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Popes comments about Islam.
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15-09-2006 10:35amI am pre-empting possible issues on a controversial topic in the news. Please keep all related comments to what happened in this thread and please remain within the guidelines of the charter. Thanks.
Here is the full speech (so people can understand context)
http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=947480
Comments
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Even before reading the full speech I pretty much knew his words were being taken out of context. He quotes what someone else said, hardly worth getting worked up about it.0
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I got bored of reading it all as it mostly a load of crap about, well I'm not quite sure. But it seemed more like he was using that statement from some old emperor as an example of what a load of rubbish all religions used to spout much more often about destroying each others infidels and he then seems to go on about saying thats a load of old cobblers. Really he should have found a better example to use of some ancient Islamic text saying that the daft christians were all just about using the sword to spread their gospel though, but it didn't really seem like he was actually attaking Islam at all.
Just proves that hes a bit daft really.0 -
The quote about forced conversions to Islam will get the headlines, but indeed this is not really his point. At the same time, he is implicitly suggesting that Mohammed preached religious tolerance in his early years (when he needed to be tolerated), but changed the message to one of expansion when he was powerful enough to do it. Essentially he’s suggesting the message was tailored to suit Mohammed’s needs, but even that's not his core point.
I think his key point is really that he sees reason as a Christian core value, meaning the faith can happily exist and grow in a secular society. He contrasts this with what he sees as the irrational or “absolutely transcendent” view of God in Islam.
If he sticks to the ideas he’s outlining, it could actually be an exciting message for his Church. However, the openness of Catholicism to intellectual enquiry has hardly been a core value for so terribly long. For example, up to fifty years ago, Teilhard de Chardin was prevented by the Church from publishing his works during his lifetime. They set out a vision of the spiritual significance of evolution. When they were finally published after his death, the Vatican issued a warning saying… it is sufficiently clear that the above-mentioned works abound in such ambiguities and indeed even serious errors, as to offend Catholic doctrine.
For this reason, the most eminent and most revered Fathers of the Holy Office exhort all Ordinaries as well as the superiors of Religious institutes, rectors of seminaries and presidents of universities, effectively to protect the minds, particularly of the youth, against the dangers presented by the works of Fr. Teilhard de Chardin and of his followers.
If the Pope is moving to accept that views such as those set out by Teilhard are welcome in the Church, then indeed he can claim to have a position that far outstrips the ability of other faiths to cope with modernity and change. Otherwise, I’m not so sure the Pope can make this claim.0 -
Statements like that of the pope make me sad. He could easily have shown that he doesn't necessarily agree with such a quote. That would have made things a whole lot better. He decided not to though.
A figure like the pope should be careful not to break bridges that are built between faiths. The late Jean Paul II made a great amount of effort to build bridges and I hope that Benedict doesn't ruin all his work.
I know that this was only a small part of his entire speech (and I have read the speech) but even within their original context, these statements are offensive and ridiculous.
The worst part of this is that this contributes to spreading wide-spread ignorance of Islam and spreading the idea that Islam was spread by the sword... which of course it wasn't. The verse stating "There is no compulsion in religion" was not just for the early times in Mecca (as was stated in the speech) and proof that people were not forced to convert to Islam is that there were (and are today) a number of Islamic states where non-Muslims were free to have their own faith.
His statements show a great deal of ignorance of Islam on his part. Either that or he intentionally misled the people. Only God knows his intention for sure so we must give him the benefit of the doubt but I would hope that he decides to educate himself on Islam before deciding to discuss any aspect of it again in the future.
In an age where things are getting increasingly difficult, people should be trying to make their best efforts to ensure we all live in peace.0 -
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the_new_mr wrote:That would have made things a whole lot better. He decided not to though.The late Jean Paul II made a great amount of effort to build bridges and I hope that Benedict doesn't ruin all his work.I know that this was only a small part of his entire speech (and I have read the speech) but even within their original context, these statements are offensive and ridiculous.The worst part of this is that this contributes to spreading wide-spread ignorance of Islam and spreading the idea that Islam was spread by the sword... which of course it wasn't.The verse stating "There is no compulsion in religion" was not just for the early times in Mecca (as was stated in the speech) and proof that people were not forced to convert to Islam is that there were (and are today) a number of Islamic states where non-Muslims were free to have their own faith.In an age where things are getting increasingly difficult, people should be trying to make their best efforts to ensure we all live in peace.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Wibbs wrote:we won't see the like of John Paul II for a while I'd say. Huge figure of the 20th century.Wibbs wrote:The issue I have is how fast the effigy burning starts. Again this may be purely down to the times at hand, but the "Muslim world" seems very quick to take offense and start aggressive demonstrations. It feels to an outsider that some factions are almost "looking for trouble" and bringing many Muslims who may otherwise have brushed this off along with them. "Ordinary" Muslims need to stop giving these factions power.
However, I doubt very many Muslims are prepared to just "brush this off" as you put it. I didn't attend any effigy burning and I don't wish to kill the pope or anything crazy like that but I took serious offense to such a statement and am a little angry too. Every single Muslim I've talked to is really upset about this and I believe that we have every right to be. I'm not the kind of guy to get upset over nothing but this is most certainly something.Wibbs wrote:The fact is that both Christianity and Islam were spread by or on the back of the sword. Christianity when Rome and later empires took it on board(sth America anyone). To be fair to Islam it at least laid done rules for the prosecution of such.
Allow me to be so lazy and quote something I said in a different thread which is very fitting here.the_new_mr wrote:I'd like to straighten out a few points here that some people seem to be quite ignorant of. One is that forcing someone to become Muslim is completely forbidden in Islam. The famous verse:
Al-Baqara:256
"There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower."
And here's the reason for revelation for the above verse. Pagans in Mecca who may have worshipped God but also falsely worshipped idols alongside God largely favoured having boys instead of girls to the extent that they used to perform the disgusting act of burying baby girls alive!! An act completely forbidden in Islam of course.
Anyway, some of these pagans used to say to God "Oh God! If you let us have a boy, we will make him a Jew". So, what happened is that several pagan families had Jewish boys in their families. Later, when some of these pagans rejected their false worships and embraced Islam, they began to put pressure on their Jewish children to embrace Islam as well. Verse number 256 from chapter 2 was revealed protecting the decision taken by the Jewish youth showing that you cannot force someone to become a Muslim. Islam after all, like any religion, is an action of the heart.Wibbs wrote:Equally you could argue that the instruction of death to apostates in Islam is totally at odds with the idea of no compulsion.Wibbs wrote:There are other examples of saving one's neck by converting to Islam in The Prophet's time.Wibbs wrote:it was naturally slanted heavily towards Islam and Muslims.Wibbs wrote:Also bridge building goes both ways.
www.bridges-foundation.org
They're site seems to be down at the moment. Here's something they set up though. An interesting read I think you'll find.
http://www.knud-holmboe.com/
He's some guy. A real hero of Islam.0 -
I have to say the whole reaction to the rather selective quoting from the speech give by the Holy Father smacks of opportunism from where I’m standing.
Certainly if the quotation had been voiced as the personally held view of the pope there would be cause for concern, but this is plainly not the case once taken in the context of the overall lecture.
And while it must be said that the_new_mr is a highly effective spokesman for Islam the vision of Islam as a peaceful all-inclusive religion it is not one that the majority of non-muslim people would identify with. A religion is judged as much by its creed (and I’m willing to accept the view espoused by new_mr_mir is the ideal), equally it is judged by the actions of its practitioners ( the various attempted church burnings make a lie of the idea of inclusiveness ).0 -
Without a doubt the people who burned churchers are evil people and I agree there are far to many of these people within the faith.0
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RTE and most stations really covered the story badly when it appeared first, simply quoting the selective quote then, saying there was controversy and showing images of the protests in pakkistan. Reporting on the reaction. They didn't put it in context or explain it like hobbes did. They 'reported it' this habit of RTE reporting international news stories like this without gving an analysis is really sloppy. Like saying today george bush said this ... without saying well he may have said that but the the reality is this.
Anyway listening to RTE this morning and the group show had someone making the points Rev H said, that it was pretty clear some muslim leader looking for political power selectively quoted and translated this german speech and sent it out like press release to stir up reactions in his followers. And the countries he mentioned Iran and Syria???
No mention of Saudi Arabia where the reactions against the cartoons was initiated from the muslim side by all accounts.0 -
wes wrote:Without a doubt the people who burned churchers are evil people and I agree there are far to many of these people within the faith.
But rather (and its my own view) that islam has allowed itself to be radicalised through the rise of the Wahhabi sect. Its seems to me that the islam vs everyone else is getting generated by this. The uproar about the popes speech seems to be part of this.0 -
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Rev Hellfire wrote:One thing I would say on that, is that I don't believe myself that Islam has more of 'those people within the faith' than say christanity by default.
But rather (and its my own view) that islam has allowed itself to be radicalised through the rise of the Wahhabi sect. Its seems to me that the islam vs everyone else is getting generated by this. The uproar about the popes speech seems to be part of this.
I think the power of the Wahhabi's comes from there oil money. They fund mosques the world over and hence have a great deal of influence. I am not fan of the Wahhabi's and we would be better off without them.0 -
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the_new_mr wrote:However, I doubt very many Muslims are prepared to just "brush this off" as you put it. I didn't attend any effigy burning and I don't wish to kill the pope or anything crazy like that but I took serious offense to such a statement and am a little angry too. Every single Muslim I've talked to is really upset about this and I believe that we have every right to be. I'm not the kind of guy to get upset over nothing but this is most certainly something.I think you'll find that it wasn't. And even if it was (and it wasn't) then this is completely against Islam. If you're going to make statements like that Wibbs then you must back them up with facts.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Can anybody publish a list of Things That Don't Offend Islam?
Just so the rest of us can thread lightly:rolleyes:0 -
dathi1 wrote:Can anybody publish a list of Things That Don't Offend Islam?
Just so the rest of us can thread lightly:rolleyes:
I hope thats not sarcasm. You do know that the pope quoted a reference that Islam was spread by the sword. I'm pretty that would offend any people of any religon.
In all this mess people missed the other news of the US Christian league demanding the retraction of a religous cartoon in the US (and got it).
*shrug*
I guess the answer is to be a bit more mindful of what you say about any religon.0 -
Let me just start by completley condemning the attacks on the churches. The people who carried out this act are a complete disgrace to humanity and this kind of thing has no foundation in Islam whatsoever.
I'd also like to say that this is the second time I'm writing this post because we just suffered a power fluctuation causing the computer to restartMaybe God did it so that I could write a particular phrase better.
Wibbs wrote:All that happened was that another religious leader from another faith when giving a speech quotedthe view of Islam a long dead emperor. A view extant at the time. A view that in this speech at least the Pope doesn't agree with. How often do you hear Muslim leaders decrying much of the west and indeed aspects of Christianity. How many Christians are demonstrating.
Anyway, since the Pope has now clarified his position (although some say that technically speaking he was apologising for the reaction and not the action itself), I don't see any need in going into this further so we should probably just leave it at that. Peace and respect is the way forward.Wibbs wrote:The Prophet himself built a small religious empire in the Arabian lands on the back of battles with other tribes. While Islam has obviously gained converts through other means then and now much of it's early success was down to military action.
Fighting sucks. There's no doubt about it. But, unfortunately, it is sometimes necessary. A verse from the Quran.
Al-Baqara:216
"Fighting is ordained for you, even though it be hateful to you; but it may well be that you hate a thing the while it is good for you, and it may well be that you love a thing the while it is bad for you: and God knows, whereas you do not know."
Also, the following link explains the whole thing very well. I'd urge everyone to read it.
http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE&cid=1123996015820Rev Hellfire wrote:And while it must be said that the_new_mr is a highly effective spokesman for IslamI am honoured to be doing this. Anything good I do is only because God lets me do it. I ask for His forgiveness for anything I may do wrong.
Rev Hellfire wrote:A religion is judged as much by its creed (and I’m willing to accept the view espoused by new_mr_mir is the ideal), equally it is judged by the actions of its practitioners ( the various attempted church burnings make a lie of the idea of inclusiveness ).Wibbs wrote:But rather (and its my own view) that islam has allowed itself to be radicalised through the rise of the Wahhabi sect. Its seems to me that the islam vs everyone else is getting generated by this. The uproar about the popes speech seems to be part of this.
Still, it's very true that some people are too ready to take opportunities like this to their advantage. Still, I think we have to remind ourselves (again) that for many people, this is a case of the last straw that broke the camel's back.Hobbes wrote:In all this mess people missed the other news of the US Christian league demanding the retraction of a religous cartoon in the US (and got it).Hobbes wrote:I guess the answer is to be a bit more mindful of what you say about any religon.) If everyone can respect everyone else and everyone understands that there is no good to be gained from offending someone else's religion (whilst at the same time having the right to intelligently and respectfully disagree with it) then the world would be a much much better place.
I pray to God that we have peace.0 -
A quick google later and had a quick read about the cartoon retracted after the appeal of the Christian league. I'm very happy about this. The description of the cartoon ridiculing Jesus (peace be upon him) is completley disgusting. I just don't know how or why people draw things like this. Even if someone is a complete athiest, surely it's just common courtesy not to do things like this.0
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Sadly it looks like murder of a nun might have being a result of all this. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5354862.stm
I have respect for the muslim faith but I'm losing respect for its followers0 -
dent wrote:Sadly it looks like murder of a nun might have being a result of all this. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5354862.stm
I have respect for the muslim faith but I'm losing respect for its followers
They are not followers. If they were they wouldn't of committed murder. Incidently there is no direct link as of yet to the nuns death and this incident (its believed to be though).0 -
A quick google later and had a quick read about the cartoon retracted after the appeal of the Christian league. I'm very happy about this. The description of the cartoon ridiculing Jesus (peace be upon him) is completley disgusting. I just don't know how or why people draw things like this. Even if someone is a complete athiest, surely it's just common courtesy not to do things like this.
the_new_mr would you have a problem with Catholics protesting outside clonskegh mosque over the death of the nun?0 -
Just remember the_new_mr is not on trial here and those sort of questions are best left for the humanities forum.
To answer it somewhat. People are allowed protest, why would anyone have a problem with it unless it wasn't peaceful or was intent on screwing up everyone else in some way.
However the protests would be somewhat skewed. For example killing another person in Islam is considered one of the worst possible things you can do and I think gunning a nun in the back would pretty much guarantee a one way ticket to hell.
The actions of the minority does not reflect the religon as a whole.0 -
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dathi1 wrote:Can anybody publish a list of Things That Don't Offend Islam?
Just so the rest of us can thread lightly:rolleyes:
What if a Muslim religious leader made a speech on the world stage referring to historical situations e.g.
1. The Crusades where Christian armies invaded, conquered then slaughtered all who would not convert to Cristianity?(Fact)
2. The Spanish inquisitions?
3. The world domination by Christians who invaded every continent and forcibly "civilized" their people by "converting"them to Christianity ( think South America, the Incas, Africa, the slaves etc etc etc.)
3.The holocaust against Jews by Christians. (To name but a few)
The Christians of this world would be up in arms, and the prevalent Western holocaust against the people of Islam would be intensified.
The leader of the Roman church has, I feel, deliberately provoked this outrage to fuel Anti-Muslim feeling in the Western world. In a vain hope to gain new recruits for his church who, by their own actions, are losing followers(and donations) with a rapidly dwindling priesthood and followers, while Islam (and Paganism) are statistically growing in strength and numbers. The Western world is brainwashed by media propaganda and biased programming into fearing the Islamic people and religion. We are witnessing a holocaust against the people of Islam, and the Pope knew exactly what he was saying and the effect it would produce. Why doesn't he just apologise? Peace be with you all.0 -
mysteria wrote:What if a Muslim religious leader made a speech on the world stage referring to historical situations e.g.
1. The Crusades where Christian armies invaded, conquered then slaughtered all who would not convert to Cristianity?(Fact)
2. The Spanish inquisitions?
3. The world domination by Christians who invaded every continent and forcibly "civilized" their people by "converting"them to Christianity ( think South America, the Incas, Africa, the slaves etc etc etc.)
3.The holocaust against Jews by Christians. (To name but a few)
The Christians of this world would be up in arms, and the prevalent Western holocaust against the people of Islam would be intensified.
The leader of the Roman church has, I feel, deliberately provoked this outrage to fuel Anti-Muslim feeling in the Western world. In a vain hope to gain new recruits for his church who, by their own actions, are losing followers(and donations) with a rapidly dwindling priesthood and followers, while Islam (and Paganism) are statistically growing in strength and numbers. The Western world is brainwashed by media propaganda and biased programming into fearing the Islamic people and religion. We are witnessing a holocaust against the people of Islam, and the Pope knew exactly what he was saying and the effect it would produce. Why doesn't he just apologise? Peace be with you all.
I agree with you 100% there mysteria.0 -
mysteria wrote:What if a Muslim religious leader made a speech on the world stage referring to historical situations e.g.
1. The Crusades where Christian armies invaded, conquered then slaughtered all who would not convert to Cristianity?(Fact)
2. The Spanish inquisitions?
3. The world domination by Christians who invaded every continent and forcibly "civilized" their people by "converting"them to Christianity ( think South America, the Incas, Africa, the slaves etc etc etc.)
3.The holocaust against Jews by Christians. (To name but a few)
The Christians of this world would be up in arms, and the prevalent Western holocaust against the people of Islam would be intensified.
To blame the catholic church for the holocaust shows a lack of understanding as to what happened, catholic churches where actively involved in getting Jews out of Germany and other occupied countries at the time.
But then if you think about it we’ve already had the pope compared to Hitler and other mass-murders (which to a catholic is a pretty big insult since he is meant to be Christ representative on earth), so if you look around at the protests against Islam by Catholics worldwide and the mosques getting burnt you can see the answer to your question.0 -
I did not blame the RC Church for the Holocaust, I pointed out that the Nazi attrocities were committed by Christians. There is a difference between Religious policies and the actions of it's followers but that applies to every religion. I feel the Ratzinger should show Christian qualities of humility and apologise. He's supposed to want peace in the world , is'nt he? Instead of stirring up inter-religious hatred with inflammatory comments.0
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the_new_mr wrote:A quick google later and had a quick read about the cartoon retracted after the appeal of the Christian league. I'm very happy about this.the_new_mr wrote:The description of the cartoon ridiculing Jesus (peace be upon him) is completley disgusting. I just don't know how or why people draw things like this. Even if someone is a complete athiest, surely it's just common courtesy not to do things like this.
By ridicule, atheists display the fact that these doctrines hold no power over them. Hence, in a sense, it is akin to an act of prayer and so rightly protected as a matter of freedom of conscience.
Before anyone pretends that disrespect is in some way unacceptable, let us recall that the Quran states that the Christian idea of God having a son is a ‘disaster’. Should Christians burn copies of the Quran, or symbolically cut the offending words from copies of the Quran as a protest? Should they continue such protests until they get an apology for this text, and the Quran is edited to remove the relevant words?
Profession of a faith, or of no faith, inevitably involves doing things that cut to the heart of the beliefs of others.mysteria wrote:We are witnessing a holocaust against the people of Islammysteria wrote:the Pope knew exactly what he was saying and the effect it would produce. Why doesn't he just apologise?0 -
What if a Muslim religious leader made a speech on the world stage referring to historical situations e.g.
I can say that without the sword Ireland today as a result of the fallout of the Roman Empire probably would not be Christian. I know a fatwah won’t be issued against me or anybody else for making such a statement.
I'm sick listening to so called moderates from monotheistic faiths making excuses for Islamic violence, Zionist violence and Christian neocon(Bush) violence. Its all one God in the end...get real.0 -
This thread is a getting out of hand. Back on topic or its getting locked or moved.0
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"I know a fatwah won’t be issued against me or anybody else for making such a statement.
I'm sick listening to so called moderates from monotheistic faiths making excuses for Islamic violence, Zionist violence and Christian neocon(Bush) violence. Its all one God in the end...get real.[/QUOTE]"
With respect daithi you're not the Pope, or a religious leader making inflammatory statements to the world media ( or are you? ). I'm not a moderate from a monotheistic faith, I honour the Pantheons of every religion because Spirituality transcends religion. Religion is elitist and divisive as we can see by the furore caused by Ratzsingers statement.0 -
mysteria wrote:With respect daithi you're not the Pope, or a religious leader making inflammatory statements to the world media ( or are you? ).
Lets tack this baby back on course and avoid the rocks of hobbes.
Firstly the remarks that where made by the pope where not made to media but rather to the group of peers.
Maybe you could quote for me the section of the lecture you feel the pope should apologise for, just so we have a frame of reference to the actual slight you feel was committed.0 -
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Hobbes wrote:Just remember the_new_mr is not on trial hereand those sort of questions are best left for the humanities forum.To answer it somewhat. People are allowed protest,why would anyone have a problem with it unless it wasn't peaceful or was intent on screwing up everyone else in some way.For example killing another person in Islam is considered one of the worst possible things you can do and I think gunning a nun in the back would pretty much guarantee a one way ticket to hell.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.271
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/059.sbt.html#005.059.369
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html#019.4436The actions of the minority does not reflect the religon as a whole.mysteria wrote:What if a Muslim religious leader made a speech on the world stage referring to historical situations e.g.1. The Crusades where Christian armies invaded, conquered then slaughtered all who would not convert to Cristianity?(Fact)2. The Spanish inquisitions?3. The world domination by Christians who invaded every continent and forcibly "civilized" their people by "converting"them to Christianity ( think South America, the Incas, Africa, the slaves etc etc etc.)3.The holocaust against Jews by Christians. (To name but a few)The Christians of this world would be up in arms,and the prevalent Western holocaust against the people of Islam would be intensified.The leader of the Roman church has, I feel, deliberately provoked this outrage to fuel Anti-Muslim feeling in the Western world.while Islam (and Paganism) are statistically growing in strength and numbers.The Western world is brainwashed by media propaganda and biased programming into fearing the Islamic people and religion.We are witnessing a holocaust against the people of Islam,and the Pope knew exactly what he was saying and the effect it would produce.Why doesn't he just apologise?I honour the Pantheons of every religion because Spirituality transcends religion.Peace be with you all.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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