IDF commander: We fired more than a million cluster bomblets in Lebanon

Sesshoumaru

Mick86 wrote:

I don't know about that. Ireland is probbaly one of the few places the US hasn't bombed at some stage.



Females probably don't make it to paradise and if they do it's a segregated paradise. Islam is not an equal opportunities religion.

Well if there are any muslims out there feel free to correct me if I am wrong. But aren't women entering mosques supposed to enter through the backdoor? They only get to pray in a "special" room set aside for them. So it wouldn't surprise me to learn they go to some segregated version of Heaven! I wonder do they get 72 virgin men? probably not :rolleyes:

Here is an example I came across the other day of just how twisted and sick certain parts of Islam are when it comes to women. Please pay special attention to the picture of the women protesting against a change in the law.

tallus

Mick86 wrote:

Rubbish.



Like your desperate attempts to justify Islamic terrorism. None of the 9/11 bombers was from Gaza or the West Bank. They were Egyptians and Saudis. Osama Bin Laden comes from an extremely rich Saudi family. Britain's terrorist threat comes from British born and raised Muslims of Pakistani origin.

By the same token Mick, there have been suicide bombers from gaza and the west bank, and they are living in a desperate situation in the occupied territories. I didn't think Akrasia was "desperately" trying to justify terrorism of any kind, but that's my opinion.

Sesshoumaru

tallus wrote:

By the same token Mick, there have been suicide bombers from gaza and the west bank, and they are living in a desperate situation in the occupied territories. I didn't think Akrasia was "desperately" trying to justify terrorism of any kind, but that's my opinion.

So there are suicide bombers from poor countries and there are suicide bombers from rich countries like Saudi Arabia. So maybe material wealth isn't the key to the suicide bomber? No one here can seriously suggest Saudi Arabia has been persecuted by western countries? I mean how many trillions of dollars have we transferred to that country? Just because by some lucky accident of geology they are sitting on top of our oil.

Mick86

tallus wrote:

By the same token Mick, there have been suicide bombers from gaza and the west bank, and they are living in a desperate situation in the occupied territories. I didn't think Akrasia was "desperately" trying to justify terrorism of any kind, but that's my opinion.

Of course there have been Palestinian suicide bombers. But poverty stricken Gazans cannot explain the desire of wealthy Saudi Arabians to kill themselves along with thousands of Americans. You'll be blaming the Israelis for the wackos in Moyross next.

tallus

Mick86 wrote:

Of course there have been Palestinian suicide bombers. But poverty stricken Gazans cannot explain the desire of wealthy Saudi Arabians to kill themselves along with thousands of Americans. You'll be blaming the Israelis for the wackos in Moyross next.

I dont know where that "blaming the Israelis" comment is coming from, it is after all, your opinion, and I think you should keep it to yourself unless it has a direct context to my post, and in this case it doesn't.

tallus

Sesshoumaru wrote:

So there are suicide bombers from poor countries and there are suicide bombers from rich countries like Saudi Arabia. So maybe material wealth isn't the key to the suicide bomber? No one here can seriously suggest Saudi Arabia has been persecuted by western countries? I mean how many trillions of dollars have we transferred to that country? Just because by some lucky accident of geology they are sitting on top of our oil.

Ok.. bearing in mind that there is a high level of wealth in Saudi, are you contending that the wealth is spread out evenly over the entire population, or are you saying that everyone in Saudi has the same net worth and the same annual income ? I have yet to hear of any Oil rich Saudis actually killing themselves in suicide attacks, but I'm open to correction there. I'd wager that the majority of suicide bombers come from poor and underprivelidged backgrounds, regardless of what country they were born in. Undoubtedly some of them do it from an idealistic background, but I'd think they are a minority.

Capt'n Midnight

MLRS M270
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/08/18/global14050_txt.htm

The M26 is a 227mm unguided artillery rocket delivered by the Multiple Launch Rocket System (MLRS) to a range of thirty-two to thirty-eight kilometers. Once it is over the target area, the rocket scatters 644 M77 submunitions into a 200 by 100 meter area. The submunitions are also called dual purpose grenades or Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions (DPICMs). Each MLRS launcher carries twelve M26 rockets. A typical volley of six rockets would release 3,864 submunitions over an area with a 0.6 mile (1 kilometer) radius.

The M77 submunition has both antitank and antipersonnel effects. A molten slug of metal projects downward, and is intended to penetrate up to seventy-seven millimeters of armor plate. In addition, the metal body of the submunition disintegrates into fragments that can kill or wound within a four meter radius.
...
What is the failure rate of the M77 submunitions contained in the M26 rocket?

A Pentagon report from 2005 cites a failure rate of 5 percent for these submunitions, while an earlier Pentagon report to the U.S. Congress cited a 16 percent failure rate. Some M26 rockets have a submunition failure rate as high as 23 percent, according to the U.S. General Accounting Office. Testing by the British military indicates a failure rate between 5 percent and 10 percent and is largely dependant on ground conditions and range.
...
Landing in muddy or soft ground can significantly increase the failure rate. The ribbons used as deceleration devices can cause the submunitions to hit and get hung-up on trees and vegetation or on structures. Trees and overgrowth can also slow the munitions to the point that they have insufficient energy to explode on impact. Submunitions can also hit each other and be damaged as they are dispersed from the spinning artillery round, or hit the ground in a position that fails to initiate their impact fuze. The M77 submunition must strike a surface at an angle of approximately 65 degrees to 90 degrees to detonate.

http://www.mcc.org/clusterbomb/report/chapter1.htm - more on MLRS in the middle

Actual battlefield conditions may create higher dud rates than those experienced during testing. Reports from the Kuwait theater of battle said that "one third of submunitions failed to explode due to landing in soft sand."
...
Wright notes that the UXO ". . . is killing Kuwaiti civilians, desert nomads, soldiers along with civilian contractors from the U.S., France, and Britain."(142) As of 1993, estimates were that 1600 civilians had been killed, and over 2,500 injured from unexploded submunitions since the end of the war in Iraq and Kuwait.

Frederico

Things are getting out of proportion here..

Israel dropped cluster bombs to punish Lebanese civilians. Its scorched earth policy.

I would rather live in Haifa any day than in Gaza for obvious reasons.

The West by its aggressive actions provokes many Muslims and creates terrorists. Terrorism will never be defeated by force, since force just makes terrorism stronger. There are many other ways to solve this problem, however we probably won't see them for many many years. The damage being done is irreperable.

Cluster munitions/white phosphorus/gas should never be used in or near civilian areas.

Manic Moran

Akrasia wrote:

Why does Mossad not have a uniform? because they would not be able to operate if they had. Mossad are not just an intelligence agency, they conduct assasinations. They killed the lebanese prime minister just over a year ago.

I just copped this one.

Who do you say killed Rafik Hariri?

Please compare and contrast your answer with the general consensus as defined by the UN and the Lebanese People.

NTM

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

the difference is that there are no christian societies living in the kinds of desperate conditions that exist in Gaza and the west bank.

Suicide bombing is a military tactic used by desperate people.

Suicide bombing is a military tactic, yes. But desperate? The main reason the Palestinian people are still living in desperate conditions is because of the number of "resistance" groups that have continued their wars with Israel regardless of the circumstances. Each time a border crossing is opened, an attack is made which closes it. Each time Israel starts making concessions in land, possession or aid, its an attack that ends Israel's willingness to help.

Israel is an occupier, and has kept the Palestinian people down on numerous occasions, but their own people have kept them in that situation for decades. Hamas and the other "resistance" groups feed of the desperation that exists in Palestine & Gaza, and have very little desire to see that end. As long as the Palestinians are poor, and on threat of starvation they have endless numbers with which to train fighters & suicide bombers to attack Israel.

The use of suicide bombers in the M.East is intentional. Its not about desperation. Otherwise it would be a hell of alot more common, especially on mainland Africa or a number of wartorn countries.

Frederico wrote:

Israel dropped cluster bombs to punish Lebanese civilians. Its scorched earth policy.

No. Israel dropped cluster bombs targeting supposed Hezbollah positions, that were placed in or around civilian areas. Nothing you've provided has proven that this is an attempt to punish the Lebanese people.

uberpixie

Deleted User wrote:

Suicide bombing is a military tactic, yes. But desperate? The main reason the Palestinian people are still living in desperate conditions is because of the number of "resistance" groups that have continued their wars with Israel regardless of the circumstances. Each time a border crossing is opened, an attack is made which closes it. Each time Israel starts making concessions in land, possession or aid, its an attack that ends Israel's willingness to help.

Israel is an occupier, and has kept the Palestinian people down on numerous occasions, but their own people have kept them in that situation for decades. Hamas and the other "resistance" groups feed of the desperation that exists in Palestine & Gaza, and have very little desire to see that end. As long as the Palestinians are poor, and on threat of starvation they have endless numbers with which to train fighters & suicide bombers to attack Israel.

Try telling a farmer who has lost his farm and lively hood to an Israeli settler, thats it's all Hamas's fault.

If I saw an IDF bulldozer knocking my house, I know who I would blame.

It's true that the PLO and Hamas have in the past proved a dis-service to the Palestinian people and cause a lot of deaths of innocent Israelis.

But Israel have an equal part in this mess also with their repessive tactics, indiscrimante shelling of Palestinian civillian areas, stealing of land and mass murder.

Both sides have commited great evils. The media seem to forget this though, and always seem to show a pro Israel slant which is why they get so much backlash on these boards.

Deleted User wrote:

The use of suicide bombers in the M.East is intentional. Its not about desperation. Otherwise it would be a hell of alot more common, especially on mainland Africa or a number of wartorn countries.

The people who organise these acts are not desperate, but the people who carry them out are.
(They are usually poor and do it so their families get the money after their death)

The reason that they use suicide bombing is to make a political statement and to cause as much terror as possible.

Deleted User wrote:

No. Israel dropped cluster bombs targeting supposed Hezbollah positions, that were placed in or around civilian areas. Nothing you've provided has proven that this is an attempt to punish the Lebanese people.

Unfortuantely the IDF seem to consider entire towns and villages as Hezbollah positions.

Polititians in Israel joked openly about sending the Leb back 20 years when they started the campaign.

When you look at the amount of damage they dealt to mainly civillian infrstructure and blockading the sea ports preventing aid arriving to the country, it's not hard to see that they are collectively punishing the civillian population for the actions of a minority of the population.

uberpixie

uberpixie wrote:

Try telling a farmer who has lost his farm and lively hood
to an Israeli settler, thats it's all Hamas's fault.

Nor would I. It would be Israel's fault, as per their illegal resettlement
program.

If I saw an IDF bulldozer knocking my house, I know who I would
blame.

And you would be right to blame Israel for it. However, if you saw Hamas or
another group using your house to store weapons, or use your house to launch
attacks, would you still only blame Israel? Probably.

It's true that the PLO and Hamas have in the past proved a
dis-service to the Palestinian people.

Yup. And while you point out many of the offences that Israel has performed
both above and below, you don't mention the aspects that Israel has done to
try resolve the problem, which Hamas & the PLO have screwed up.

Don't get me wrong I do this also, but Israel's failure's or offences are
well shown on these boards. The failures of Palestinians/Lebanese aren't
given the same amount of deserved criticism.

But Israel have an equal part in this also with their repessive
tactics, indiscrimante shelling of Palestinian civillian areas, and stealing
of land.

And I totally agree.

Both sides have commited great evils. The media seem to forget this
though, and alwys seem tyo show a pro Israle slant which is why they get so
much backlash on these boards.

Nah. Don't get it. From what I see, I see an overwhelming support for
Palestinian issues in the Media. Emphasis is made about the poverty and the
Israeli attacks within Palestine. Its common to see criticism for Israel
closing border checkpoints/crossings which supply food/aid to Palestine, but
its very rare that we see reports that show that these places are closed in
response to attacks from Palestinian forces. The sympathy of the media is
with Palestine, rather than Israel in many ways.

For example, the media will highlight Israel's military attacks in
Palestine, but won't mention that the PA exists from a treaty that failed,
and Israel allowed them to remain regardless. Or that the Gaza withdrawal
occured, and yet the attacks continue regardless.

The focus is on what Israel does wrong, placing them in the role of the
villain, but there's very little focus on the Palestinian efforts which
jepordise the chances for lasting peace. Even Hamas's refusal to reject
their public desire for the destruction of Israel is often disregarded,
while Israel is protrayed as the problem. Even when talking about the state
of peoples lives in Palestine, large sections refer to Israel's actions, but
little is spoken about the gangs that wander the streets, or the failure(s)
of the Hamas police forces which are more likely to steal than help.

The people who organise these acts are not desperate, but the people
who carry them out are.
(They are usually poor and do it so their families get the money after their
death)

And its the groups that are Hamas, PLO etc that convince these people that
the only way to strike back is through the use of suicide tactics, or
violence. Its strange that each time the lives of the Palestinians have
improved are as a result of peace/cease-fire talks, and not through the
violence they persue.

The reason that they use suicide bombing is to make a political
statement and to cause as much terror as possible.

And its just a military tactic. There's nothing glorious about what they do.
Its no different to Israel using artillery on Lebanese/Palestinian towns, or
the use of cluster bombs.

Both Israel and these "resistance" groups have increased the acceptable
level for attacks. Their tactics, & the tactics of Israel has made "whats
acceptable" in war as being more vicious.

Unfortuantely the IDF seem to consider entire towns and villages as
Hezbollah positions.

Which they may very well have been. However I have no evidence of that. I
have no evidence to show that the people had left these towns/villages, and
only Hezbollah remained when Israel attacked, or not.

Regardless, their use was wrong in the closing stages of the war, since it
had no real benefit beyond making it harder for both the lebanese and
Hezbollah to rebuild these areas.

But I still don't see it as an intentional desire to punish the lebanese.

Polititians in Israel joked openly about sending the Leb back 20
years when they started the campaign.

If their soldiers were not returned. If you're going to use the
quote, at least supply all of it. If hezbollah had returned those soldiers,
then Israel wouldn't have had cause to attack Lebanon. But then thats hardly
an aspect worth considering. Afterall, Israel is always wrong.

When you look at the amount of damage they dealt to mainly civillian
infrstructure and blockading the sea ports preventing aid arriving to the
country, it's not hard to see that they are collectively punishing the
civillian population for the actions of a minority of the
population.

Firstly the blockade. Israel has said that they're maintaining the blockade
to hinder Hezbollah's efforts to rearm during and after the conflict.
Something that posters here seem willing to ignore. In light of the UN's
backsliding on the arms issue, its understandable that Israel desire to have
some way of blocking Hezbollah rearming. I daresay Israel would cease their
blockades if the UN would stand by its promise to enforce the resolution in
its entirity..

Civilian infrastructure. Performed during the conflict with the aim of
crippling the ability of those fighting back to move freely. Personally I
see it as being acceptable to take out such facilities since they made
Hezbollah's job harder. Fairly acceptable these days after the Iraq war.

Now, the collectively punishing for a minority. This I find interesting.
Cause people make such a huge deal about Hezbollah having so much support
from the Lebanese people, for their presence in the Lebanese government, and
the help/aid they've provided over the last few years. And yet they're a
minority that's causing the trouble. After all, if they're such a minority
how is it that they were able to use Lebanon so effectively to attack Israel
over the last 6 years.... The Lebanese were repsonsible for allowing
Hezbollah to use their country for a battlefield. If you want to blame
people, perhaps look to the people that started this recent conflict, and
chose to use Lebanon for the battlefield. I assume Israel pops into your
head as being responsible, rather than Hezbollah?

Frederico

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5360150.stm

The hardcore rightwing Israeli army seems to be having trouble explaining why so many cluster munitions were dropped in the finals days of the war.
Doubtless many more civilians will die after the conflict, a disgusting little legacy left by the Israeli's.

uberpixie

Deleted User wrote:

Yup. And while you point out many of the offences that Israel has performed
both above and below, you don't mention the aspects that Israel has done to
try resolve the problem, which Hamas & the PLO have screwed up.

Don't get me wrong I do this also, but Israel's failure's or offences are
well shown on these boards. The failures of Palestinians/Lebanese aren't
given the same amount of deserved criticism.

When I said the PLO/Hamas were a dis-service: that included shafting peace talks for political point scoring. Not disagreeing with you in the slightest.

Deleted User wrote:

Nah. Don't get it. From what I see, I see an overwhelming support for
Palestinian issues in the Media. Emphasis is made about the poverty and the
Israeli attacks within Palestine. Its common to see criticism for Israel
closing border checkpoints/crossings which supply food/aid to Palestine, but
its very rare that we see reports that show that these places are closed in
response to attacks from Palestinian forces. The sympathy of the media is
with Palestine, rather than Israel in many ways.

For example, the media will highlight Israel's military attacks in
Palestine, but won't mention that the PA exists from a treaty that failed,
and Israel allowed them to remain regardless. Or that the Gaza withdrawal
occured, and yet the attacks continue regardless.

The focus is on what Israel does wrong, placing them in the role of the
villain, but there's very little focus on the Palestinian efforts which
jepordise the chances for lasting peace. Even Hamas's refusal to reject
their public desire for the destruction of Israel is often disregarded,
while Israel is protrayed as the problem. Even when talking about the state
of peoples lives in Palestine, large sections refer to Israel's actions, but
little is spoken about the gangs that wander the streets, or the failure(s)
of the Hamas police forces which are more likely to steal than help.

It really depends what "news" you are watching. In general the news is badly reported, lobsided and partisan for one side or ther other.

Agree that the Palestinians generally get screwed by their own government as well.

Deleted User wrote:

And its the groups that are Hamas, PLO etc that convince these people that
the only way to strike back is through the use of suicide tactics, or
violence. Its strange that each time the lives of the Palestinians have
improved are as a result of peace/cease-fire talks, and not through the
violence they persue.

Well from their point of view, sanctions are never imposed on Israel anytime they commit an attrocity, the US veto anything looking like a bad word said against Israel in the UN.

From their point of view they are on their own and have no outside protection from the West.

Yes Israel is blamed for a lot of things to keep extremists in power, but in that kind of environment, with so much repression and with no real visable help for the West, it's very easy to do.

Deleted User wrote:

And its just a military tactic. There's nothing glorious about what they do.
Its no different to Israel using artillery on Lebanese/Palestinian towns, or
the use of cluster bombs.

Wouldn't descibe any terrorist act as "glorious" either. I agree.

Deleted User wrote:

Both Israel and these "resistance" groups have increased the acceptable
level for attacks. Their tactics, & the tactics of Israel has made "whats
acceptable" in war as being more vicious.

It's a dirty war fought by dirty armies that place no vlaue on the lives civillians on the other side.

Deleted User wrote:

Which they may very well have been. However I have no evidence of that.
I have no evidence to show that the people had left these towns/villages, and only Hezbollah remained when Israel attacked, or not.

Regardless, their use was wrong in the closing stages of the war, since it
had no real benefit beyond making it harder for both the lebanese and
Hezbollah to rebuild these areas.

But I still don't see it as an intentional desire to punish the lebanese.

After the Hezbollah lanuch rocket attacks, they get the hell out and sit out the Israel's response in their bunkers.

Israel know this, but still insist in bombing to bits the civillian areas the attacks come from, so it looks like to the public and the government they are doing a great job and to feel like they are doing something.

Israel knew civillians were trapped in these areas: the roads were bombed out and Israel shot at anything that moved coming out of the areas as they "might be terrorists".

When you launch cluster bombs into an area it's to kill lots of people: cluster bombs are indiscriminant, you are not supposed to target civillain areas with weapons like that.

Why does Israel use such a weapon in a civillain area, when they know people will try to move back there to whats left of their homes?

When a county's armed forces joke they are going to turn the clock back on a country by 20 years do you honestly think they don't intend to fcuk the country up as much as they can?

As Israel has shown before, they have zero respect for the lives of the civies of "enemy" nations (just as the "enemy nations" have shown they hold Jewish civies to the same value), what makes you believe they are doing their best to protect innocent lives on the other side?

How is cluster bombing villages with cluster bombs in huge numbers of bomblets protecting the civillians of the Leb?

Even if Israel does commit mass murder, like they did back in the 80's, what do they have to fear?

UN sanctions the US veto? More money sent by the US to spend on US arms?

Deleted User wrote:

If their soldiers were not returned. If you're going to use the
quote, at least supply all of it. If hezbollah had returned those soldiers,
then Israel wouldn't have had cause to attack Lebanon. But then thats hardly
an aspect worth considering. Afterall, Israel is always wrong.

The only reason Israel attacked was because their new PM wanted to like like a tough guy and the army wanted to look hard. The soldiers were an excuse.

Israel started off at the start of the "war" claiming there were going in to wipeout the Hezbollah because the UN were pussies and were not needed.

That changed to "damage" the Hezbollah.

By the end it was "we are only here to wait for the UN to do their job".

They only started the war becuase the idiots in charge thought they could win simply by bombing from the air with no need to send it ground troops.

After all you don't go to war unless you think you can win easy.

A nice bombing campaign, no need to send in ground troops which would risk casualties and piss the public off.

What they got instead was a mess that they are trying fast to pull out off.

They bit off more than they could chew and made the IDF look like fools.

Deleted User wrote:

Firstly the blockade. Israel has said that they're maintaining the blockade
to hinder Hezbollah's efforts to rearm during and after the conflict.
Something that posters here seem willing to ignore. In light of the UN's
backsliding on the arms issue, its understandable that Israel desire to have
some way of blocking Hezbollah rearming. I daresay Israel would cease their
blockades if the UN would stand by its promise to enforce the resolution in
its entirity..

Why block aid ships? Blocking arms traffic fine, but why block all the aid ships?

Deleted User wrote:

Civilian infrastructure. Performed during the conflict with the aim of
crippling the ability of those fighting back to move freely. Personally I
see it as being acceptable to take out such facilities since they made
Hezbollah's job harder. Fairly acceptable these days after the Iraq war.

The Iraq war is a joke gone badly wrong started on lies and diliberate misleading of many countries.

I wouldn't hold it up as a good example, maybe of how not to do things!

How does bombing airports and petrol effect the Hezbollah? Do people think they spent 6 years tooling up and still get their electirity from the main leccy grid and petrol down the road?

The only reason the infrastructure was bombed to bits, is to hopefully piss off the civillians by collective punishment so much that they turn on the Hezbollah.

Deleted User wrote:

Now, the collectively punishing for a minority. This I find interesting.
Cause people make such a huge deal about Hezbollah having so much support
from the Lebanese people, for their presence in the Lebanese government, and
the help/aid they've provided over the last few years. And yet they're a
minority that's causing the trouble. After all, if they're such a minority
how is it that they were able to use Lebanon so effectively to attack Israel
over the last 6 years.... The Lebanese were repsonsible for allowing
Hezbollah to use their country for a battlefield. If you want to blame
people, perhaps look to the people that started this recent conflict, and
chose to use Lebanon for the battlefield. I assume Israel pops into your
head as being responsible, rather than Hezbollah?

The Hezbollah only had a minority support of 1/3 of the country, most people in the Leb want a secular society and were not happy about their actions.

The Leb government did nothing as their army is weak and they would start a civila war.

As the Hezbollah ae the only force standing up to Israel in the country during the war and as they are the only major source of aid/social services after the war for many people in that country: their support has grown.

Seriously when Christians start to support fundi Muslims you know something bad is happening :-)



To sum up...

I hate the fact that the various factions in this region, Iran, Syria, Israel, USA and the Hezbollah, insist on using innocent civillians lives as bargin chips to score politcal points and for their own political gain.

I also think it's madness to suggest that cluster bombs/rockets in a civillian area are not a war crime and are not indsicriminant.
(be the from the Hezbollah or Israel)

It is also madness to suggest mass bombing of an entire countires infrstructure is not collective punishment.

Manic Moran

uberpixie wrote:

How does bombing airports and petrol effect the Hezbollah? Do people think they spent 6 years tooling up and still get their electirity from the main leccy grid and petrol down the road?

Well, it stops anyone from flying in resupplies. Would the Iranian transport have tried to land at Beiruit instead of Damascus had the Beiruit airport not been put out of service? We don't know, but it's a possibility. As for energy, I would be surprised if they didn't generally rely on the main grid for day-to-day ops and petrol generators as a backup, but given the low-tech nature of Hezbullah, I don't know how much of a hindrance a lack of electricity would be.

The only reason the infrastructure was bombed to bits, is to hopefully piss off the civillians by collective punishment so much that they turn on the Hezbollah.

I'm sure that thought entered Israel's minds as well.

As the Hezbollah ae the only force standing up to Israel in the country during the war and as they are the only major source of aid/social services after the war for many people in that country: their support has grown.

Seriously when Christians start to support fundi Muslims you know something bad is happening :-)

One of the Lebanese newspapers put out a poll after the shooting was over showing that the large majority of Christians and Druze still want Hezbullah to disarm. I don't know if that status has changed in the last month, but I don't see why it should have. It also doesn't say anything about the non-Muslim support of Hezbullah as a political party, which may have increased.

NTM

Akrasia

Manic Moran wrote:

Well, it stops anyone from flying in resupplies. Would the Iranian transport have tried to land at Beiruit instead of Damascus had the Beiruit airport not been put out of service? We don't know, but it's a possibility. As for energy, I would be surprised if they didn't generally rely on the main grid for day-to-day ops and petrol generators as a backup, but given the low-tech nature of Hezbullah, I don't know how much of a hindrance a lack of electricity would be.

Um, all it takes for a plane to land is long strip of flat land. Drugs smugglers have been landing at makeshift airfields for decades.
Bombing the civilian airport is no different from Hezbollah's missile strike against An Israeli train station. The attack on the train station was described as an attack against civilians by the Israelis while they were busy bombing Beiruit airport.

Capt'n Midnight

Deleted User wrote:

The main reason the Palestinian people are still living in desperate conditions is because of the number of "resistance" groups that have continued their wars with Israel regardless of the circumstances. Each time a border crossing is opened, an attack is made which closes it. Each time Israel starts making concessions in land, possession or aid, its an attack that ends Israel's willingness to help.

It's been a VERY long time since I saw a news report on the BBC that showed the plight of some Palestinian villagers. They had toilets and taps like we do. But they were of no use because the Jewish settlers had pumped so much water out of the ground to irrigate crops that all the wells had dried up. It's a problem that's being going on for decades.

Can you please explain how people who have their drinking water stolen for for use on cash crops, in a arid region are supposed to regard it as a concession ?

There is a saying that a rising tide lifts all boats, or you could look at the concept of "heats and mind" in relation to the how things are fairer than they used to be in Norn Iorn or the opposite down here for those left behind by the celtic tiger. Over there, the money seems to be spent on security rather than on social engineering.

Israel spends roughly three times on Military expenditure as the combined total GDP of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank. Is the wall covered by military budget or the police presence ?

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/is.html Military expenditures - $9.45 billion (2005 est.)
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/we.html GDP (purchasing power parity): $1.8 billion (2003 est.)
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gz.html GDP (purchasing power parity): $768 million (2003 est.)

Victor

Mick86 wrote:

Like your desperate attempts to justify Islamic terrorism. None of the 9/11 bombers was from Gaza or the West Bank. They were Egyptians and Saudis. Osama Bin Laden comes from an extremely rich Saudi family. Britain's terrorist threat comes from British born and raised Muslims of Pakistani origin.

The children of 1980s and 1990s Saudi Arabia have been religiously educated and are provided for. While their fathers were merchants and businessmen, they want for nothing and some dedicate themselves to religion. Some fall under the wrong hand. Their desparation is not of this world.

Deleted User wrote:

Don't get me wrong I do this also, but Israel's failure's or offences are well shown on these boards. The failures of Palestinians/Lebanese aren't given the same amount of deserved criticism.

Who gets criticised fopr failing an exam, the slacker or the A-student?

Deleted User wrote:

Firstly the blockade. Israel has said that they're maintaining the blockade to hinder Hezbollah's efforts to rearm during and after the conflict. Something that posters here seem willing to ignore. In light of the UN's backsliding on the arms issue, its understandable that Israel desire to have some way of blocking Hezbollah rearming. I daresay Israel would cease their blockades if the UN would stand by its promise to enforce the resolution in its entirity..

Was there any evidence of Hezbollah being supplied by sea or air? Israel can easily track what comes and goes between Iran and Lebanon from the Gulf of Aqaba, Eritrea and from American reports from the Persian Gulf and Arabian Sea. So block any ship originating from or stopping in Iran. Leave the big grain ship from Brazil dock. Its not like there won't be an F-16 watching it.

Deleted User wrote:

Civilian infrastructure. Performed during the conflict with the aim of crippling the ability of those fighting back to move freely. Personally I see it as being acceptable to take out such facilities since they made Hezbollah's job harder. Fairly acceptable these days after the Iraq war.

I'm not sure that destroying the electricity supply throughout Lebanon achieved a war aim. If one is detonating a roadside bomb in south Lebanon, all one needs is some AA batteries, not mains supply.

Frederico

Which one of these would be in the news tomorrow?


4 Israeli's killed by unexploded ordinance

OR

4 Lebanese killed by unexploded ordinance


For anyone complaining about news bias TOWARDS the Lebanese, maybe they failed to realise that over 1000 Lebanese civilians died compared to 2 dozen or so Israeli civilians.

I watched mainly Sky News, BBC, ITV and some American news and in the first 2 weeks of the conflict the news seemed to be overwhelmingly focusing on Israeli suffering and casualties, rather than the huge death toll on the other side.

Does anyone know off the top of their head how many Palestinians died? I very much doubt it. There's also the fact that they are dying daily.

Akrasia

yeah, and even when they're not dying, they're suffering humiliation, deprivation and severe repression at the hands of the IDF and the zionist settlers on a level many times worse than the catholics in Northern Ireland ever had to put up with

philologos

The amount of cluster bomblets still unexploded in Lebanon is atrocious, people still can't move back into their homes. I think that more military need to be placed there to clear out cluster bomblets. I also think that Germany's move to deploy troops in Lebanon in the Reichstag today was a good move. I also think that Irish troops need to be deployed as soon as possible to clear up the bomblets if anything, and hopefully to hold potential Israeli attacks, or attacks from militant groups.

Manic Moran

Don't you think the Irish forces are stretched enough as it is?

China's apparently looking for a larger Lebanon role.

NTM