Should the Pope apologise?

wes

Darragh29 wrote:

I couldn't agree with you more. I was very tolerant of Muslims and Islamic people until recently but I'm honestly starting to get a bit sick of the way any negative talk about their prophet and the whole world seems to be up in arms about it and people start running amok and smashing up cities. Sick to my face of it tbh, they demand respect for their prophet and rightly so as do Christians, but I have to say that when I look at nations like Saudi Arabia and Iran, in the case of Saudi Arabia they are still chopping people's heads off with swords in a town square in Riyadh in 2006, women have no rights whatsoever (can't drive, vote, drink, can't walk down a street with a male relative), whatever religion that is behind this, and from my best observations, it is religion that is behind it, is inhumane and evil.

Both those countries are run of Dictators, so I don't see how that is the fault of the average Iranian or Saudi person the street. Its the interpretation that the Whabbists (thats the particular brand of Islam the Saudi's espouse) which is quite frankly horrid.

As for the drink thing, men aren't alowed it either.

As for Iran, there President is a psycho who seems to have no regard for his own people.

scojones

The Muslims sense of humour and open mindedness is worse than the Germans. They need to lighten up.

Nuttzz

who is really surprised by this, what do they expect from a man who fired anti aircraft guns for hitler?

Wibbs

Darragh29 wrote:

I couldn't agree with you more. I was very tolerant of Muslims and Islamic people until recently but I'm honestly starting to get a bit sick of the way any negative talk about their prophet and the whole world seems to be up in arms about it and people start running amok and smashing up cities. Sick to my face of it tbh, they demand respect for their prophet and rightly so as do Christians

Sadly what is happening now is that people in the west are beginning to get a bit sick of it. The crying wolf at every perceived slight is getting real old too. The perception that they can give it and not take it is also growing. Also the idea of Islam meaning peace or the religion of tolerance and peace doesn't square with the aggressive posturing to every slight perceived or not (Then again "Islam" means submission). The calls for what appear to be special treatment are also wearing a bit thin.

Whatever sympathy that the cartoon row brought to the surface(and it was small) may evaporate with every one of these incidents. The problem is that ordinary Muslims who do brush this stuff off are going to take the heat for the sadly seemingly large bunch of loopers. These loopers need to be told to grow up in many ways and their largely quiet communities need to tell them that.

wes

The problem with the crazies is that they don't listen to anyone...

Frank Grimes

wes wrote:

The problem with the crazies is that they don't listen to anyone...

And they give the media better stories and visualisations than the vast majority of Muslims who aren't behaving like this.

wes

Frank Grimes wrote:

And they give the media better stories and visualisations than the vast majority of Muslims who aren't behaving like this.

The only way the rest of us could get on the news is to get an AK47 and shout "I don't think the pope meant offense.".

On a serious note, I want to ask a question to all those here, how would one go about tell the nutters to stop, now you have to remember some of these nutters have the aforementioned AK47's.

Blisterman

I find it ironic, that when a newspaper in the west publishes cartoons of Mohommed, all the nutters start rioting, and going crazy.
Then this happens, and they start burning effigies of the pope.

Seems, to fundeMENTAList Muslims, that free speech only applies when it's convenient to them.

toomevara

Blisterman wrote:

Seems, to fundeMENTAList Muslims, that free speech only applies when it's convenient to them.

A quality common to all forms of fascism (dont be under any illusions, that's just what 'islamism' is).

Sam Vimes

sjones wrote:

The Muslims sense of humour and open mindedness is worse than the Germans. They need to lighten up.

that's racist. there's nothing i hate more than a racist......and the dutch. damn pot smoking bike riders

scojones

Commander Vimes wrote:

that's racist. there's nothing i hate more than a racist......and the dutch. damn pot smoking bike riders

It's anything but racist.

el rabitos

muslims :rolleyes: declaring jihad on this, that and the other

darkman2

Maybe its time Muslims chilled out a bit. Stop being so touchy.

spudster101

Not that I care but Id say there are much more anit-christian preaches by some of there radical clerics.

Ruu_Old

darkman2 wrote:

Maybe its time Muslims chilled out a bit. Stop being so touchy.

Yep, "lads, will yiz ever chillax, ye?"

leeroybrown

I'm not too converned whether he does or not. As far as I'm concerned both sides shoulder equal blame in this situation.

faceman

The pope's speech was not printed in entirety and his remarks were spun by the media and misinterpreted by plenty.

Hes not a very inspiring pope, very backward in his views. but most religous leaders are.

should he apologise, yes but only for any misunderstanding and he should clarify what he meant in his apologies.

As for those muslims who burned images of the pope etc, they should apologise too.

exiztone

Rats from the flats would sort this out in a second.

Anyway, I'd love to see some statistics on this. That is, I wish they could survey Muslim communities in different countries to get an idea of how many were offended.

Oh, glad the pope effigy was mentioned. That actually is insulting and I'd imagine Catholics around the world should expect an apology from the Muslims for this... not from their spokesperson... but themselves.... ironic! :eek:

faceman

Space Coyote wrote:

If organised religion was banned the world would be a better place...in my opinion.

I hate it when people say things like this.
Organised religon has brough hope and self belief to billions of people. It has also spawned thousands of looneys who misinterpret the word of their god.

Watching horror/violent movies has caused people to cause harm to others. But we dont ban every non PG film that comes along.

Killaqueen!!!

smemon wrote:

it is. Religion gives people an identity. Identity seperates people. Seperation is where conflict occurs.

put it this way. i'm a utd supporter. my son will most likely be a utd supporter & his son and so on.

instanstly, we are hated and loathed by arsenal/liverpool fans, even though we are decent people. proving that identity causes instant hatred and who and what you belong will always be held against you.

If i met a muslim man on the street i'd spot him a mile off with a big mummy hat on and a towel around himself. Nowadays most people would say to themselves 'terrorist', and would be VERY cautious arond such people.

Whereas if the same guy walked down the street in casual jeans and a shirt with short black hair, nobody would pass any remarks.

Don't try and tell me religion is not the cause of war there are different clubs in religion, just like football. When you choose one, you're instantly hated by the others.

if we had no religion, no god, no churches.... the world would be a better, more peaceful place. I'm assuming of course God exists, as there is no proof he does exist yet people still fight over him :rolleyes:

A lot of people think it's cool these days to say that without religion the world would be peaceful and it would be all rainbows and butterflies. Not true. I am not a DEEPLY religious person but I am a Christian so I have to argue that religion is not as horrible as you think. But I won't get in to trying to convert you or whatever...

It is true that religion is often a factor in war. Not always, but often. It's a shame that it is. But you have to consider so much more than religion when thinking of war.

Ideology
Revenge
History
Land
Politics
Civil Rights
Wealth
Power
Strategic reasons
Economics

....etc.

So don't tell me that without religion the world would be peaceful

Sam Vimes

sjones wrote:

It's anything but racist.

i know. i was joking

fly_agaric

Nuttzz wrote:

who is really surprised by this, what do they expect from a man who fired anti aircraft guns for hitler?

Well, I suppose if he'd told them to f-off on account of a principled and courageous anti-Nazi stance (he was conscripted at the ripe old age of 16) he'd be dead now, wouldn't he?:rolleyes:

You on the other hand - I'm sure [at 16 no less!] you'd have given the Press Gang the two fingers and maybe accepted a bullet instead?

RandolphEsq

The Pope shouldnt have apologised. the muslims need to get laid more and get drunk. Theyre so uptight and hairy and dirty, maybe if they got more female attention they might clean themselves up a bit and not be so tight.
Also there was a funny picture in the Irish Times weekend review today on the front page. It has the Pope on one half of the pic and crazy posessed looking pakistani muslims on the other half whether that was the intention or not I dont know I havent read it yet

wes

BrightEyes wrote:

Theyre so uptight and hairy and dirty,

One of the things Muslims do is wash 5 times a day. So we are anything but dirty. Seriously calling people dirty, because a few are ass holes is a pretty nasty thing to say.

exiztone

wes wrote:

One of the things Muslims do is wash 5 times a day. So we are anything but dirty. Seriously calling people dirty, because a few are ass holes is a pretty nasty thing to say.

Seriously? How do you find the time?

wes

exiztone wrote:

Seriously? How do you find the time?

I am hardly a practicing Muslim and I tend to stick to 2 times a day personally, but the religous would wash 5 times a day.

Badly Drunk Boy

Wes, I understand that the pictures of Muslims we see on the telly aren't representative of the whole Muslim community, and some of the anti-Muslim comments in this thread are unfair, but fact is that if a Western figure like the Pope (or a Danish newspaper, say) says something anti-Muslim, the Islamic world is up in arms, but if it's the other way around, the Western world is quite accomodating to Islamic feelings.

Effigies of the Pope were burned over the last day or two. Imagine if effigies of Mohammed were burned after the World Trade Towers were destroyed. Not quite the same thing, but similar.

jimmycrackcorm

I am hardly a practicing Muslim and I tend to stick to 2 times a day personally, but the religous would wash 5 times a day

hmmm ... Eat fish on Fridays or wash five times a day. tough decision!

toomevara

Reckon we should all convert to Islam and hibernicise it. We'll bring in drink and general feckwallery and generally chill all the rest of 'em right the fcuk out......

We could also set up special McMosques or indeed O'Mosques if you will for this new departure, and once we've converted we'll ignore all the precepts of the religion as we do with catholicism and show the rest of our foam-flecked, mentalist co-reliogionists how to deal with a religion which, frankly, is as mad as a bag of ferrets, while pretending to adhere to it.......

Come on you know you want to...all together now...allahu akbar....

Snake Plisken

I see the Mussies have fire bombed 2 churches in the west bank, typical reaction from the nutters! And I'm also fed up of the one sided pro mussie coverage in the media (Sky news BBC etc). I hope the Guards keep a closer eye on the Muslem communities here as we don't want to end up like the UK situation.

Snake

Zillah

Click

Meanwhile, two more West Bank churches were set afire early Sunday as a wave of Muslim anger over Benedict's comments grew throughout the Palestinian areas.

In Tulkarm, a stone church built 170 years ago was torched before dawn and its entire inside was destroyed, local Christian officials said. In the village of Tubas, a small church was attacked with firebombs and partially burned, Christians said. Neither church is Catholic, the officials said.

Yeah that'll prove him wrong about Islam being evil. Torching harmless buildings.

I'm really really sick of morons. "Hey, that guy said something I don't like. It seems reasonable to burn down all those buildings!"

wes

Badly Drunk Boy wrote:

Wes, I understand that the pictures of Muslims we see on the telly aren't representative of the whole Muslim community, and some of the anti-Muslim comments in this thread are unfair, but fact is that if a Western figure like the Pope (or a Danish newspaper, say) says something anti-Muslim, the Islamic world is up in arms, but if it's the other way around, the Western world is quite accomodating to Islamic feelings.

Effigies of the Pope were burned over the last day or two. Imagine if effigies of Mohammed were burned after the World Trade Towers were destroyed. Not quite the same thing, but similar.

I am very angry at the idiots burning effigys of the pope. Its stupid and childish, but there is very little a lot of Muslims can do about it. Religous wackos are very dangerous and most Muslims are simply afraid to speak against them.

I also agree that the west is very accomadting and is a wonderful place to live and Muslims should respect that. There are massive problems all over the Muslim world. One day I hope that saner minds will prevail and stuff like this will stop or at the very least be reduced to a near non-existent group of idiots who everyone ignores.

wes

Snake Plisken wrote:

I see the Mussies have fire bombed 2 churches in the west bank, typical reaction from the nutters! And I'm also fed up of the one sided pro mussie coverage in the media (Sky news BBC etc). I hope the Guards keep a closer eye on the Muslem communities here as we don't want to end up like the UK situation.

Snake

The west bank isn't what we would call a stable area to be fair. I have to say the actions by these men are reprehensible and out and out stupid.

Laslo

Now an Italian nun has been murdered in Somalia.

Pope: "If you quote me out of context, you'll see that I could be construed as having said Islam is a violent, barbaric religion"
Muslim world: "HOW DARE YOU CALL MY RELIGION VIOLENT!! I'M GOING TO BOMB YOUR CHURCHES AND SLAUGHTER YOUR PEOPLE! AAAAAAAARGH!"

:rolleyes:

wes

Laslo wrote:

Now an Italian nun has been murdered in Somalia.

Pope: "If you quote me out of context, you'll see that I could be construed as having said Islam is a violent, barbaric religion"
Muslim world: "HOW DARE YOU CALL MY RELIGION VIOLENT!! I'M GOING TO BOMB YOUR CHURCHES AND SLAUGHTER YOUR PEOPLE! AAAAAAAARGH!"

:rolleyes:

I am in full agreement here. These people sicken me.

exiztone

Yeah, this is seriously ironic. Haven't they proved the Pope's quote correct. No need to apologise anymore.

Laslo

exiztone wrote:

Yeah, this is seriously ironic. Haven't they proved the Pope's quote correct. No need to apologise anymore.

All part of the hypocracies of the Islamic world. You accuse them of perhaps being a bit reactionary and violent and they react with extreme anger and violence. You stop them wearing their religious headscarves in schools and they go apesh*t and yet if one was to practice Christianity in Saudi Arabia, you can be sure of a frosty reception (see being jailed, tortured and possibly beheaded). The Pope (sort of) calls Islam violent and Muslims are enraged and yet Muslims the world over protest every day screaming death to the West/death to America. A Danish cartoon satirising Mohammed is published and the whole of Denmark and Europe feel the demonic bile of the Muslim faith yet Iran commissions cartoons to satirise Christians and not a single Christian takes to the street to protest - never mind calling for the beheading of Muslims, large scale riots and the boycotting of Middle Eastern products.

Go to hell, you vicious, evil hypocrites.

Frank Grimes

Laslo wrote:

All part of the hypocracies of the Islamic world. You accuse them of perhaps being a bit reactionary and violent and they react with extreme anger and violence.

The "Islamic world" is not reacting with violence, an extreme minority are doing this. While you're tarring everyone with the same brush maybe you should take into account that there are 1.2+ billion Muslims in the world.

juslookin

Frank Grimes wrote:

The "Islamic world" is not reacting with violence, an extreme minority are doing this. While you're tarring everyone with the same brush maybe you should take into account that there are 1.2+ billion Muslims in the world.

Yes, this "extreme minority", it's just a few nutters, isn't it ? Like the "extreme minority" of nutters in the UK.

You see, as we speak, the vast majority are protesting against the extreme minority on the streets of London, Leicester, Bradford ...

Yep, the vast majority disown this "extreme minority", disagree with them, openly and loudly condemn them, have absolutely nothing to gain from their actions, don't tacitly support them, don't quiety benefit from the fruits of the actions of the "extreme minority".

As they are an "extreme minority", what we will find is, that like polls published showing a significant proportion of "British Muslims" agreeing with the 7/7 atrocity, agreeing with Islamic terrorism, and Honor Killings, and Sharia Law being introduced in the UK ...

any polls published in the press in the future will show that, ooh 32% of the vast majority agreeing with the Pope effigy burners, well it's all lies by the islamophobic, Jewish controlled media ...

The "majority" have nothing to gain by the actions of the "extreme minority". That's why they are so vocal in their condemnation, like for example the numerous and regular demonstrations by the vast majority of "British Muslims" against that "extreme minority".

But let's get back in the real world;

August 10th 2006 - An "extreme minority" of 20 odd "British Muslims" arrested over an alleged plot to blow up airliners. Just the latest worrying plot foiled ...

August 12th 2006 - An open letter on behalf of the vast majority of "British Muslims", signed by 3 "British Muslim" MPs, 3 "British Muslim" Peers and 38 Muslim organisations including, the Muslim Council of Britain, The Muslim Parliament, Da’watul Islam UK & Eire, Muslim Students Society UK & Eire, Northern Ireland Muslim Family Association .... telling us, that they don't support Muslim terrorism, but if Britain simply gives them what they want, and does what they want, and gives in to their wishes, then everythign will be hunky dory.

August 23rd 2006. Secretary General of the Union of Muslim Organisations of the UK and Ireland, an umbrella organisation, meets with the British government. Extremism will be tackled he suggests, by introducing National Holidays to mark Muslim festivals and to introduced Sharia laws.

Yes, that is the Union of Muslim Organisations of the UK and Ireland. Arguably what he wants in the UK, he wants in Ireland. Remember, as we are constantly told by many "moderates", they "don't recognise countries, only Allah".

You see, the "vast majority" are not like the "extreme minority".

It's just, well they just want the same things.

So while they claim to be different from the "extreme minority", if they get what they want due to the actions of the "extreme minority", well ...



Britain has regularly painted a picture of what awaits the Celtic Tiger. Modern day Irish society withstood the British and The Catholic Church. Contrasting the past struggles with the Catholic Church, watching it is pandering to Islam, the phrase Turkeys and Christmas comes to mind.

Frank Grimes

What's your point juslookin? A few Muslims do something bad therefore all are somehow responsible? What control do Muslims in say Senegal have over what Muslims in India do? It is a minority who are doing all this, other Muslims do speak out against it. Why do you think that people marching around the place would stop a bunch of fanatics doing what they do?

justlookin wrote:

August 10th 2006 - An "extreme minority" of 20 odd "British Muslims" arrested over an alleged plot to blow up airliners. Just the latest worrying plot foiled ...

There's about 1.6 million Muslims in Britain, so yeah I'd say it's an extreme miniority.

juslookin

Frank Grimes wrote:

What's your point juslookin? A few Muslims do something bad therefore all are somehow responsible? What control do Muslims in say Senegal have over what Muslims in India do? It is a minority who are doing all this, other Muslims do speak out against it. Why do you think that people marching around the place would stop a bunch of fanatics doing what they do?

The point is clear. I suggest you read the post again as you have such difficulting in interpreting what is clearly pointed out.

Some people claim that an "extreme minority" do not speak for them.

Yet those same some people actually share the views of the extreme minority, do not condemn them, and later come to enjoy the fruits of their extreme behavior. Although they don't get involved in the activity, they tacityly approve and benefit from it.

Please point me to where I can find "British Muslims" speaking out against the burning of Pope effigies, the murder of the Italian nun et al.

philologos

smemon wrote:

well said my catholic friend

religion is the cause of war, not the solution to it. God is ultimately the cause of all major wars so we should fight our deep urges to go to mass, pray, draw muslim cartoons etc...

and instead stay at home in bed for an extra hour on a sunday morning - not only would we benefit from extra sleep and resulting higher energy levels, we would also be doing it for the good of mankind.

analyse that

People use religion as a Casus Belli to go to war. It's not actually the reason for the war in most cases.

juslookin

Frank Grimes wrote:

There's about 1.6 million Muslims in Britain, so yeah I'd say it's an extreme miniority.

This is correct. The 20 or so allegded plotters in this particular incident are an extreme minority.

The 38 organisations, three MPs and three Peers represent a significant majority.

So when this significant majority, rather than condemn the extreme minority, but openly call on the British governement to change democratic matters to suit the beliefs of the "extreme minority", this is a matter of great concern.

Frank Grimes

juslookin wrote:

The point is clear. I suggest you read the post again as you have such difficulting in interpreting what is clearly pointed out.

Charming

Some people claim that an "extreme minority" do not speak for them.

Yet those same some people actually share the views of the extreme minority, do not condemn them, and later come to enjoy the fruits of their extreme behavior. Although they don't get involved in the activity, they tacityly approve and benefit from it.

So you're saying all Muslims are terrorists then?

Please point me to where I can find "British Muslims" speaking out against the burning of Pope effigies, the murder of the Italian nun et al.

Considering those events have just occured I'm sure it's not going to be easy to find stuff online. Even if there was I'm pretty sure you'd only dismiss it anyway given the tone of your posts.

juslookin

Frank Grimes wrote:

So you're saying all Muslims are terrorists then?.

No.

I clearly don't say that.

Why don't you try reading the post again.

If you want to debate. Stick to what's being debated, stick to the facts, rather than invention.

Frank Grimes

juslookin wrote:

No.

I clearly don't say that.

Why don't you try reading the post again.

If you want to debate. Stick to what's being debated, stick to the facts, rather than invention.

The reason I said I don't get your point is because you responded to a post I made about a minority in the Islamic world committing violence. Your response seems to be a diatribe against Muslims in Britain.
Even if all/some/most Muslims in Britain were terrorists/terrorist sympathisers, it's still a drop in ocean given the number of Muslims in the world.

juslookin

Frank Grimes wrote:

The reason I said I don't get your point is because you responded to a post I made about a minority in the Islamic world committing violence. Your response seems to be a diatribe against Muslims in Britain.
Even if all/some/most Muslims in Britain were terrorists/terrorist sympathisers, it's still a drop in ocean given the number of Muslims in the world.

No, my response is not a diatrabe against Muslims in Britain.

My response is to examine the premise, constantly trotted out, about this "extreme minority".

That as it is only an "extreme minority" we should dismiss these activities.

That we should immediately assume that this "extreme minority" does not represent any section of the majority.

That we should assume that the majority do not agree with this "extreme minority", and condemen them. Even when we do not actually hear any argument of condenmation from the majority.

The assumptions are a problem.

Forget the assumptions. When we examine the issue, it's not just not as clear cut, its actually very worrying.

Respected, independent polls, show a shockingly large percentage of "British Muslims" agree with 7/7 and the actions of the bombers (31%), introduction of Sharia Law in Britain (40%), honor killings (minimum of 10%)

That is not a diatrabe. It's just a fact.

To bland, happy clappy assumptions about the relationship between the "extreme minority" and the "vast majority", is folly.

Frank Grimes

juslookin wrote:

My response is to examine the premise, constantly trotted out, about this "extreme minority". That as it is only an "extreme minority" we should dismiss these activities. That we should immediately assume that this "extreme minority" does not represent any section of the majority.

The problem is, when we examine the issue, it's not just not as clear cut, its actually very worrying.

Respected, independent polls, show a shockingly large percentage of "British Muslims" agree with 7/7 and the actions of the bombers (31%), introduction of Sharia Law in Britain (40%), honor killings (minimum of 10%)

Are you assuming that the attitudes of those people surveyed in the UK are applicable to all Muslims everywhere?
That survey (link) also found that 41% of Muslims interviewed do not share that view about Sharia law being introduced. Regardless of what people want, what they get is a different thing.
I haven't seen anything about "honour killings" in relation to that survey but (as I'm sure you're aware) they have nothing to do with Islam as a religion, it happens in Hindu and Sikh communties too, amongst others.

That we should assume that the majority do not agree with this "extreme minority", and condemen them. Even when we do not actually hear any argument of condenmation from the majority.

There is plenty of condemnation, if people choose not to listen that's another thing.

juslookin

Frank Grimes wrote:

Are you assuming that the attitudes of those people surveyed in the UK are applicable to all Muslims everywhere?
That survey (link) also found that 41% of Muslims interviewed do not share that view about Sharia law being introduced. Regardless of what people want, what they get is a different thing.
I haven't seen anything about "honour killings" in relation to that survey but (as I'm sure you're aware) they have nothing to do with Islam as a religion, it happens in Hindu and Sikh communties too, amongst others.

There is plenty of condemnation, if people choose not to listen that's another thing.

No, I'm not assuming anything.

Unlike your good self who has attempted to twist and misrepresent virtually every single post on this thread ( ... "so you are saying all muslims are terrorists" ... PURLEASE ...)

You stick with your ASSUMPTIONS about the "extreme minority".

And I'll continue to monitor the FACTUAL, ACTUAL relationship between this "extreme minority" and the "vast majority". Because in modern day Britain, they are having an increasing influence in our lives and freedoms.

Youre right about what people want, and what people get. Because an "extreme minority" are in present day Britain succeeding in getting a variety of things for the "vast majority", who quite frankly, haven't complained.

Funny that.

Frank Grimes

juslookin wrote:

Because an "extreme minority" are in present day Britain succeeding in getting a variety of things for the "vast majority", who quite frankly, haven't complained.

Such as what exactly?
You still haven't explained what this has to do with the worldwide Muslim population either.