IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bomblets in Lebanon

Manic Moran

Hogmeister B wrote:

Also, attacks on roads, the airport, and power facilities were deliberate and are, most emphatically, war crimes.

Although I think the repeated airport attacks were a bit excessive (Just knocking out the runways would have been quite sufficient), you're stretching it to call them all war crimes by default: They're common targets in all wars.

NTM

Akrasia

double post

Akrasia

Manic Moran wrote:

Although I think the repeated airport attacks were a bit excessive (Just knocking out the runways would have been quite sufficient), you're stretching it to call them all war crimes by default: They're common targets in all wars.

NTM

Yeah, just like when Al Qaeda attacked the Madrid rail network, and when the London underground was bombed, and when the Tokyo subway was attacked, and when palestinians attack Israeli Bus services. Transport infrastructure are common targets of terrorists.
You're 100% right.

Sesshoumaru

Well using your logic Akrasia we will never win this war against Islamic terrorists because we'll never be allowed fire a weapon at anything or anyone. At the same time the terrorists won't stop attacking us until we're all dead or converted to Islam. Just look at poor France. They oppose nearly all of America's plans, they make a great show of championing Arab causes and they certainly give Israel a much harder time than any other Western country. But still Al Qaeda designates France an enemy???

Akrasia

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Well using your logic Akrasia we will never win this war against Islamic terrorists because we'll never be allowed fire a weapon at anything or anyone. At the same time the terrorists won't stop attacking us until we're all dead or converted to Islam. Just look at poor France. They oppose nearly all of America's plans, they make a great show of championing Arab causes and they certainly give Israel a much harder time than any other Western country. But still Al Qaeda designates France an enemy???

Terrorists are not born, they are made.
Israels attacks on the Lebanese transport infrastructure (and lebanese civilians) did absolutely nothing to prevent Hezbollah from attacking Israel, they were firing more rockets per day at the end of the conflict than they were at the beginning.

Sesshoumaru

Akrasia wrote:

Terrorists are not born, they are made.
Israels attacks on the Lebanese transport infrastructure (and lebanese civilians) did absolutely nothing to prevent Hezbollah from attacking Israel, they were firing more rockets per day at the end of the conflict than they were at the beginning.

You know you're just encouraging the terrorists with that kind of mentality. Who "made" the 19 arab muslim terrorists who flew the planes into the twin towers? Are you one of those muslim apologists who blames the western world for everything? I suppose you would believe the west "made" those terrorists as well?

Akrasia

Sesshoumaru wrote:

You know you're just encouraging the terrorists with that kind of mentality. Who "made" the 19 arab muslim terrorists who flew the planes into the twin towers? Are you one of those muslim apologists who blames the western world for everything? I suppose you would believe the west "made" those terrorists as well?

The 9/11 attacks were a response to decades of American aggression against poor islamic countries.
The london bombings were a response to U.K. aggression in Iraq and Afghanistan
(previous london bombings were a response to British occupation of Northern Ireland and the repression of the Catholic population)
The Madrid attacks were a response to Spanish Participation in America's 'Coalition' against Islam.
Palestinian suicide attacks are a result of massive repression of the palestinian people by Israel,
And Hezbollah was set up to fight Israeli Occupation of the lebanon.

You don't accept any of this? Do you think that these terrorists are born terrorists? Or that they just hate our freedoms? or that they love the idea of blowing themselves up so they can get a load of virgins in the afterlife?

tallus

Sesshoumaru wrote:

You know you're just encouraging the terrorists with that kind of mentality. Who "made" the 19 arab muslim terrorists who flew the planes into the twin towers? Are you one of those muslim apologists who blames the western world for everything? I suppose you would believe the west "made" those terrorists as well?

I'd like to know what you think motivated the terrorists to fly planes in to the twin towers.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

this topic isn't about Hezbollah, it's about Israel's use of Clusterbombs.

The thread is about Israel dropping cluster bombs in response to the presence of Hezbollah in those area's.

If you want me to start a topic asking if anyone here supports hezbollah's attacks against Israeli civilians then I will. Or you can do it.

The odd thing is that if you look back over the threads posted on these boards, the vast majority will be of a criticism of Israeli actions. Doesn't that suggest something to you?

Hezbollah also warned Israel that they would attack Israeli cities if the IDF continued it's campaign against lebanon. Does this mean everyone left in Haifa was a military target?

Hezbollah launched their rockets against Israeli cities before Israel had made any invasion of Lebanon. Everyone in Israeli towns/cities were already a military target in the eyes of Hezbollah because they fired their rockets into the cities. There was no desire to target just military assets because of the nature of the weapons they used. Inaccurate rockets easily transported around, using ball bearings.

But you do accept that the IDF do this, regularly, and you only characterise one side as monsters based on the action of one individual before Hezbollah was even established. What that man did was horrific and I condemn it completely. I also condemn every murderous assasination attempt (and they're usually only attempts, the mark is rarely killed) carried out by Israeli forces in Palestine and Lebanon.
I don't believe these strikes do anything to bring a resolution to this situation. Every act of violence by either side brings nothing but more violence.

Agreed. They don't. But I think part of the problem that many people here that post up support for Israel have, is that you (and others) don't expect the same from the Palestinians or the Lebanese. For them they're resisting an invader, an occupation and therefore legitimate in their attacks on israel. The issue many of us have is that while posters acknowledge the actions of Hezbollah/palestinians (usually a sentence or two), they write paragraph after paragragh about how Israel has done wrong.

When a treaty fails or a war starts the focus is on Israel. When speaking about Gaza, Israel is in the wrong. When talking about the Sheba Farms, Israel is in the wrong. And this is part of the problem. Israel is always in the wrong, regardless of the actions of Palestinians or hezbollah/lebanese.

In another thread I took the stance that Hezbollah had started this latest of conflicts by kidnapping soldiers, and launching its rockets at Israel. However other posters believed that israel had somehow caused it. When i asked what Israel had done to cause it, I was given references to a kidnapping in Gaza. Which had no relationship to Hezbollah, the demands of Hezbollah, or Lebanon at all. The question is still unanswered, but the majority of people here still hold to the belief that Israel started this conflict with Hezbollah.

After all, Israel is always wrong.

It is illegal to report the locations of any Israeli military installations and any attempt by a journalist will lead to severe punishment, johnathan cook took a very big risk to report even the limited description that he gave.

Israel is a country at war. Frankly I'm suprised you believe any media should release any information that places a country in risk.

One interesting thing to note though. Israel placing its bases in civilian areas is no different, than most other countries. Athlone, Longford, etc. Many Irish towns have military bases in or near the middle of the towns.

The difference is where attacks are being launched from. Supposedly Hezbollah have been using Civilian areas intentionally to launch attacks on israeli forces. I say supposedly, because I can't find any real evidence to support it, except government sources. However at the same time I don't have any reports of Israel using civilian areas intentionally to launch attacks on Lebanon or Hezbollah. /shrugs.

Why does Mossad not have a uniform? because they would not be able to operate if they had. Mossad are not just an intelligence agency, they conduct assasinations. They killed the lebanese prime minister just over a year ago.

I daresay that members of Mossad know exactly the type of response they'd receive from hezbollah or Hamas if they were caught... But they're no different that the CIA or a dozen other intelligence communities except for the number of hostile countries/factions to combat.

Lets make an alteration to your example. Instead of allowing 100 hezbollah fighters to operate in lebanon without a uniform, how about Israel allows 100 hezbollah to operate within Israel without a uniform, and allow them a presidential assasination every 10 years or so? It sounds insane because it is.

Actually I think his example makes more sense.

Israel are far better at dishing out murder and destruction than they are at recieving it.

Strange. They've been on the receiving end for decades. They've structured their whole society to receive the damage from enemies, and seek to minimize it. Like the legal requirement of housing to have bomb shelters (Kinda useful in light of thousands of Hezbollah rockets being fired at them), or that certain streets have disposal sites for dropping bombs that have been found.

Israel is a country thats been at war with one "resistance" group or another since its creation. Its received alot of damage over those decades.

Sesshoumaru

Akrasia wrote:

The 9/11 attacks were a response to decades of American aggression against poor islamic countries.
The london bombings were a response to U.K. aggression in Iraq and Afghanistan
(previous london bombings were a response to British occupation of Northern Ireland and the repression of the Catholic population)
The Madrid attacks were a response to Spanish Participation in America's 'Coalition' against Islam.
Palestinian suicide attacks are a result of massive repression of the palestinian people by Israel,
And Hezbollah was set up to fight Israeli Occupation of the lebanon.

You don't accept any of this? Do you think that these terrorists are born terrorists? Or that they just hate our freedoms? or that they love the idea of blowing themselves up so they can get a load of virgins in the afterlife?

They think the west is decadent and immoral. So yes they hate our freedom and our culture. Just go to the Al Guardian website and go search for any number of polls they have conducted amongst muslim communities in Britian. You will see most Muslims think we are a decadent soicety. How else can you explain al qaeda designating France as a target? What have those surrender monkeys ever done except bend over backwards for every muslim terrorist out there! How about the failed train bombing attempt in Germany? What has Germany done to this deserve that? Oh and yes I do think they look forward to their 72 virgins in the afterlife.

Frederico

Sesshoumaru wrote:

You know you're just encouraging the terrorists with that kind of mentality. Who "made" the 19 arab muslim terrorists who flew the planes into the twin towers? Are you one of those muslim apologists who blames the western world for everything? I suppose you would believe the west "made" those terrorists as well?

Yes I would like to know what you think motivated them aswell..

I don't sympathise with the IRA, but i UNDERSTAND why many young men joined the IRA after events such as Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland.

I don't agree with her or sympathise with her, but after reading her story I UNDERSTAND why a young Palestinian female lawyer strapped explosives to herself and blew herself, and innocent bystanders up in Israel.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

Do you think that these terrorists are born terrorists? Or that they just hate our freedoms?

I don't think they are born terrorists, or that they hate freedoms. If anything, I suspect the people would like to emulate the Western World if they were allowed. I do believe in nurture over nature, they are carefully cultivated by religious and political fanatics in their countries.

Sesshoumaru

tallus wrote:

I'd like to know what you think motivated the terrorists to fly planes in to the twin towers.

Well normally if the suicide bomber leaves a video message he reads verses from the Quran to justify the attack he is about to commit. So I guess that would mean its some part of his religion that motivates him/her? Makes sense to me since we never see any of these supposed moderate peaceful Muslims quoting verses from Quran to refute the suicide bombers.

Mick86

Jakkass wrote:

if there were cluster bombs dropped all over Tipperary you would...

Of course I would. But they aren't being dropped all over Tipperary and my children are not in danger from them so I don't care. It isn't my problem.

I suspect that those of you who do pretend to care about Lebanese children playing with cluster bombs are just hyped up because the Israelis did it. Many more people have been getting killed in Darfur for years and nobody apart from John O'Shea (the prat) is exactly foaming at the mouth about the Sudanese government. The children of Chechnya are suffering the same from Russian clustermunitions and butterfly mines. Again silence from the ranks of the concerned.

Just to clear up an impending point of confusion, I used those examples to highlight your hypocrisy and not because I care much about the people of Darfur or Chechnya.

Frederico

Sesshoumaru wrote:

They think the west is decadent and immoral. So yes they hate our freedom and our culture. Just go to the Al Guardian website and go search for any number of polls they have conducted amongst muslim communities in Britian. You will see most Muslims think we are a decadent soicety. How else can you explain al qaeda designating France as a target? What have those surrender monkeys ever done except bend over backwards for every muslim terrorist out there! How about the failed train bombing attempt in Germany? What has Germany done to this deserve that? Oh and yes I do think they look forward to their 72 virgins in the afterlife.

Well you're entitled to your opinion. Try to think about it this way, if China, out of oil interests, started "interfering" in the Middle East, started supporting one nation against another in wars, helped arm one nation with nuclear weapons, etc, etc, etc. Then I would not be surprised to see terrorist attacks against China. I also wouldn't be surprised to hear certain people saying its because the evil turrist muslims hate China's communist way of life.

You are right, many Muslims do dislike or even detest the decadent lifestyle in the West, BUT the number one factor for the cause of terrorism is NOT that, it is OUR interference in the Middle East since the CRUSADES hundreds of years ago, up until Israel, Iran/Iraq war, Gulf wars, etc, etc, etc.

Mick86

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Well using your logic Akrasia we will never win this war against Islamic terrorists because we'll never be allowed fire a weapon at anything or anyone.

We're supposed to win their hearts and minds with empathy and feeling their pain.

Sesshoumaru wrote:

At the same time the terrorists won't stop attacking us until we're all dead or converted to Islam. Just look at poor France. They oppose nearly all of America's plans, they make a great show of championing Arab causes and they certainly give Israel a much harder time than any other Western country. But still Al Qaeda designates France an enemy???

The dastardly French won't let little Muslim girls wear headscarves. That warrants at least a couple of Air France jets getting whacked, doesn't it.

Frederico

Mick86 wrote:

Of course I would. But they aren't being dropped all over Tipperary and my children are not in danger from them so I don't care. It isn't my problem.

I suspect that those of you who do pretend to care about Lebanese children playing with cluster bombs are just hyped up because the Israelis did it. Many more people have been getting killed in Darfur for years and nobody apart from John O'Shea (the prat) is exactly foaming at the mouth about the Sudanese government. The children of Chechnya are suffering the same from Russian clustermunitions and butterfly mines. Again silence from the ranks of the concerned.

Just to clear up an impending point of confusion, I used those examples to highlight your hypocrisy and not because I care much about the people of Darfur or Chechnya.

Since when do we have to listen to Russia and the Sudanise government preaching to us everyday about freedom and ideals and beacons of hope? I do agree with you that the Chechnyan children and the Refugees are ignored.

Mick86

Frederico wrote:

I also wouldn't be surprised to hear certain people saying its because the evil turrist muslims hate China's communist way of life.

The Chinese communists are godless barbarians. Of course the Muslims detest them. They still buy weapons from them though. That said both Osama and Saddam were once upon a time best buddies of the west. So the Chinese should not get too complacent especially since there's a small Muslim population somehwere out there in China I think.

Frederico wrote:

.... it is OUR interference in the Middle East since the CRUSADES hundreds of years ago, up until Israel, Iran/Iraq war, Gulf wars, etc, etc, etc.

Western interference in the ME cannot explain Britain's terrorist problem, the source of which is Pakistani Muslims who were brought up in Britain.

It's an unfortunate fact that the Arabs control the oil we need to keep our economies booming along. Obviously it's God's fault for putting the oil in the hands of primitives but there you go. God has a sense of humour. I suppose you'd feel better if the Arabs were allowed play games with the oil tap, making a balls of western economies. It would certainly sove the problem of cluster munitions.

On the bright side the oil is running out so we won't need the Arabs much longer. We can develop new sources of energy and the Muslims can go back to staring at the sand and stoning loose women to death in peace.

Sesshoumaru

Frederico wrote:

Well you're entitled to your opinion. Try to think about it this way, if China, out of oil interests, started "interfering" in the Middle East, started supporting one nation against another in wars, helped arm one nation with nuclear weapons, etc, etc, etc. Then I would not be surprised to see terrorist attacks against China. I also wouldn't be surprised to hear certain people saying its because the evil turrist muslims hate China's communist way of life.

You are right, many Muslims do dislike or even detest the decadent lifestyle in the West, BUT the number one factor for the cause of terrorism is NOT that, it is OUR interference in the Middle East since the CRUSADES hundreds of years ago, up until Israel, Iran/Iraq war, Gulf wars, etc, etc, etc.

The crusades weren't just some little adventure Europe decided to have one day. They were a RESPONSE to the Muslims invading Europe. All of Spain was already in the hands of Muslims and many parts of southern France before Europe fought back in the crusades. The crusaders saved Europe. We can be thankful they had the balls to do what they did.

Mick86

Frederico wrote:

Since when do we have to listen to Russia and the Sudanise government preaching to us everyday about freedom and ideals and beacons of hope?

Grow up. Surely you don't take GWB's freedom and democracy bullsh*t seriously. And you can bet that Putin and whatever Neanderthal runs Sudan has a line of the same kind of guff also. They just don't appear on Sky News much.

Frederico wrote:

I do agree with you that the Chechnyan children and the Refugees are ignored.

They should declare war on Israel. It's the only way to get the attention of the Save-the-World crowd.

oscarBravo

Mick86 wrote:

Grow up.

If you can't make your point without getting personal, you're undermining whatever point you had. Don't do it again, thanks.

Akrasia

Sesshoumaru wrote:

They think the west is decadent and immoral. So yes they hate our freedom and our culture.

Guess what, Many christians think our society is decadent and immoral also. The Neo-cons in america are totally against liberal personal freedoms, sexual freedom mainly. Just because they don't like the way we live does not mean they are prepared to blow themselves up to stop us.
re: the virgins, how does that explain female suicide bombers?

Akrasia

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Well normally if the suicide bomber leaves a video message he reads verses from the Quran to justify the attack he is about to commit. So I guess that would mean its some part of his religion that motivates him/her? Makes sense to me since we never see any of these supposed moderate peaceful Muslims quoting verses from Quran to refute the suicide bombers.

yes we do there's a website here: http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

And i would wager that if you looked at the diaries of almost any soldier or fighter who was going into battle and knew he was going to die, he would probably mention god somewhere amongst his last words

Mick86

oscarBravo wrote:

If you can't make your point without getting personal, you're undermining whatever point you had. Don't do it again, thanks.

Nothing personal intended. Just trying to point out that Frederico (and anybody else that believes the US is trying to spread the light of democracy) is being a little naive.

Sesshoumaru

Akrasia wrote:

Guess what, Many christians think our society is decadent and immoral also. The Neo-cons in america are totally against liberal personal freedoms, sexual freedom mainly. Just because they don't like the way we live does not mean they are prepared to blow themselves up to stop us.
re: the virgins, how does that explain female suicide bombers?

Its funny how we don't see wave after wave of christians strapping on their suicide vests isn't it? I wonder why that is? Whats so different about Muslims? Why do they resort to jihad? and I didn't say 72 virgins waiting for them in heaven is the only reason. Its just one more reason for them to strap on their suicide vests/backpacks and go out and kill some more decadent western infidels.

Akrasia

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Its funny how we don't see wave after wave of christians strapping on their suicide vests isn't it? I wonder why that is? Whats so different about Muslims? Why do they resort to jihad? and I didn't say 72 virgins waiting for them in heaven is the only reason. Its just one more reason for them to strap on their suicide vests/backpacks and go out and kill some more decadent western infidels.

the difference is that there are no christian societies living in the kinds of desperate conditions that exist in Gaza and the west bank.

Suicide bombing is a military tactic used by desperate people.

Mick86

Akrasia wrote:

Guess what, Many christians think our society is decadent and immoral also. The Neo-cons in america are totally against liberal personal freedoms, sexual freedom mainly. Just because they don't like the way we live does not mean they are prepared to blow themselves up to stop us.

I don't know about that. Ireland is probbaly one of the few places the US hasn't bombed at some stage.

Akrasia wrote:

re: the virgins, how does that explain female suicide bombers?

Females probably don't make it to paradise and if they do it's a segregated paradise. Islam is not an equal opportunities religion.

Mick86

Sesshoumaru wrote:

Its funny how we don't see wave after wave of christians strapping on their suicide vests isn't it? I wonder why that is? Whats so different about Muslims? Why do they resort to jihad? and I didn't say 72 virgins waiting for them in heaven is the only reason. Its just one more reason for them to strap on their suicide vests/backpacks and go out and kill some more decadent western infidels.

Islamic Fundamentalism is an extreme example of how religion can be twisted to incite hatred, genocide and all that other good stuff. Not a situation unique to Islam by the way.

Jihad is supposed to be the battle within the person between good and evil not a religious war. Suicide is a major taboo in Islam. The punishment being that the person has to repeat the act for all eternity.

Sesshoumaru

Akrasia wrote:

yes we do there's a website here: http://www.islamfortoday.com/terrorism.htm

And i would wager that if you looked at the diaries of almost any soldier or fighter who was going into battle and knew he was going to die, he would probably mention god somewhere amongst his last words

Koran [9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Koran [4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Religion of peace? I don't think so. What you've got there are Muslims who don't follow the teachings in the Quran literally. Which is the way it should be! As there is some good stuff in there. But the terrorists aren't the ones perverting Islam, they are simply following its teaching as though it was the literal truth written by god. Which is of course what Muslims are supposed to believe. I prefer to think of the terrorists as orthodox muslims.

Mick86

Akrasia wrote:

the difference is that there are no christian societies living in the kinds of desperate conditions that exist in Gaza and the west bank.

Rubbish.

Akrasia wrote:

Suicide bombing is a military tactic used by desperate people.

Like your desperate attempts to justify Islamic terrorism. None of the 9/11 bombers was from Gaza or the West Bank. They were Egyptians and Saudis. Osama Bin Laden comes from an extremely rich Saudi family. Britain's terrorist threat comes from British born and raised Muslims of Pakistani origin.