ideas yourself or you just going to spend your days going through eveyones arguments picking out anamolies!!!
Are you 1 of the school of 'give more resources to downtordden communties and all will be right with the world'???? Well sorry, I don't an extra community centre, or more football pitces or going to get life criminals back on the straight and narrow

And to agree with your final suggestion!!!, yes lock everyone up, and by everyone I mean repeat offenders and serious criminals. Put them in jail and throw away the key....leave the law abiding tax paying citizen in peace.
And yes prisons are holiday camps....Tv's/video games in cells, no obligatory educational classes or work,no work training, full contact visits....

send out the message, you commit crime and your going to jail...for a long time and a hard time....

ISAW

democrates wrote:

Can we take it ISAW that you are in favour of another pd/ff coalition after the next election?

Seems you specialise in attacking anyone expressing disquiet with the status quo.

I dont attack people. I attack their argument.

These boards have their quotta of anti government elements.
Everything to them is the fault of the governemnt. some of them are members of opposition parties. when the same parties are criticised on the same basis they may switch their opinion. just like Fox news lambasted the democrats and then switched to supporting the Republicans when they got into power.
then there are those who think that changing the system will create some sort of utiopia.those usually vote for or are members of parties who never were in government. If and when such parties get into government they will either have to compramise of leave them claiming to be to "only true" believers with thir one percent of the vote. It is the mentality of the "spoil" voter.

I respect people in all parties. Any party in government cant just stand still so they cant get by being a "status quo". some people think that they can only deal with their party. this is also silly. I accept FG LAB SF or whoever the Dail decides is the government. It is stupid for a FG person to say "well we are not in governemnt so I will just have to wait till we are" . Being in government only really means you control the budget and the agenda for legislation and some public positions. Most of the money legislation and position is held by civil servants who are never voted out! the idea that a radical ideology will change the face of ireland is a tired metaphor. though maybe nationalism and having a 32 county state would have a big difference.

So I am happy to say that TD and Senators are by and large a decent bunch and am happy to attack the arguments of those who attack them but cant get elected themselves.

ISAW

Delboy05 wrote:

by God, ISAW,you are pedantic....got any 'amazing' ideas yourself or you just going to spend your days going through eveyones arguments picking out anamolies!!!

yes and yes.

Are you 1 of the school of 'give more resources to downtordden communties and all will be right with the world'???? Well sorry, I don't an extra community centre, or more football pitces or going to get life criminals back on the straight and narrow

I do think disadvantage should be compensated. i am more concerned with why people are going off the straight and noarrow than in saving those who have. Prevention is better than cure.

And to agree with your final suggestion!!!, yes lock everyone up, and by everyone I mean repeat offenders and serious criminals.

No I meant everyone. You should read "venus on the halfshell" by kilgore trout in which a whole planet was eventually in prison. even the staff of the prison.

Put them in jail and throw away the key....leave the law abiding tax paying citizen in peace.
And yes prisons are holiday camps....Tv's/video games in cells, no obligatory educational classes or work,no work training, full contact visits....

But how can one lock people up and throw away the key and then also provide work and education?

send out the message, you commit crime and your going to jail...for a long time and a hard time....

they have that system in the US. How has it helped crime to decrease? You probably also support the death penality or public execution. do you? that didnt help crime to decrease either.

I believe you are confusing reaction with results.

Villain

ISAW wrote:

Piece of advice. record you sources. If you cant support what you state as a a fact then why state it?

I have recorded my sources and I have stated them and I can support EVERY SINGLE FACT. I stated that my sources were the Garda Annual reports and the CSO (Central Statistic Office) now those sources will provide you with all the stats I have provided you with and a lot more. I stand by my facts 100%, if you think you can prove them wrong please try and do so. I have provided the facts and the sources now please provide evidence that my facts are wrong or just move on.

ISAW wrote:

thats not the point! the point is that could others be hurt if this person is out on bail. Furthermore saying someone will suffer from a person not yet convicted of a crime is per judging them and that is not just.

You mean physically hurt do you? because I know people who have been hurt in a serious manner by been in a house when a theft was taking place, now the offenders didn't touch them but the event left them mentally distressed for a long time. The justice system should remand people on Bail if they believe there is any chance of them offending again.

ISAW wrote:

But that is my main point. the poeple you hear about in the press have maybe 50 offences while on bail. I said it was possible. It is. YOU are the one who brought up the stats. They dont list how many offenders. I am sure the gardai have those stats. But it is for you not I to get them. i slao spoke to a person who did jury service last week. It was a rape case. women on the jury were actually sorry for the guy. anyway a majority verdict was returned on sexual assault but none on rape. Only after did they find out it was the third time he was up and he had other sexual charges pending. which is a situation to which I do not object.

Hold on second you are the person that said the 500 serious crimes as you call them could have been commited by only 50 people, not me, if your going to make a claim please back it up or tell us your source. Any Stat I have brought up I have can gurantee is 100%, your just guessing I take it?

ISAW wrote:

a prision system is not a justice system! Locking people up or the threat of it is not a solution.
By the way you contradict yourself. You claim there is not enough punishment and also claim that they people should fear this punishment.

And it is much wider than the prisions. It is a social issue.

The prison system is part of the Justice system as it the courts and the gardai and without all those parts a person can't end up in Jail. I don't see how I contradict myself I think there isn't enough punishment and I also think people should fear the punishment, you can have both without contradiction, just hopefully having one will lead to a drop in the other over time.

ISAW wrote:

But what is "headline" ? What does it mean?

I have already told you its the offences that are listed by the Gardai as headline offences, I can list them again if you like, the gardai are the one who decided call them headline offences, I suggest you contact them to find out why.

ISAW wrote:

Yes it does. What has that got to do with refusing bail?

I was simply pointing out the fact that people from the Moyross area have stated crime goes unpunished on a daily basis, I wasn't referring directly to the bail issue. You might have got it confused seen as I had to ask you the question three times before you answered.

ISAW

Mick86 wrote:

I presume the Gardai know the names of the people who are the root cause of any particular area's problems. These people should be interned for many years.

this is not a jopb for the gardai. It is fopr the courts to determine. It is called seperation of powers.

If perchance someone is actually convicted of a serious crime then the maximum sentence should be imposed without any parole.

what is the point of having a parole system then?

ISAW

irish1 wrote:

I have recorded my sources and I have stated them and I can support EVERY SINGLE FACT.

No actually I provided the reference. I had to go and do the research for you. I should not have to do that. You shoule support your own arguments.

You mean physically hurt do you? because I know people who have been hurt in a serious manner by been in a house when a theft was taking place, now the offenders didn't touch them but the event left them mentally distressed for a long time. The justice system should remand people on Bail if they believe there is any chance of them offending again.

But you are talking assault ar aggrivated burglary then and not simple burglary or larceny which are crimes against property. Do you accept what I am saying?

Hold on second you are the person that said the 500 serious crimes as you call them could have been commited by only 50 people, not me, if your going to make a claim please back it up or tell us your source.

I stated could have and not were. I I claimed they were I would have to get the gardai files on them. I am going by my experience of multiple offenders as reported in the press. By my experience in community relations and in talking to community gardai sargeants inspectors and superintendents. and by jurists in rape and sexual assault cases. Take child abuse for example. It is unlikely an abuser commits once and then stops forever. Most who are charged may have hundreds of offences. You will find in the tribunals that within institutions there was maybe a dozen or two staff. Most didnt abuse but a minoriry of three or four say were responsible for thousands and thousands of cases of abuse.

Any Stat I have brought up I have can gurantee is 100%, your just guessing I take it?

SAdly it was me who had to guarantee you stats - and I didnt even get thanks for that! as you can see from the above I am not just guessing but I do not know it is 50 for a fact. I do know it cant be more than 500. I would expect a lot less since the permanent prison population is about 6000 I guess.

The prison system is part of the Justice system as it the courts and the gardai and without all those parts a person can't end up in Jail. I don't see how I contradict myself I think there isn't enough punishment and I also think people should fear the punishment, you can have both without contradiction, just hopefully having one will lead to a drop in the other over time.

I dont think the state should waste time and money because of your hopes. Also if the criminals are not afraid of the punishment how is making it more severe going to deterr them?

I have already told you its the offences that are listed by the Gardai as headline offences, I can list them again if you like, the gardai are the one who decided call them headline offences, I suggest you contact them to find out why

that isnt my point at all. You are giving a circular definition. So what what the Gardai call them. The issue here is about whether bail should be refused to people who commit offences out on bail. I suggest many of the offences were not as serious as you are making out. You are entitled to believe that any crime while out on bail should revoke the bail even not paying a traffic ticket or a TV licence. But again it is not for me to make your argument for you. Peop-le are wont to say I am putting words in your mouth. and I will also ask you to support this assertion and you will have to research it.

I was simply pointing out the fact that people from the Moyross area have stated crime goes unpunished on a daily basis.

does it go unreported also? I did not know you were referring to that area.

constitutionus

the fact is it is the governments job to protect its citizens,they were going on about zero tollerance 10yrs ago and instead of tackling crime they stood by while the population of the capital alone increased by a million people with a practical non existant increase in gardai. the minister has come out in the last week saying they wont have the 14000 gardai on the street before the next election. his estimate was christmas 07 at best.

the real problem is we've got a minister for justice who thinks he can legislate out of the problem when the crux of the matter is many areas have no police force meaning if anything does happen it'll be two hours before a gard gets on the scene. hell the increase in gardai in the cities was achieved by drafting the country gardai instead . do you really think one of these scumbags gives a toss about an ASBO? its a peice of paper to them and they'll wipe their arse with it. sweet jesus some of these guys have 80 to 100 convictions before theyre 16! what they understand is a gardai on the beat patroling the area, preferably two removing the opertunity to commit crimes but their non existant. hell i dont even know my local gardai and i live around the corner from the station!

i agree judges should be open to scrutiney by the public, prehaps having to renew their positions in an election. because the god honest truth is most of em are so far divorced from the reality of the life of people in places like moyross that its an alien world to them. and i too think concurrent sentences are obscene, but besides that the system does work. its just the fact the government havent resouced all services to keep up with the increse in population that has left us in the situation where theyre falling apart. look at clondalkin and tallaght, two of the biggest urban areas in the country and theyre serviced by one fire station wedged between the two. if two fires break out ,one in tallaght and one in clondalkin, its the size of the fire that dictates where the engines go. what the hell choice is that for a professional to have to make what does that do to a guy knowing he's saving your life at the expense of someone else? thats the situation our government have left our services in

its simple, we dont need ASBOs. we dont need more gardai powers ,draconian leglislation or more prisons (though it would help if they opened the ones they closed:D ) we just need the manpower! we're trying to police a 21st century ireland with an 80's police force (and 60s tech)

Victor

constitutionus wrote:

you know the moyross thing reminds me of when i was growing up in tallaght. the reason why vigilantes we're running around the place wasnt because of some mad IRA thing. it was because we had 50 thousand people and no gardai. christ i was 16 before i seen my first gardai and the poor fecker was scared out of his mind hanging onto his alsatian for dear life. even now despite getting divisional status over seven years ago theres still only 53 to 56 gardai on shift at anytime to police 100 thousand people. thats a bloody joke. if you take the number of gardai as 14000 now ,which it isnt, and divide it by the population of the island that means providing you take my higher figure of 56 gardai on shift then the people of tallaght have a gardai to citizen ratio of 5 times less than the national average (1 gardai for every 321 people vrs 1 gardai for every 1786 in tallaght)

You are not comparing the figures correctly. It takes approximately 5.1* people to cover one post on a 24 x 365 basis.

"53 to 56 gardai on shift at anytime" means 270 to 285 based in Tallaght.

---

*

24*365=8760 hours in a year

((52 weeks x 5 days)- 20 days holidays - 11 bank holidays) x 8 hours = 229* 8 = 1832

1832/8760 = 4.8 add in training days, etc and you get 5.1

ISAW

Delboy05 wrote:

by God, ISAW,you are pedantic....got any 'amazing' ideas yourself or you just going to spend your days going through eveyones arguments picking out anamolies!!!

several fallacies here.
Proving a negative. If you claim A is true and I say "no it isnt prove it is" it is fallacious to say "prove it isnt" . also if you have theory A and I say that I do not agree with you and ask you to prove theory A I do not have to propose theory B as an aklternative. Also if one is not clear and a post is full of anomalies then one should not blame others for highlighting them.

constitutionus

Victor wrote:

You are not comparing the figures correctly. It takes approximately 5.1* people to cover one post on a 24 x 365 basis.

"53 to 56 gardai on shift at anytime" means 270 to 285 based in Tallaght.

---

*

24*365=8760 hours in a year

((52 weeks x 5 days)- 20 days holidays - 11 bank holidays) x 8 hours = 229* 8 = 1832

1832/8760 = 4.8 add in training days, etc and you get 5.1

which shows how bad things are cause theres only circa 150 gardai allocated to tallaght gardai station.by your figues i should be dividing the active gardai by 5 instead of 3 (which i did to cover a three shift period )meaning the coverage is even worse than i thought. not to mention even if they did have 56 on duty at anyone time. if one percent of the people theyre covering decide to go mental and attack them on drugs that 17 people to every gardai. what kinda chace does the gardai have?

christ no wonder they couldnt handle the love ulster/dublin riots

democrates

ISAW wrote:

I dont attack people. I attack their argument.

Important distinction, though you can't entirely seperate the dancer from the dance, eg if a politicians ideas are labelled utopian dreams is that politician not somewhat labelled as a utopian dreamer? That said, I accept your intent in good faith, for continuous improvement through objective discourse we have to avoid identifying with our own views.

ISAW wrote:

These boards have their quotta of anti government elements.
Everything to them is the fault of the governemnt. some of them are members of opposition parties. when the same parties are criticised on the same basis they may switch their opinion. just like Fox news lambasted the democrats and then switched to supporting the Republicans when they got into power.
then there are those who think that changing the system will create some sort of utiopia.those usually vote for or are members of parties who never were in government. If and when such parties get into government they will either have to compramise of leave them claiming to be to "only true" believers with thir one percent of the vote. It is the mentality of the "spoil" voter.

I've no doubt some posters fall into those categories. I'm in no party, and have no political allegiance, all I care about is what systems/measures may yield a better society. Sadly, any suggestion of fundamental reform easily attracts a 'utopia' label which is too often a convenient way to avoid giving alternatives serious consideration.

ISAW wrote:

I respect people in all parties. Any party in government cant just stand still so they cant get by being a "status quo". some people think that they can only deal with their party. this is also silly. I accept FG LAB SF or whoever the Dail decides is the government. It is stupid for a FG person to say "well we are not in governemnt so I will just have to wait till we are" .

I've argued with an FG-supporting acquaintance on this before. He claimed the job of opposition was to point out government failures. He's still uncomfortable with the idea that giving out is not enough to get elected, they also need to convince voters they won't be worse.

Of course it's happened before that ideas from the oppositions programme for govt have been swiped by the encumbents, so I can understand them holding off until close to election day to put their wares on display.

ISAW wrote:

Being in government only really means you control the budget and the agenda for legislation and some public positions. Most of the money legislation and position is held by civil servants who are never voted out! the idea that a radical ideology will change the face of ireland is a tired metaphor. though maybe nationalism and having a 32 county state would have a big difference.

Seems you're not happy with the power and lack of accountability of civil servants, but have you any serious suggestion to solve it?

ISAW wrote:

So I am happy to say that TD and Senators are by and large a decent bunch and am happy to attack the arguments of those who attack them but cant get elected themselves.

That's what I suspected. Fair play for being fortcoming about that motivation, and not leaving the impression that it was purely a non-partisan opposition to the ideas themselves.

Delboy05

ISAW wrote:

I do think disadvantage should be compensated. i am more concerned with why people are going off the straight and noarrow than in saving those who have. Prevention is better than cure.

people are'nt just going off the 'straight and narrow'...some were off it from day1 and others have been led that way by their elders - as the Moyross social worker on the Last Word said the other day, the people cuaisng the trouble today are only following in the footsteps of their grandparents, parents,cousins uncles etc. Some people are just born bad...they have no interest in doing any good in this worls, just living off the back of other people. No matter what they get in life... they will be bad.

As for disadvantage....there are more jobs now than ever before. No child has to leave school early if they don't want to....there has never been more college places and more funding for the 'disadvantaged to attend'. I cannot stand those arguments about the disadvataged....all some people want to do is collect as many benefits as they can, go to the local 4 nights a week and all day Sat and Sun, and smoke 30 a day - hell, they can't even have a wholesome dinner ready in the evenings for their kids, instead they spend twice as much as the cost of a good dinner on sending their kids to the chipper. I see this every day in Dublin and it's at it's most obvious on the first Tuesday of every month when the child beneift arrives in. Disadvatage my ar$e....

ChillyS

I agree with whoever it was said that harsh sentances and the like haven't worked, they haven't why else would we have 4th and 5th time re offenders?

Maybe it's time to look at the system, it obviously needs an enormous overhaul, however that's in an ideal world :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato

ChillyS wrote:

I agree with whoever it was said that harsh sentances and the like haven't worked, they haven't why else would we have 4th and 5th time re offenders?

I don't think we have ever had a harsh sentencing policy in this country, so how do we know whether it works or not?
We do know that there are many serious offences committed when the offender is out on remission from their previous sentence. You can't re-offend if you're still in prison.
I would say the purpose of prison is to protect society first, and to rehabilitate second. We seem to have forgotten purpose no.1 (not that we're doing much of a job at no.2 either.) Some violent/sexual offenders will never be safe to release into society (with a long string of convictions to prove it) yet we're giving them lenient sentences and remission on top.

ISAW

ninja900 wrote:

I don't think we have ever had a harsh sentencing policy in this country, so how do we know whether it works or not?

I beg to differ
Ireland has had:
the death penalty
Public execution
Hard labour
deportation for life
Hanging drawing and quatering
None of them lowered crime


One counter example I can think of that strong action is not a deterrent is the fairly much failed 1916 Rising. The harsh tactics of executing the leaders (one of them - Connolly - unable due to wounds to sit let alone stand was shot tied into a chair) resuolted in an absolute success for Republicans!

We do know that there are many serious offences committed when the offender is out on remission from their previous sentence.

Do we? how many? what is "serious"? Is bag snatching "serious crime" ? Is burglary?

You can't re-offend if you're still in prison.

Oh but one can! Drugs are appaently rampant.

I would say the purpose of prison is to protect society first, and to rehabilitate second.

Protect society against violent criminals? How many violent crimes are happening on bail?

We seem to have forgotten purpose no.1 (not that we're doing much of a job at no.2 either.) Some violent/sexual offenders will never be safe to release into society (with a long string of convictions to prove it) yet we're giving them lenient sentences and remission on top.

But thi is a tiny amount of the number of crimes committed on bail. Hard cases make bad laws.

ISAW

Delboy05 wrote:

... the people cuaisng the trouble today are only following in the footsteps of their grandparents, parents,cousins uncles etc...

and we xhould do nothing about this? wer should forget about breaking the cycle? do you apply the same reasoning to Northern Ireland? Or to Arabs and jews? So why say we should get harder on the problem and not treat the causes?

Some people are just born bad they have no interest in doing any good in this worls, just living off the back of other people. No matter what they get in life... they will be bad.

Aha! so it is just a question of chance? Can you please explain then why there are only a few "black spots" of disadvantage in Dublin and Limerick and why 99 per cent or so of the people who are randomly born bad all happen to be boirn into these areas? Surely you might think there is some contribution factor at work in addition to people being "born bad"?

As for disadvantage....there are more jobs now than ever before.

It isnt just a question of jobs but did you ever offer someone a job? What if they came from a "bad" area where all these people who are born bad are from? What if they had been in prison? Mind you the rate of unemployment and illiteracy is high both in the prison population and in these areas so it is unlikely you would be offering them jobs. You are talking about areas with 50 to 80 percent unemployment in one of the richest nations on earth!

No child has to leave school early if they don't want to....

In fact I know some teachers who have children who come to school and love it because it is safe and they get a breakfast and maybe lunch when they wont get fed and will get physical or sexual abuse or intimidation at home. Not likely they will stay in school even though they prefer to be there.

there has never been more college places and more funding for the 'disadvantaged to attend'. I cannot stand those arguments about the disadvataged....

and having worked in that policy area I can tell you that in spite of the plans there have never been a significant increase in the number of people form disadvantaged backgrounds attending college.

all some people want to do is collect as many benefits as they can, go to the local 4 nights a week and all day Sat and Sun, and smoke 30 a day - hell, they can't even have a wholesome dinner ready in the evenings for their kids, instead they spend twice as much as the cost of a good dinner on sending their kids to the chipper. I see this every day in Dublin and it's at it's most obvious on the first Tuesday of every month when the child beneift arrives in. Disadvatage my ar$e....

But your example already shows the CHILDREN ARE at a disadvantage because of the selfishness of parents. Disadvantage isnt all about money.

Sgt. Sensible

Delboy05 wrote:

Some people are just born bad...they have no interest in doing any good in this worls, just living off the back of other people. No matter what they get in life... they will be bad.

When I think about the sorts of disgusting little holes I was paying up to a third of my net income to live in, that's how I've felt about every landlord I ever had in Dublin...

Sgt. Sensible

ninja900 wrote:

I don't think we have ever had a harsh sentencing policy in this country, so how do we know whether it works or not?

Well during the civil war, one general on the pro-treaty side liked to handcuff captured anti-treaty guys to trees and execute them by lobbing hand grenades at them. The effect on anti-treaty sentiment was not noted unfortunately, however anti-treaty forces (fianna fail) have done quite welll since then.

Mick86

ISAW wrote:

this is not a jopb for the gardai. It is fopr the courts to determine. It is called seperation of powers.

Newsflash. The Court System is a joke and a failure.

ISAW wrote:

what is the point of having a parole system then?

Abolish the parole system.:rolleyes:

Dyr

ISAW wrote:

and having worked in that policy area I can tell you that in spite of the plans there have never been a significant increase in the number of people form disadvantaged backgrounds attending college.

Really? well working in that policy area didnt do ye much good, I can tell you now that kids from disadvantaged areas do not attend college because they simply cannot afford third level education. I've been there and i've seen kids who were bright enough and motivated enough loose out simply because your parents income is a deciding factor in second and third level education in this country

And in spite of the "plans" (what "plans" are these? stuff like BITE? lol) the dropping of college of fees pretty much screwed kids from poor backgrounds in the favour of middle classes, and under a labour minister too :rolleyes:

Hotblack Desiato

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

Well during the civil war, one general on the pro-treaty side liked to handcuff captured anti-treaty guys to trees and execute them by lobbing hand grenades at them.

Completely irrelevant to this discussion.
I'm presuming that no death sentence had been handed down in these cases, and it's likely no trial took place at all, or if it did it was under martial law.
We're discussing the enforcement of law as applicable to civilians in the ROI in accordance with our laws and our Constitution.

ISAW

Bambi wrote:

And in spite of the "plans" (what "plans" are these? stuff like BITE? lol)

No i mean I sat on ppolicy comittees for r third level college which developed its own system of assessment which was not just to do with money . we considered whether siblings or parents had gone to third level, physical or mental disabliity, background (e.g. someone who just retired after 40 years service and hadent seen the inside of a school since 1960.) You cant just lump 2disadvantage" into an ecomomic group and say "it is all about money" as you claim above.

the dropping of college of fees pretty much screwed kids from poor backgrounds in the favour of middle classes, and under a labour minister too :rolleyes:

I agree with you here 100 per cent.

Villain

Richard Bruton has been attacking McDowell's record again stating that two out of three serious crimes in Dublin go undetected and that detection rates have been falling since 2000.

McDowell's response: Ah well now thats just because people are reporting more crime and hey I know we have been in Government for nearly 10 years but we'r going to fix this soon, oh and remember detection rates were low when Bruton and co were in government too.

Ok he didn't say that exactly but I'm not far off protraying what he said.

Meanwhile in Moyross a young man is shot dead in the same estate that those 2 young children were badly burned after a fire attack on their car.

*Edit.

Oh yea McDowell also said that when he spoke to the Garda Comissioner he stated that the detection in Dublin is on par with other Euopean cities!

So we might have a problem but don't dare say we should fix it because other cities are just as bad!! Seriously and this guy is Tanaiste now?

Villain

Seriously how hell could this have happened:

Suspected killer freed over delays.

A MURDER suspect who fled Ireland after being charged with manslaughter 14 years ago has been freed from prison.

The man was released because the Director of Public Prosecutions failed to produce a book of evidence in time.

Despite the State being granted two extensions and a formal warning by Cloverhill District Court that the suspect Gregory Conway (36) - of no fixed abode - would be freed unless it presented its case, he is now a free man.

ISAW

irish1 wrote:

Seriously how hell could this have happened:

The fact that he was charged with manslaughter and nobody turned up is past tense and long gone. The fact that a case was not built against him means that he has a right to go about his business. The case was struck out and could still be reentered.

Villain

Emm sorry but do you not see the issue here?? The DPP were given extra time to prepare the book of evidence and were even warned to have it ready but they failed to do so.

So because of their inaction a man charged with the mansluagther of one man and the murder of another is free purely because the DPP failed to do their job. Surely someone has to be held responible for this?

ISAW

irish1 wrote:

Emm sorry but do you not see the issue here?? The DPP were given extra time to prepare the book of evidence and were even warned to have it ready but they failed to do so.

So because of their inaction a man charged with the mansluagther of one man and the murder of another is free purely because the DPP failed to do their job. Surely someone has to be held responible for this?

The manslaughter was years ago I believe. so I dont think you have anything there. But i agree . and no doubt someone will be held accountable (though the way the senior civil service has become untouchable makes me sceptical). But the question what how could this be allowed to happen. I only thought what a judge would do when confronted with these circumstances. He did exactly as he should.

Villain

The Judge was 100% correct he had no choice, the manslaughter charge was years ago so he was allowed bail on that charge as he argued that the passage of time would deny him the right of a free trial, this is yet to be proven.

The DPP has to be held responsible and the Minister for Justice should come out and state that his department will carry out an enquiry to establish how this happened and make sure it doesn't happen again.

However the Minister seems too busy talking stamp duty and the 2.5 billion that government doesn't need.

constitutionus

irish1 wrote:

The Judge was 100% correct he had no choice, the manslaughter charge was years ago so he was allowed bail on that charge as he argued that the passage of time would deny him the right of a free trial, this is yet to be proven.

The DPP has to be held responsible and the Minister for Justice should come out and state that his department will carry out an enquiry to establish how this happened and make sure it doesn't happen again.

However the Minister seems too busy talking stamp duty and the 2.5 billion that government doesn't need.

investigations into state departments like the DPP and the attorney general arent exactly michael macdowels style . just see any ot the tribunals