IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bomblets in Lebanon

philologos

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761781.html

An Israeli commander claims to have fired over 1 million cluster bombs over Lebanon during the crisis against Hizbullah. The article is from an Israeli source.

feel free to discuss

Manic Moran

[Edit]

Misleading subject title. I did some maths on cluster bombs, not bomblets. I've no particular quarrel with the statement otherwise, though I do note how the article goes from 'Phosphorous is banned' to 'Phosphorous is controversial' in a couple of paragraphs.

NTM

philologos

they covered complete towns in them? (subject title was the same as article title you'll find) does that not sound outrageous??

gandalf

Yep the article is misleading the actual quote is

Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

But I do agree with the sentiment it was monsterous and will be a deadly harvest that the Lebanese will reap over the next few years.

bonkey

Jakkass wrote:

they covered complete towns in them? (subject title was the same as article title you'll find) does that not sound outrageous??

Does what sound outrageous? The question that they may have covered towns? The suggestion that it may be true? The reality which we don't know behind the question/allegation?

TBH, it sounds no less outrageous than much of what else we've heard about the conflict, from either side.

Don't want to be pedantic but shouldn't the topic title be changed to either read 1,800 cluster bombs or over 1 m bomblets?

gandalf

Well actually Conor because the thread title is the title of the article in referenced in the Haaretz newspaper I will leave it.

Manic Moran

I guess they could have used a greater amount of unitary warheads instead, and killed/maimed everybody sooner.

Not sure quite how that helps anyone though.

NTM

philologos

They fired 90% of those in the final hours of the conflict, many haven't exploded yet... 90% of those 1,800 bombs is quite a lot to fire down in a few hours..

Edit: I changed the title

Hogmeister B

That's a nasty little war crime they have going there.

Mick86

Jakkass wrote:

An Israeli commander claims to have fired over 1 million cluster bombs over Lebanon during the crisis against Hizbullah. The article is from an Israeli source.

Really? Should anyone care?

Jakkass wrote:

they covered complete towns in them???

Have you a photo of a town (try Reuters) completely covered in cluster bombs?

Jakkass wrote:

(subject title was the same as article title you'll find) does that not sound outrageous??

Only to the terminally melodramatic.

Hogmeister B wrote:

That's a nasty little war crime they have going there.

Sorry to disappoint you but dropping cluster bombs isn't a war crime. Not even for the Israelis. Neither is dropping "butterfly mines".

Manic Moran

By thewaythey aren't fired, they are dropped.

Well, the proper term should be cluster munitions. You can shoot them out of rocket launchers and artillery pieces as well as dropping them. Don't think I've ever heard of a cluster munition for a mortar though, but that would qualify as a bomb which is fired. (Albeit you do drop it into the tube in the first place)

NTM

philologos

Mick86 wrote:

Really? Should anyone care?

Now I wonder whats the point posting any form of current affairs in here at all
Also hundreds of Lebanese died, ideally you should care but thats your choice...

uberpixie

Mick86 wrote:

Really? Should anyone care?

Sorry to disappoint you but dropping cluster bombs isn't a war crime. Not even for the Israelis. Neither is dropping "butterfly mines".

It is a war crime when you drop them on a predominantly civillian area indiscriminantly.

Which is what they have done.

Sand

Have you a photo of a town (try Reuters) completely covered in cluster bombs?

Given the photoshop skills of Reuters photographers those photos mightnt be all that hard to produce

It is a war crime when you drop them on a predominantly civillian area indiscriminantly.

Which is what they have done.

Is it? I would have thought it would be when you drop them on civillians. Have they?

Akrasia

Sand wrote:

Is it? I would have thought it would be when you drop them on civillians. Have they?

Any indiscriminate attacks against civilians are a war crime, and you can't get much more indiscriminate than cluster bombs which are designed to blanket wide areas with explosives, many of which remain active for years after they are deployed.

I think it's extremely revealing how quick some people on here are to defend the indefensible actions of the IDF. (while crying like wounded babies that there isn't enouigh condenmation of Hezbollah from others)

tallus

Sand wrote:

Given the photoshop skills of Reuters photographers those photos mightnt be all that hard to produce



Is it? I would have thought it would be when you drop them on civillians. Have they?

From the article in the link:
IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bombs in Lebanon
By Meron Rappaport

"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

Surely covering entire towns in cluster bombs is the same as dropping them on civillians. Not that the IDF actually distinguish between civilian and combatants.

FYI

bomblet:

"One of a number of small bombs usually contained in a cluster bomb and released in midair."

There is absolutely no point arguing over the title of the post or the article.

While these 'small' bombs may be fired together, they often 'work' independently as land mines on contact with the ground. They are dispersed over a wide area, and therefore replicate the firing/dropping of many bombs.

Bomblets is much more user friendly though. If you want to diminish the crime.

Mick86

Jakkass wrote:

Also hundreds of Lebanese died, ideally you should care but thats your choice...

I'm not an idealist. And I chose not to care.

uberpixie wrote:

It is a war crime when you drop them on a predominantly civillian area indiscriminantly.

Which is what they have done.

I take it you mean that they dropped these bombs indiscriminately. Do you have any proof that they were dropped indiscriminately on civilian areas where no military targets were present?

Akrasia wrote:

Any indiscriminate attacks against civilians are a war crime, and you can't get much more indiscriminate than cluster bombs which are designed to blanket wide areas with explosives, many of which remain active for years after they are deployed.

Again that depends on whether there were military targets in the area.

Akrasia wrote:

I think it's extremely revealing how quick some people on here are to defend the indefensible actions of the IDF. (while crying like wounded babies that there isn't enouigh condenmation of Hezbollah from others)

I find it equally revealing that some people heap all the blame on Israel while refusing to criticise the Lebanese terrorists and their supporters.

FYI wrote:

While these 'small' bombs may be fired together, they often 'work' independently as land mines on contact with the ground. They are dispersed over a wide area, and therefore replicate the firing/dropping of many bombs.

They aren't land mines. They are all supposed to detonate on contact but they frequently don't. The unexploded ones are very unstable and shouldn't be touched but the Lebanese have an unnerving habit of picking unexploded munitions up and dropping them off at the nearest UN post.

FYI wrote:

Bomblets is much more user friendly though. If you want to diminish the crime.

What crime?

Hogmeister B

Mick86 wrote:

They aren't land mines. They are all supposed to detonate on contact but they frequently don't. The unexploded ones are very unstable and shouldn't be touched but the Lebanese have an unnerving habit of picking unexploded munitions up and dropping them off at the nearest UN post.

The bomblets also have an unnerving habit of killing or maiming children. That's the one that worries me. As it should all other human beings.

Sesshoumaru

Hogmeister B wrote:

The bomblets also have an unnerving habit of killing or maiming children. That's the one that worries me. As it should all other human beings.

Hezbollah terrorists have an unnerving habit of using rifle butts to crack open the skulls of young jewish children. That worries me more. Hezbollah operates out of these towns in the south of Lebanon with the full support of the "civilian" population. I don't see it as any different from attacking an armys supply lines or logistical support units.

tallus

What does a child know about supply lines? and secondly as far as I know hezbollah weren't formed until 1982 ?

Lemming

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Hezbollah terrorists have an unnerving habit of using rifle butts to crack open the skulls of young jewish children.

"Children" you say? I read singular (both victim and perpetrator), not plural. What one person does does not an organisation make.

You could just as easily say that Israeli soldiers shoot children for 'the craic like' by finding any number of articles on google (God knows there's enough out there unfortunately)

That worries me more.

Why? The end result is the same? Would you support someone who killed another human being by shooting them instead? How about gasing them? Suffocating them in their sleep? Starving them? droppingclustermunitionsonthem?

It's all the same at the end of the day and I find it disturbing that anyone would try to make some sort of moral distinction between death by munition and death by ... well pretty much anything else.

I also find it curious that you are playing the "OMG WONT SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN" routine. How abou tthe other three people that died in that article you mentioned. Don't they deserve equal mention?

Hezbollah operates out of these towns in the south of Lebanon with the full support of the "civilian" population.

That's quite a sweeping statement to make. So the population deserves to be bombed out of it? How is that any different to Hezbollah shooting at Israeli citizens since they "fully" support the Israeli military? It isn't.

I don't see it as any different from attacking an armys supply lines or logistical support units.

What's sauce for the goose ....

Sesshoumaru

tallus wrote:

What does a child know about supply lines? and secondly as far as I know hezbollah weren't formed until 1982 ?

Does it matter? Hezbollah captures IDF soldiers so they can have monsters like Samir Kuntar released. Just look at his picture! Pure evil! and yet he is celebrated hero back in Lebanon.

No I don't want any children to die and I'm sure the vast majority of Israeli's would feel the same as well. Thats not however how a lot terrorists and their "civilian" supporters feel about Jewish children. Apparently they are legitimate targets.

Sesshoumaru

Why? The end result is the same? Would you support someone who killed another human being by shooting them instead? How about gasing them? Suffocating them in their sleep? Starving them? droppingclustermunitionsonthem?

It's all the same at the end of the day and I find it disturbing that anyone would try to make some sort of moral distinction between death by munition and death by ... well pretty much anything else.

I also find it curious that you are playing the "OMG WONT SOMEONE PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN" routine. How abou tthe other three people that died in that article you mentioned. Don't they deserve equal mention?

You are right, dead is dead. But it's not the method of execution I found more worrying, it was who died because of it that caused me more worry.
I'm not playing that routine. In fact I'm sick of seeing people going on and on about "the children". But in particular I'm sick of hearing about Lebanese children dying. We've seen enough of them paraded before cameras for the MSM enough now to last a life time. I was just merely pointing out that Jewish children die as well at the hands of Muslim terrorists like Samir Kuntar for instance. Since no one seemed to be thinking of the children :rolleyes: The Jewish children that is.

That's quite a sweeping statement to make. So the population deserves to be bombed out of it? How is that any different to Hezbollah shooting at Israeli citizens since they "fully" support the Israeli military? It isn't.

I don't recognise anyone left in those towns as civilians. The IDF normally drops plenty of leaflets warning civilians to leave before they start a major operation. So anyone left is either Hezbollah terrorists or militia.

A Dub in Glasgo

Sesshoumaru wrote:

But in particular I'm sick of hearing about Lebanese children dying.

You think we should not hear about the hundreds of children killed by Israel during their little jaunt into Lebanon?

I don't recognise anyone left in those towns as civilians. The IDF normally drops plenty of leaflets warning civilians to leave before they start a major operation. So anyone left is either Hezbollah terrorists or militia.

Very convienent for you is it not?

Sesshoumaru

You think we should not hear about the hundreds of children killed by Israel during their little jaunt into Lebanon?

I didn't say that. I just said I was sick of seeing the dead bodies of children paraded in front of cameras as some kind of victory by the terrorists who used these children as human shields in the first place.

Very convienent for you is it not?

Unfortunately we haven't developed weapon systems that can read peoples minds and hearts yet. Until then there is still a war to be fought against muslim terrorists and they don't seem to want to follow our gentlemans rulebook for fighting wars. What can you do? Never fire a missile until your 100% sure a real civilian won't die?

Frederico

Sesshoumaru wrote:

You are right, dead is dead. But it's not the method of execution I found more worrying, it was who died because of it that caused me more worry.
I'm not playing that routine. In fact I'm sick of seeing people going on and on about "the children". But in particular I'm sick of hearing about Lebanese children dying. We've seen enough of them paraded before cameras for the MSM enough now to last a life time. I was just merely pointing out that Jewish children die as well at the hands of Muslim terrorists like Samir Kuntar for instance. Since no one seemed to be thinking of the children :rolleyes: The Jewish children that is.



I don't recognise anyone left in those towns as civilians. The IDF normally drops plenty of leaflets warning civilians to leave before they start a major operation. So anyone left is either Hezbollah terrorists or militia.

So how on earth did they manage to kill over 1000 civilians then?

Why did the Israelis keep firing on the UN post resulting in the deaths of 4 UN observers?

Its quite simple, this was no precision exercise, this was a deliberate attempt by the IDF to hurt and punish the Lebanese people. Obviously shrouded with the unrealistic goals of destroying Hizbollah and the retrieval of 2 soldiers by what can only be described as some very pumped up Israeli generals and polititians living in some fantasy world.

As usual the doctored images issue creeps in.. hmm a few doctored images vs the future deaths and maimings of many Lebanese civilians by unneccessarily used cluster munitions.

Sesshoumaru

So how on earth did they manage to kill over 1000 civilians then?

Muslim terrorists don't wear army uniforms do they? I accept many civilians died. But I don't believe its possible to tally how many died. The muslim terrorists used civilians as human shields and didn't wear any uniforms themselves. In these circumstances how can you accurately count how many real civilians died?

Why did the Israelis keep firing on the UN post resulting in the deaths of 4 UN observers?

Well lets see what one of the dead UN observers had to say a few days before he died shall we?

In an email dated 18 July received by CTV and published 24 July, the deceased Canadian peacekeeper Major Paeta Hess-von Kruedener, stated: “What I can tell you is this: we have on a daily basis had numerous occasions where our position has come under direct or indirect fire from both artillery and aerial bombing. The closest artillery has landed within 2 meters of our position and the closest 1000 lb aerial bomb has landed 100 meters from our patrol base. This has not been deliberate targeting, but has rather been due to tactical necessity.”[25]

According to retired Canadian Major General Lewis MacKenzie, interviewed on CBC radio on 26 July, Hess-von Kruedener's phrase ‘due to tactical necessity’ was “veiled speech in the military. What he was telling us was Hezbollah fighters were all over his position and the IDF were targeting them.”[15][26] [27]

Oh what a shock :rolleyes: Muslim terrorists using innocents as human shields? No it can't be! Islam is a religion of peace :rolleyes:

A Dub in Glasgo

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I didn't say that. I just said I was sick of seeing the dead bodies of children paraded in front of cameras as some kind of victory by the terrorists who used these children as human shields in the first place.

So you do not want to hear about children being killed by Israelis?

Unfortunately we haven't developed weapon systems that can read peoples minds and hearts yet. Until then there is still a war to be fought against muslim terrorists and they don't seem to want to follow our gentlemans rulebook for fighting wars. What can you do? Never fire a missile until your 100% sure a real civilian won't die?

As I said, very convienent for you then.

tallus

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Muslim terrorists don't wear army uniforms do they? I accept many civilians died. But I don't believe its possible to tally how many died. The muslim terrorists used civilians as human shields and didn't wear any uniforms themselves. In these circumstances how can you accurately count how many real civilians died?



Well lets see what one of the dead UN observers had to say a few days before he died shall we?



Oh what a shock :rolleyes: Muslim terrorists using innocents as human shields? No it can't be! Islam is a religion of peace :rolleyes:

So you think it's ok that Israel builds munition factories in Arab neighbourhoods, which is tantamount to the same thing. Israel is also a proponent of terror too but you conviniently ignore that fact.