What if Kurt Cobain hadnt killed himself?

Earthhorse

Uncut have a little sidebar timeline in this month's issue covering this very topic. Unfortunately, they duck the issue by basically having him never release any music again.

Personally I'd like to think that had he lived he might have cleaned up, released an album that was bad or mediocre, either through Nirvana or as a solo effort, and realised that doing so wasn't such a big deal after all. There was a nice quote from Neil Young in an interview he gave to Time recently where he says he wishes he'd had the chance to talk to Cobain and just say, "Keep recording music. Or don't. Whatever." In other words, to maybe not take the whole thing so seriously.

What happened to Cobain was tragic. As Doctor J says, when this happens to anyone it's tragic. I have little interest in anything Scott Weiland's done since Tiny Songs...but I sure am glad he's alive and I'll bet his family and friends are too. I think the very people who resent the fact that Cobain's suicide made him into an icon are perhaps more guilty of viewing him this way themselves, rather than simply being able to strip all that back and see him as a human being.

StormWarrior

If Kurt Cobain hadn't killed himself, then there would be alot more really crap music in this world.

gustavo

StormWarrior wrote:

If Kurt Cobain hadn't killed himself, then there would be alot more really crap music in this world.

:rolleyes: I suppose he was just unlucky that their album sales were so high , if they were more obscure people like you would be hailing them as genii

StormWarrior

gustavo wrote:

:rolleyes: I suppose he was just unlucky that their album sales were so high , if they were more obscure people like you would be hailing them as genii

Not at all. Some of my favourite bands are the big names like Europe and Def Leppard.

JC 2K3

Ph3n0m wrote:

Nope Nirvana played the point in 1991 as far as I remember

Nope. They supported Sonic Youth on their Europeon tour and played in the Top Hat club in Dublin(now apartments) and somewhere in Cork just before/as they were getting famous. Never a big headlining show when they were famous though.

Oh, and I'd never have heard of the Meat Puppets had Kurt not killed himself, and Meat Puppets are like, the greatest band ever - so thank you Kurt.

Dragan

MagnumForce wrote:

Ive read it but unfortunatly cant remember anything about it, except the "Music With Rock In". and im not a fan of reading books more than once, give me the jist to remind me there

Sorry for taking so long to come back to the thread!

His point was that part of the mystique and the appeal of an artist who "lives fast, dies young" is the songs they never get the write, the whole "what if scenario" is in fact, what makes them great.

The greatest songs they ever wrote were the ones they never got to write, but we desperately wish they had a chance to.

And yet, if they got to write them, they never could have lived up to the expectation we have for them.

red_ice

this post should be renamed 'what if courtney love didnt have kurt killed'...

Acid_Violet

red_ice wrote:

this post should be renamed 'what if courtney love didnt have kurt killed'...

YOU sir, (unless being cleverly sarcastic) are an idiot! She revived him several times when he OD'd? Why would she have killed him when she threatened to prove that 'she would follow him to hell and back' and thus held a gun to her head? He had a kid, there was something seriously wrong with him if he wasn't able to think clear enough to see that he was

If Kurt was still alive, there'd be a few less kids hanging around central bank and a few less suicides and self-imposed depression. Contentious as that is, I stand by it. Nirvana are totally over-rated because although they were good people want to feel like there was so much more to them but they were robbed of it by his death.

Also, does anyone else notice the bitter irony that he didn't want to be a global icon or a commercial pretentious poster-boy, yet millions have been made by putting his face on hoodies and t-shirts. He's a bit like Ché Guevara in that way. Even his journals, the first lines of which denote that he didn't want people to read them when he was dead, were published and made millions.

Acid_Violet

scouser.tommy wrote:

I remember a year or two ago the paper at my college did a short, humourous exploration of this hypothesis, whereby it was instead Billy Corgan who died, thus gaining an even more legendary status and success, while Cobain simply faded away into the abyss of talentlessness.

Do you mean that what would've happened to KC happened to BC? Pumpkins are my favourite band ever. Love them to bits, and Corgan is definitely one of the most talented song-writers of our generation at least.

senordingdong

I read a few murder conspiracies myself.
Good entertaining read...can't make any statement about the 'fact's involved anyway.

byte

Ph3n0m wrote:

yup 1994, in fact it was literally a few days after he topped himself they were scheduled to play.....didnt get my money back

At that stage though, the concert had already been rescheduled for mid-May.

red_ice

Acid_Violet wrote:

YOU sir, (unless being cleverly sarcastic) are an idiot! She revived him several times when he OD'd? Why would she have killed him when she threatened to prove that 'she would follow him to hell and back' and thus held a gun to her head? He had a kid, there was something seriously wrong with him if he wasn't able to think clear enough to see that he was

Were you there? I dont fking think so. I take it you know all the details then... about kurts plan to work with lanegan and the screaming trees and how kurt was according to a number of people 100% depression free. that bitch is an attention seeker, and around that time it was known she wasnt happy with kurt. Theres loads of evidence that says he didnt kill himself - jesus, read a fkin book. Ignorance is bliss, but if you wanna make a point back it with valid facts, ill be on the edge of my seat when the sh1t hits the fan on your arguement, dont worry i wont point and laugh... then again, you could be the type of chap who will just say 'no it didnt happen' out of pride. Its possible he did kill himself, but facts are facts.

Acid_Violet wrote:

If Kurt was still alive, there'd be a few less kids hanging around central bank and a few less suicides and self-imposed depression. Contentious as that is, I stand by it. Nirvana are totally over-rated because although they were good people want to feel like there was so much more to them but they were robbed of it by his death.

Your talking sh1te. Let it go. Self imposed depression isnt as straight forward as 'i listen to nirvana, so im gonna be depressed'. self imposed depression would be more related to someone who looks for a reason to get sad, not because of a record. Get a clue, your the exact chap that says stuff like 'eminem said gay in a song, so his records shouldnt be played'. I hate eminem - off topic. Nirvana were the first band that i ever listened to when i was a kid. I thought the songs were catchy and all that lark... i took a few years off only listening to a couple of their songs every now and then, then about a year ago we stuck on the album and gave it a listen through. Those songs are very deep, and the average teenager wouldnt have a clue whats being sung about. Musically, they are amazing, and lyrically kurt told a great story in a vivid but charming manor. His voice imo, is one of the most classic voices there is in music.

this post is rushed coz its late, ill continue on tomorrow.

John

red_ice wrote:

ill continue on tomorrow.

Is that a promise or a threat? lol

honru

JC 2K3 wrote:

Never a big headlining show when they were famous though.

They definetly played The Point the following year or 1993.

If Kurt Cobain lived, I'd say they Nirvana would have splitted up before the end of the noughties, while Grohl would continue to work on Foo Fighters. Cobain would return with a solo jobbie. Or make one of those supergroups that have been the trend recently.

That's enough hypothesis for tonight.

Nightwish

If Kurt Cobain had lived, I dont think we'd have kids who were born after 1994 wearing Nirvana hoodies.

Doctor J

Acid_Violet wrote:

YOU sir, (unless being cleverly sarcastic) are an idiot!

And YOU will be banned if you resort to personal abuse again. If you can't make your point without being civil, you won't be around here for long.

Motley Crue

i think Hair Metal might have continued a little longer, or at least the artists it contained, if it was for the fact that Cobain killed himself (or was murdered). For one thing, Nine Inch Nails and Hole etc rose to promience after his death and despite the fact that bands like The Bulletboys and Firehouse were released well taught out records and expanding on their songwriting abilites major labels were loosing intrest

Doctor J

It wasn't just labels that were losing interest, it was the record buying public too. A lot of those bands mysteriously ditched the huge, clean productions too, the saccharine power ballads and started wearing flannel shirts and non-designer ripped jeans . This was happening long before Cobain died.

360*

Doctor J wrote:

It wasn't just labels that were losing interest, it was the record buying public too. A lot of those bands mysteriously ditched the huge, clean productions too, the saccharine power ballads and started wearing flannel shirts and non-designer ripped jeans . This was happening long before Cobain died.

As much as you like Hair Metal Motley, I have to agree with Doctor J, I remember my brother was listening to Warrant (back in 96/97 when theyd gotten rid of Joey Allen and Steven Sweet for the first time) and thinking Jani must have been on something to dress that ridiculous, in flannel, and sing a song called 'A.Y.M.' which just sounded like him ripping off Alice in Chains. My brother wasnt too impressed, and dont think you would be either, but I got to say if you really want to know why Hair Metal topped itself all you have to do is check the link below. Im sorry if this is off topic I just taught id share this with the 'class'

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nySlMPEm2Y

Motley Crue

360* wrote:

and thinking Jani must have been on something to dress that ridiculous, in flannel, and sing a song called 'A.Y.M.' which just sounded like him ripping off Alice in Chains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nySlMPEm2Y

i hear what your saying both saying I actually do have that album. Note to Doctor J, not only do I know who Tigertailz are, I have their albums!lol! And note to 360* the guy from that clip playing Guitar actually married Lita Ford

On the subject of Kurt, I think that this forum has opened up a great discussion, I originally posted here because I read his wikipedia profile and it had all the discussion about him being murdered and I wondered would he have made that good of a politican for musical youth in general if he hadnt comitted suicide. The fact is he had enough heroin in his body to kill a horse when he died, and yet asides from drugs the media brought 'depression' into the fold. Janis Joplin and Jim Morrison both od'd and at the time they were musical spokespersons as far as the youth were concerned. The fact that Kurts death is so, and will remain so, puzzling is prob the thing that draws us closer to it.

My friend also said that apparently Kurt's nanny and a b/f or g/f where in the house the day before he died, and heard footsteps, called out his name and got no response and were so creeped out they left the house...he was found dead the next day. Is there any truth to this? And Layne Staley is supposed to have died of a heroin overdose in Argentina 8 years to the day after Cobain

El_mariachi

its a lie kurt cobain never killed himself

i killed him!

LightofDarkness

Thanks El!!
Or maybe your actions helped him achieve his cult status among kids looking for a reason to rebel.
But in fairness, Nirvana came along at the END of the grunge scene. They were nothing new at the time, just something new to the mainstream. Right place, right time situation. Nothing more.

Motley Crue

I wonder what Kurt would have taught of this
http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=58931

Doctor J

Motley Crue wrote:

Note to Doctor J, not only do I know who Tigertailz are, I have their albums!lol!

I figured you'd know , that was addressed to what I'd guess is the majority of folks who'd respond with

Motley Crue

Doctor J wrote:

I figured you'd know ,

ha ha ha

Dathai

If he hadnt of killed himself, he would have continued on making music, and slowly but surely lost all the talent, faded into a kind of "pulp" like style, and created a style like a bastard child of emo and grunge.

Its not really a valid question though, as we cant predict things, and we werent inside his head..well...unless you're the bullet..*bad dum bum tish!*

They never had any significance to me anyways, so, meh!

Acid_Violet

red_ice wrote:

Kurts plan to work with lanegan and the screaming trees and how kurt was according to a number of people 100% depression free. that bitch is an attention seeker, and around that time it was known she wasnt happy with kurt.

The man had tried to kill himself before, is that not enough evidence? As for your other facts, even he may have planned to work with the Screaming Tree's, but a lot of the time before people kill themselves they do appear depressionless and seem to have plans for the future. Unless love would have killed him to stop him working with Lanegan, your point has no validity. And she is an attention seeker alright. Does that make her a killer? If she tried to get or pay some-one to kill him that person would've made a lot more money taking that story to the tabloids. And why would she have been happy with Kurt, if he was over-dosing the whole time with her having gotten used to revive him and if he even quit rehab. The fact that he quit rehab made it seem obvious to me that he had really nowhere to go in his life. In her eulogy, it appeared that she was quite angry with him and she defamed his character reasonably severely. If she had killed him, she wouldn't have pointed the finger at herself by doing that. You can argue that she would've been dumb enough to do that, but can you honestly say that you really think that?

red_ice wrote:

Self imposed depression isnt as straight forward as 'i listen to nirvana, so im gonna be depressed'. self imposed depression would be more related to someone who looks for a reason to get sad, not because of a record. Get a clue, your the exact chap that says stuff like 'eminem said gay in a song, so his records shouldnt be played'.

I didn't say that it's as straight-forward as that and I hope it wasn't implied that I meant that, but I know people who have said 'lets kill ourselves when we're 27, because that's when Kurt Cobain died.' I'm not joking. Nirvana isn't responsible for self-imposed depression, but it's true that people are impressionable and that when their heroes are depressed and they say stuff like 'it's better to burn out then fade away', they will adopt that same attitude and mind-set and then they will look for reasons to get sad in trivial things around them. That's my experience, and I know this because I was quite a bit like that when I was thirteen and I know masses of others like that too. I'm not saying that it applies to everyone, so don't accuse me of saying that, but I do know a lot of people like that, and I'm not exaggerating.

red_ice wrote:

Those songs are very deep, and the average teenager wouldnt have a clue whats being sung about. Musically, they are amazing, and lyrically kurt told a great story in a vivid but charming manor. His voice imo, is one of the most classic voices there is

This is opinion, so I'm not going to dispute it, just voice my own. I agree that Kurt was a well above average lyricist in some songs, like Heart Shaped Box, but in a lot of songs, there really is nothing in the lyrics. The music was really just catchy, but nothing special. Good to listen to, stays in your head but very little of it is truly amazing or epic. It has to be commended for it's eloquent simplicity, but it can't be compared to the great's like Led Zep. I do like they're music a lot, but I do still think that they're over-rated.

Red-ice, I thought at first that you had no real reason other than common fanaticism to think that Courtney Love killed Kurt, but although I completely disagree with your points I respect them and your argument as being of substance. But if anything, it isn't possible that he killed himself, if anything it's unlikely but still possible that she killed him.

El_mariachi

do it mater really? he is dead. he did kill himself . and we will never no!

Motley Crue

My reasons for believing he couldnt have killed himself are simple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Cobain#Suicide_dispute

Mushy

Dathai wrote:

but surely lost all the talent,

Ya cant lose talent. ya can kinda but it in the context of the saying form is temporary, class is permanent. Class referring to talent. Just a modern example here: Tiger Woods at the moment, playing terrible golf, but he still has the same talent as he ever had. Its the same with anything. Sorry, its probably a bit too off-topic