IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bomblets in Lebanon

Sesshoumaru

So you think it's ok that Israel builds munition factories in Arab neighbourhoods, which is tantamount to the same thing. Israel is also a proponent of terror too but you conviniently ignore that fact.

Israel is a small country and those munition factories have to go somewhere. How can you honestly say you know with complete certainty they were located in Arab districts simply because they were Arab districts? and are you going to provide some source for that claim?

So you do not want to hear about children being killed by Israelis?

Why do I have to keep repeating myself? Yes I know children died! It could hardly have slipped my notice since they like to wheel them back out of ambulances just so the media can get a better propaganda shot. I've seen the dead children, I don't wish to or need to see anymore. Do you like to keep watching images and videos of dead children?

As I said, very convienent for you then.

Modern warfare is as much about propaganda as it is about killing your enemy. So no I don't find it very convenient. In fact its very inconvenient. But like I said, should we never fire that bullet/missile/rocket/artillery shell until we are 100% certain a real civilian won't die? Its real world versus fantasy world.

tallus

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Israel is a small country and those munition factories have to go somewhere. How can you honestly say you know with complete certainty they were located in Arab districts simply because they were Arab districts? and are you going to provide some source for that claim?

I'd have thought it was more than chance that they built those factories where they did, but you're welcome to your opinion, as am I. The only difference is, I dont believe that it is by chance.
*edit* in responce to your earlier question no I can't find proof of that but searching for links, I have read about it somewhere.

Victor

Sesshoumaru wrote:

But like I said, should we never fire that bullet/missile/rocket/artillery shell until we are 100% certain a real civilian won't die? Its real world versus fantasy world.

You have to weigh it up and say "Is this round more likely to kill a combattant or some kid playing in the field in three years time?". Not what is the logical conclusion if you fire 1m+ sub-munitions?

Realise that the Americans decided that (their own) cluster munitions were a military hazard in Iraq, not just a safety hazard.

Hogmeister B

Sesshoumaru wrote:

But like I said, should we never fire that bullet/missile/rocket/artillery shell until we are 100% certain a real civilian won't die?

Not necessarily, but 'we' should refrain from firing such bullets/missiles/rockets/artillery shells into civilian areas, such as apartment blocks in South Beirut and villages in southern Lebanon.

Hogmeister B

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I don't recognise anyone left in those towns as civilians. The IDF normally drops plenty of leaflets warning civilians to leave before they start a major operation. So anyone left is either Hezbollah terrorists or militia.

Or sick. Or doesn't have a car.

It is a moral repugnance to suggest that one can simply drop leaflets, and then treat everyone as fair game. That would be a war crime of considerable proportions.

Hogmeister B

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Since no one seemed to be thinking of the children :rolleyes: The Jewish children that is.

It should be pointed out that the number of Jewish children being killed by Arabs does not even begin to approach the number of Muslim children being killed by the Israelis. At least one quarter of those killed by the Israeli army are children.

Frederico

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Muslim terrorists don't wear army uniforms do they? I accept many civilians died. But I don't believe its possible to tally how many died. The muslim terrorists used civilians as human shields and didn't wear any uniforms themselves. In these circumstances how can you accurately count how many real civilians died?

I don't think Lebanese people are very stupid, I also don't think they want to die. I think its logical to say that if a bunch of Hezbollah fighters.. sorry "muslim terrorists".. turned up in any town, occupied any house, that the Lebanese locals would stick around very long what with the IDF bombing the hell out of the place. People run away from bombs and bullets. They don't hang around with Hezbollah fighters. They probably get as far away from them as possible. Face it, Israel had little or no concern for human life in Lebanon, the only concern they seemed to show was a realisation that the outside world was watching them, not that that overly bothers them anyway.

If you agree with the Israeli tactics why don't you think the Americans are using these same tactics in Iraq? ..

Leaflet drop, wait a day, flatten the town, try to destroy every house, drop cluster bombs, then move onto the next town. Do you think that would weaken or strengthen the insurgency?

Personally, my own opinion is that its a terrible tactic and if you want to beat terrorists, "muslim terrorists", insurgents, militants,etc you have to do it some other way, rather than flattening the place and giving a "well we told you so" to any dead civilians.

Sesshoumaru

If you are so horrified at the death toll amongst Lebanese children why not write some letters to Hezbollah and ask them to wear uniforms? and maybe not fire missiles from Lebanese civilian areas into Israeli civilian areas while you are at it? I mean they are obviously a well funded organisation. Surely they could fit some uniforms into this years budget?

It should be pointed out that the number of Jewish children being killed by Arabs does not even begin to approach the number of Muslim children being killed by the Israelis. At least one quarter of those killed by the Israeli army are children.

Whats your point? If the muslim terrorists had the military advantage you can be sure they would be killing a lot more Israeli citizens than they have now. Look at the rockets they fired into northern Israel. Were those precision guided munitions? Were Hezbollahs rockets targeting military installations in Israel? Maybe you are suggesting Israel should only kill the same number of Muslims as Jews that get blown up by suicide bombers? Is that the "proportional response" that so many people kept banging on about? Would that satisfy everyone here?

Victor

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Look at the rockets they fired into northern Israel. Were those precision guided munitions? Were Hezbollahs rockets targeting military installations in Israel? Maybe you are suggesting Israel should only kill the same number of Muslims as Jews that get blown up by suicide bombers? Is that the "proportional response" that so many people kept banging on about? Would that satisfy everyone here?

Two thirds of Israelis killed were soliders. A minimum of two thirds of Lebanese killed were civilians.

Sesshoumaru

Frederico wrote:

I don't think Lebanese people are very stupid, I also don't think they want to die. I think its logical to say that if a bunch of Hezbollah fighters.. sorry "muslim terrorists".. turned up in any town, occupied any house, that the Lebanese locals would stick around very long what with the IDF bombing the hell out of the place. People run away from bombs and bullets. They don't hang around with Hezbollah fighters. They probably get as far away from them as possible. Face it, Israel had little or no concern for human life in Lebanon, the only concern they seemed to show was a realisation that the outside world was watching them, not that that overly bothers them anyway.

If you agree with the Israeli tactics why don't you think the Americans are using these same tactics in Iraq? ..

Leaflet drop, wait a day, flatten the town, try to destroy every house, drop cluster bombs, then move onto the next town. Do you think that would weaken or strengthen the insurgency?

Personally, my own opinion is that its a terrible tactic and if you want to beat terrorists, "muslim terrorists", insurgents, militants,etc you have to do it some other way, rather than flattening the place and giving a "well we told you so" to any dead civilians.

Well I don't agree with what you say. But for arguements sake can you tell me how you think Israel should have dealt with Hezbollah? A non state entity directly on their border with massive support and backing from Syria and Iran. Oh and of course the obligatory useless UN "peacekeeping" force.
Weapons/rockets stockpiled - check
Bunkers in place - check
Indoctrinated fanatical followers - check
Desire & will to destroy Israel - check
I really want to know how Israel should have removed the Hezbollah threat?

Sesshoumaru

Victor wrote:

Two thirds of Israelis killed were soliders. A minimum of two thirds of Lebanese killed were civilians.

Well better write to the UN and demand to know why Hezbollah fighters weren't wearing uniforms and obeying international rules on the conduct of war. The highly efficent and effective UN will get right on it. I'm sure :rolleyes: Oh and before I forget, the IDF do wear UNIFORMS. Makes it easier for the terrorists to distinguish between soldier and civilian. Oh and I don't recall them stationing artillery or rocket launchers inside their citys. Maybe thats why more of their soldiers die?

Victor

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Oh and I don't recall them stationing artillery or rocket launchers inside their citys.

But apparently they do put military factories, naval bases and the like in cities.

Oh, would you consider these people to be wearing uniforms? (I exclude the fireman) http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/CIA_SAD

Sesshoumaru

Victor wrote:

But apparently they do put military factories, naval bases and the like in cities.

Oh, would you consider these people to be wearing uniforms? (I exclude the fireman) http://media.militaryphotos.net/photos/CIA_SAD

Sources? My point is they don't drive a division of artillery into suburb or a rocket launcher platform and start firing from there.

The photos.... care to give me some background info? Who is Johnny Michael Spann? These guys aren't even Israeli soldiers? In fact whats the point in these photos? They're Americans working for the CIA.

Victor

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Sources? My point is they don't drive a division of artillery into suburb or a rocket launcher platform and start firing from there.

Hezbollah don't have a division of soldiers, never mind a division of artillery.

I can't give you sources because of Israeli military censors. But look between the old city and the oil tanks in Haifa. Its the bit with the low grade photos on googlemaps.com http://local.google.com/?ie=UTF8&z=14&ll=32.822624,35.009651&spn=0.03354,0.05785&t=k&om=1

The IAF foes however give some details. http://iaf.org.il/Templates/Present/Bases.aspx?lang=EN&lobbyID=33&folderID=37

The photos.... care to give me some background info? Who is Johnny Michael Spann? These guys aren't even Israeli soldiers? In fact whats the point in these photos? They're Americans working for the CIA.

But they have guns, don't have uniforms, then by your reckoning they must be terrorists.

But lets look at those figures again 73% of Israeli deaths were combattants, but only 11-37% of Lebanese deaths were combattants. Now that either points to Israeli disregard to civilian deaths or gross overkill.

Sesshoumaru

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah#Armed_strength

The International Institute for Strategic Studies estimates Hezbollah forces to 600-1000 active fighters (with 3,000 - 5,000 available and 10,000 reservists), 10,000 - 15,000 rockets of the Katyusha, Fajr-3 and Fajr-5 type. They also estimate a stockpile of 30 missiles of the Zelzal type.[95] As Haaretz reports Hezbollah is not a small guerrilla organization. It is a trained, skilled, well-organized, highly motivated infantry that is equipped with the cream of the crop of modern weaponry from the arsenals of Syria, Iran, Russia and China, and which is very familiar with the territory on which it is fighting.[96]

A division is usually around 10,000 soldiers. Looks like they have a enough for a division. They must have ordered their uniforms from some cheap supplier in China. Got lost in the post or something like that

I don't really care if they have a Naval base, a munitions factory or an airbase near or in their citys. I seriously doubt any of those are located in residential areas and as I said earlier they don't hide behind civilians or in civilian clothing. Thats the important distinction as far as I am concerned.

Frederico

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Well I don't agree with what you say. But for arguements sake can you tell me how you think Israel should have dealt with Hezbollah? A non state entity directly on their border with massive support and backing from Syria and Iran. Oh and of course the obligatory useless UN "peacekeeping" force.
Weapons/rockets stockpiled - check
Bunkers in place - check
Indoctrinated fanatical followers - check
Desire & will to destroy Israel - check
I really want to know how Israel should have removed the Hezbollah threat?

For arguments sake how should Israel have destroyed Hezbollah and got their soldiers back?

Israel have purposefully attacked and punished the people of Lebanon. I wish I could say those are the good guys so very good (IDF) and those are the bad bad guys (Hezbollah), but I can't, its not black and white like that. I can't tell the difference between the IDF and Hezbollah anymore, but I think I'd much rather have Hezbollah on my borders than the IDF anyday.

Sesshoumaru

Frederico wrote:

For arguments sake how should Israel have destroyed Hezbollah and got their soldiers back?

Israel have purposefully attacked and punished the people of Lebanon. I wish I could say those are the good guys so very good (IDF) and those are the bad bad guys (Hezbollah), but I can't, its not black and white like that. I can't tell the difference between the IDF and Hezbollah anymore, but I think I'd much rather have Hezbollah on my borders than the IDF anyday.

Honestly I can't understand you at all. I think the only thing we can agree on is that we disagree

Akrasia

Sesshoumaru wrote:

A huge pile of inconsistant bigoted irresponsible nonsense

I'll put this in bullet points to make it easy for you to understand

1. You say people who criticise Israel don't also criticise Hezbollah.

Complete nonsense. It is accepted by almost everyone that Hezbollah are a terrorist organisation who have done some awful things in the past, and they have targeted Civilians in the past and in the most recent war.

2. You refuse to condenm anything Israel have done. You appear to think that Israel have done absolutely nothing wrong, ever. Even when they do the same things you criticise Hezbollah for doing.

3. You claim that all the civilians killed by Israel are fair game because they 'probably' support hezbollah and so they're not innocent Bystanders. If that is an acceptable position to take, then it is impossible for any attacks against israel to be terrorist attacks because most Israeli citizens supported the attacks on lebanon and against Palestine. And your position is even weaker when we take into account that every Israeli citizen of a certain age is a part of the IDF reserve forces and, by your logic, could be described as military targets.

4. You describe the Lebanese prisoner as a monster because he killed a child while he was carrying out a political assasination, but Israel routinely kill whole families when they launch rocket attacks into Gaza and the west bank to try to kill suspected Hamas leaders. Why is striking a child with a rifle butt a monsterous act, but blowing women and children to small peices is an acceptable part of warfare?

5. Israel have weapons installations based in civilian cities (usually in areas populated by Arab non citizens) but when Hezbollah attacks a city it's a terrorist act, meanwhile you proclaim that it is ok for Israel to target civilian cities because Hezbollah might be storing weapons there or launching attacks from within urban neighbourhoods (in reality, Hezbollah rocket attacks can only be carried out from open areas, it is impossible to fire them close to tall buildings)

6. You claim that because Hezbollah don't wear uniforms (even though they do wear distinctive clothing that makes them recognisable to other lebanese people and to journalists on the ground), that this makes all civilians a potential target, but Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, don't wear uniforms either, and they regularly carry out military attacks within Lebanon and Palestine. Shouldn't this make every jewish person in these countries a legitimate target also? Should Mossad wear uniforms? If they did they would have a life expectancy of about 20 minutes

I could go on, but i doubt it'll make any difference to your warped sense of reality

F.i.n.t.a.N.

Akrasia wrote:

5. Israel have weapons installations based in civilian cities (usually in areas populated by Arab non citizens) but when Hezbollah attacks a city it's a terrorist act, meanwhile you proclaim that it is ok for Israel to target civilian cities because Hezbollah might be storing weapons there or launching attacks from within urban neighbourhoods (in reality, Hezbollah rocket attacks can only be carried out from open areas, it is impossible to fire them close to tall buildings)

I 100% agree with your post, but i have seen hezbollah rockets being launched from in between blocks of flats.

philologos

Mick86 wrote:

I'm not an idealist. And I chose not to care.

if there were cluster bombs dropped all over Tipperary you would...

Hogmeister B

F.i.n.t.a.N. wrote:

I 100% agree with your post, but i have seen hezbollah rockets being launched from in between blocks of flats.

Really... I consider that unlikely. But even if that was true it would not justify the destruction of the blocks of flats.

Lemming

Frederico wrote:

Leaflet drop, wait a day, flatten the town, try to destroy every house, drop cluster bombs, then move onto the next town. Do you think that would weaken or strengthen the insurgency?

You've just described a "Scorched Earth" policy. I hadn't quiet realised that until you wrote that above paragraph.

Does anyone here else find the use of such a policy to be not alarming?

Hogmeister B

Lemming wrote:

You've just described a "Scorched Earth" policy. I hadn't quiet realised that until you wrote that above paragraph.

Does anyone here else find the use of such a policy to be not alarming?

Well the policy described in the quote would amount to a huge and systematic series of war crimes. The question would lie on whether the description accurately describes what Israel was doing. Which in my opinion it does, although i would point out that they used considerably more than just cluster bombs.

FYI

Mick.

I didn't say they were 'land mines'. They do act as landmines, when unexploded.

Have Israel targeted indiscriminately?

"Israeli forces have systematically failed to distinguish between combatants and civilians in their military campaign against Hezbollah in Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said in report released today. The pattern of attacks in more than 20 cases investigated by Human Rights Watch researchers in Lebanon indicates that the failures cannot be dismissed as mere accidents and cannot be blamed on wrongful Hezbollah practices. In some cases, these attacks constitute war crimes." [HRW]

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/02/lebano13902.htm

There is little doubt Israel has targeted Lebanese civilians. An Israeli official was quoted as saying, everyone in South Lebanon is considered a terrorist. Fleeing families were bombed and so on...

Hezbollah have rightly been criticised for their attacks. But few have bothered considering exposing Israeli tactics of positioning weapons factories etc near civilian populations, in effect using them as human shields, something they have accused (and there has been little evidence found to substantiate the claim) Hezbollah of.

The fact of the matter is, Israel had been planning this war for over a year. The capture of Israeli soldiers was simply used a justification for the war, despite the fact Israel kidnap civilians continually.

Israel are responsible for this war. This is the crime. And all other crimes within.

Sesshoumaru

Akrasia please don't quote me as saying stuff I didn't say.

1. You say people who criticise Israel don't also criticise Hezbollah.

Complete nonsense. It is accepted by almost everyone that Hezbollah are a terrorist organisation who have done some awful things in the past, and they have targeted Civilians in the past and in the most recent war.

You're the first person in this thread to be critical of Hezbollah anyway.

2. You refuse to condenm anything Israel have done. You appear to think that Israel have done absolutely nothing wrong, ever. Even when they do the same things you criticise Hezbollah for doing.

I will say that they made mistakes. Those mistakes lead to civilians dying. I would condemn their mistakes, but I haven't seen any evidence to suggest they deliberately target people they know to be civilians.

3. You claim that all the civilians killed by Israel are fair game because they 'probably' support hezbollah and so they're not innocent Bystanders. If that is an acceptable position to take, then it is impossible for any attacks against israel to be terrorist attacks because most Israeli citizens supported the attacks on lebanon and against Palestine. And your position is even weaker when we take into account that every Israeli citizen of a certain age is a part of the IDF reserve forces and, by your logic, could be described as military targets.

I don't claim all civilians killed are fair game. The point I've been trying to make is that Hezbollah despite being a well trained and well equipped infantry force don't wear uniforms and launch attacks from within civilian areas. The Israelis have to pull the trigger at some point. War isn't a computer game where only the bad guys die. Its messy, ugly and inevitably there is going to be collateral damage. Why should I get all worked up over that? Thats just the reality of war.

4. You describe the Lebanese prisoner as a monster because he killed a child while he was carrying out a political assasination, but Israel routinely kill whole families when they launch rocket attacks into Gaza and the west bank to try to kill suspected Hamas leaders. Why is striking a child with a rifle butt a monsterous act, but blowing women and children to small peices is an acceptable part of warfare?

Lets be clear here. I have been talking about the Lebanon war. At no point have I discussed my views on the occupation of Palestinian land. I do support targeted killing of terrorist leaders. I believe its a tactic that has helped reduce the number of suicide bombing in Israel and its weakened organisations such as Hamas. But I do condemn the use or large warheads dropped from jets on entire apartment blocks just to kill one man. Which has happened I know! and I certainly don't support those actions.

5. Israel have weapons installations based in civilian cities (usually in areas populated by Arab non citizens) but when Hezbollah attacks a city it's a terrorist act, meanwhile you proclaim that it is ok for Israel to target civilian cities because Hezbollah might be storing weapons there or launching attacks from within urban neighbourhoods (in reality, Hezbollah rocket attacks can only be carried out from open areas, it is impossible to fire them close to tall buildings)

Yes when Hezbollah attack a city its a terrorist attack. They have been condemned by Amnesty International for it. Could you please provide some sources for these claims? You are not the first person to go on about munition factories beside Arab neighbourhoods. But no one has given me any reliable sources to back this up?

6. You claim that because Hezbollah don't wear uniforms (even though they do wear distinctive clothing that makes them recognisable to other lebanese people and to journalists on the ground), that this makes all civilians a potential target, but Mossad, the Israeli intelligence agency, don't wear uniforms either, and they regularly carry out military attacks within Lebanon and Palestine. Shouldn't this make every jewish person in these countries a legitimate target also? Should Mossad wear uniforms? If they did they would have a life expectancy of about 20 minutes

The first part of that paragraph is really sad. "distinctive clothing" come on now, you can do better than that? and really Mosad? every country has special forces/intelligence operatives. But lets use the prevailing logic on this thread. How many Mosad operative would Israel have in Lebanon? I doubt its more than a 100. So how about we make some new rules of war here. Hezbollah are allowed have 100 soldiers in civilian clothing and Israel can only kill the same number of soldiers as Hezbollah kills(moral equivalence). There now, are you happy? :rolleyes:

Akrasia

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Akrasia please don't quote me as saying stuff I didn't say.



You're the first person in this thread to be critical of Hezbollah anyway.

this topic isn't about Hezbollah, it's about Israel's use of Clusterbombs.
If you want me to start a topic asking if anyone here supports hezbollah's attacks against Israeli civilians then I will. Or you can do it.

I will say that they made mistakes. Those mistakes lead to civilians dying. I would condemn their mistakes, but I haven't seen any evidence to suggest they deliberately target people they know to be civilians.

So you would condemn their mistakes, but not their behaviour which led to those 'mistakes'. That's no condemnation at all really is it.

I don't claim all civilians killed are fair game. The point I've been trying to make is that Hezbollah despite being a well trained and well equipped infantry force don't wear uniforms and launch attacks from within civilian areas. The Israelis have to pull the trigger at some point. War isn't a computer game where only the bad guys die. Its messy, ugly and inevitably there is going to be collateral damage. Why should I get all worked up over that? Thats just the reality of war.

this is what you said

I don't recognise anyone left in those towns as civilians. The IDF normally drops plenty of leaflets warning civilians to leave before they start a major operation. So anyone left is either Hezbollah terrorists or militia.

By your logic, everyone left in New Orleans during Katrina deserved to die because they were warned to leave a few hours before the hurricane struck.
Hezbollah also warned Israel that they would attack Israeli cities if the IDF continued it's campaign against lebanon. Does this mean everyone left in Haifa was a military target?

Lets be clear here. I have been talking about the Lebanon war. At no point have I discussed my views on the occupation of Palestinian land. I do support targeted killing of terrorist leaders. I believe its a tactic that has helped reduce the number of suicide bombing in Israel and its weakened organisations such as Hamas. But I do condemn the use or large warheads dropped from jets on entire apartment blocks just to kill one man. Which has happened I know! and I certainly don't support those actions.

Good. I'm glad you have some humanity. But you do accept that the IDF do this, regularly, and you only characterise one side as monsters based on the action of one individual before Hezbollah was even established. What that man did was horrific and I condemn it completely. I also condemn every murderous assasination attempt (and they're usually only attempts, the mark is rarely killed) carried out by Israeli forces in Palestine and Lebanon.
I don't believe these strikes do anything to bring a resolution to this situation. Every act of violence by either side brings nothing but more violence.

Yes when Hezbollah attack a city its a terrorist attack. They have been condemned by Amnesty International for it. Could you please provide some sources for these claims? You are not the first person to go on about munition factories beside Arab neighbourhoods. But no one has given me any reliable sources to back this up?

Several Israeli armaments factories and storage depots have been built close by Arab communities in the north of Israel, possibly in the hope that by locating them there Arab regimes will be deterred from attacking Israel’s enormous armory. In other words, the inhabitants of several of Israel’s Arab towns and villages have been turned into collective human shields -- protection for Israel’s war machine.

http://www.counterpunch.org/cook07192006.html

This is from Johnathan Cook, a journalist based in Nasareth.
It is illegal to report the locations of any Israeli military installations and any attempt by a journalist will lead to severe punishment, johnathan cook took a very big risk to report even the limited description that he gave.

The first part of that paragraph is really sad. "distinctive clothing" come on now, you can do better than that? and really Mosad? every country has special forces/intelligence operatives. But lets use the prevailing logic on this thread. How many Mosad operative would Israel have in Lebanon? I doubt its more than a 100. So how about we make some new rules of war here. Hezbollah are allowed have 100 soldiers in civilian clothing and Israel can only kill the same number of soldiers as Hezbollah kills(moral equivalence). There now, are you happy? :rolleyes:

Why does Mossad not have a uniform? because they would not be able to operate if they had. Mossad are not just an intelligence agency, they conduct assasinations. They killed the lebanese prime minister just over a year ago.
Lets make an alteration to your example. Instead of allowing 100 hezbollah fighters to operate in lebanon without a uniform, how about Israel allows 100 hezbollah to operate within Israel without a uniform, and allow them a presidential assasination every 10 years or so? It sounds insane because it is. Israel are far better at dishing out murder and destruction than they are at recieving it.

Hogmeister B

Akrasia wrote:

Hezbollah also warned Israel that they would attack Israeli cities if the IDF continued it's campaign against lebanon. Does this mean everyone left in Haifa was a military target?

Very good point.

Akrasia wrote:

http://www.counterpunch.org/cook07192006.html

This is from Johnathan Cook, a journalist based in Nasareth.
It is illegal to report the locations of any Israeli military installations and any attempt by a journalist will lead to severe punishment, johnathan cook took a very big risk to report even the limited description that he gave.

Indeed. Good point.

Akrasia wrote:

They [Mossad] killed the lebanese prime minister just over a year ago.

Nonsense. If that's Rafik Hariri you're talking about, then to my knowledge there is no evidence that mossad was involved in his death.

Akrasia wrote:

Israel are far better at dishing out murder and destruction than they are at recieving it.

True.

Hogmeister B

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Yes when Hezbollah attack a city its a terrorist attack.

When anyone attacks a city its a terrorist attack.

Sesshoumaru

I think the difference between us is that you believe that every Israeli strike that kills some civilians was a deliberate punishment on the civilian population. While I believe they were really just mistakes. Not deliberate actions masquerading as mistakes.

Oh and I don't accept Mossad executed Hariri. I'd rank that theory alongside the likes of the loony socialist's claiming the US government brought down the the twin towers.

Hogmeister B

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I think the difference between us is that you believe that every Israeli strike that kills some civilians was a deliberate punishment on the civilian population. While I believe they were really just mistakes. Not deliberate actions masquerading as mistakes.

Two points: First, even if they're not deliberate, they are reckless, most are done in the knowlege that civilian casualties would be extremely likely. You cannot rationally say that the attacks on apartment blocks in Beirut were 'mistakes', given the extraordinary accuracy of Israeli weaponry.

Second, statements of generals and politicians, and past experience, suggest that many attacks are designed to cause resentment of Hizbullah.

Also, attacks on roads, the airport, and power facilities were deliberate and are, most emphatically, war crimes.