Should the Pope apologise?

juslookin

Frank Grimes wrote:

What's your point juslookin? A few Muslims do something bad therefore all are somehow responsible? What control do Muslims in say Senegal have over what Muslims in India do? It is a minority who are doing all this, other Muslims do speak out against it. Why do you think that people marching around the place would stop a bunch of fanatics doing what they do?

The point is clear. I suggest you read the post again as you have such difficulting in interpreting what is clearly pointed out.

Some people claim that an "extreme minority" do not speak for them.

Yet those same some people actually share the views of the extreme minority, do not condemn them, and later come to enjoy the fruits of their extreme behavior. Although they don't get involved in the activity, they tacityly approve and benefit from it.

Please point me to where I can find "British Muslims" speaking out against the burning of Pope effigies, the murder of the Italian nun et al.

philologos

smemon wrote:

well said my catholic friend

religion is the cause of war, not the solution to it. God is ultimately the cause of all major wars so we should fight our deep urges to go to mass, pray, draw muslim cartoons etc...

and instead stay at home in bed for an extra hour on a sunday morning - not only would we benefit from extra sleep and resulting higher energy levels, we would also be doing it for the good of mankind.

analyse that

People use religion as a Casus Belli to go to war. It's not actually the reason for the war in most cases.

juslookin

Frank Grimes wrote:

There's about 1.6 million Muslims in Britain, so yeah I'd say it's an extreme miniority.

This is correct. The 20 or so allegded plotters in this particular incident are an extreme minority.

The 38 organisations, three MPs and three Peers represent a significant majority.

So when this significant majority, rather than condemn the extreme minority, but openly call on the British governement to change democratic matters to suit the beliefs of the "extreme minority", this is a matter of great concern.

Frank Grimes

juslookin wrote:

The point is clear. I suggest you read the post again as you have such difficulting in interpreting what is clearly pointed out.

Charming

Some people claim that an "extreme minority" do not speak for them.

Yet those same some people actually share the views of the extreme minority, do not condemn them, and later come to enjoy the fruits of their extreme behavior. Although they don't get involved in the activity, they tacityly approve and benefit from it.

So you're saying all Muslims are terrorists then?

Please point me to where I can find "British Muslims" speaking out against the burning of Pope effigies, the murder of the Italian nun et al.

Considering those events have just occured I'm sure it's not going to be easy to find stuff online. Even if there was I'm pretty sure you'd only dismiss it anyway given the tone of your posts.

juslookin

Frank Grimes wrote:

So you're saying all Muslims are terrorists then?.

No.

I clearly don't say that.

Why don't you try reading the post again.

If you want to debate. Stick to what's being debated, stick to the facts, rather than invention.

Frank Grimes

juslookin wrote:

No.

I clearly don't say that.

Why don't you try reading the post again.

If you want to debate. Stick to what's being debated, stick to the facts, rather than invention.

The reason I said I don't get your point is because you responded to a post I made about a minority in the Islamic world committing violence. Your response seems to be a diatribe against Muslims in Britain.
Even if all/some/most Muslims in Britain were terrorists/terrorist sympathisers, it's still a drop in ocean given the number of Muslims in the world.

juslookin

Frank Grimes wrote:

The reason I said I don't get your point is because you responded to a post I made about a minority in the Islamic world committing violence. Your response seems to be a diatribe against Muslims in Britain.
Even if all/some/most Muslims in Britain were terrorists/terrorist sympathisers, it's still a drop in ocean given the number of Muslims in the world.

No, my response is not a diatrabe against Muslims in Britain.

My response is to examine the premise, constantly trotted out, about this "extreme minority".

That as it is only an "extreme minority" we should dismiss these activities.

That we should immediately assume that this "extreme minority" does not represent any section of the majority.

That we should assume that the majority do not agree with this "extreme minority", and condemen them. Even when we do not actually hear any argument of condenmation from the majority.

The assumptions are a problem.

Forget the assumptions. When we examine the issue, it's not just not as clear cut, its actually very worrying.

Respected, independent polls, show a shockingly large percentage of "British Muslims" agree with 7/7 and the actions of the bombers (31%), introduction of Sharia Law in Britain (40%), honor killings (minimum of 10%)

That is not a diatrabe. It's just a fact.

To bland, happy clappy assumptions about the relationship between the "extreme minority" and the "vast majority", is folly.

Frank Grimes

juslookin wrote:

My response is to examine the premise, constantly trotted out, about this "extreme minority". That as it is only an "extreme minority" we should dismiss these activities. That we should immediately assume that this "extreme minority" does not represent any section of the majority.

The problem is, when we examine the issue, it's not just not as clear cut, its actually very worrying.

Respected, independent polls, show a shockingly large percentage of "British Muslims" agree with 7/7 and the actions of the bombers (31%), introduction of Sharia Law in Britain (40%), honor killings (minimum of 10%)

Are you assuming that the attitudes of those people surveyed in the UK are applicable to all Muslims everywhere?
That survey (link) also found that 41% of Muslims interviewed do not share that view about Sharia law being introduced. Regardless of what people want, what they get is a different thing.
I haven't seen anything about "honour killings" in relation to that survey but (as I'm sure you're aware) they have nothing to do with Islam as a religion, it happens in Hindu and Sikh communties too, amongst others.

That we should assume that the majority do not agree with this "extreme minority", and condemen them. Even when we do not actually hear any argument of condenmation from the majority.

There is plenty of condemnation, if people choose not to listen that's another thing.

juslookin

Frank Grimes wrote:

Are you assuming that the attitudes of those people surveyed in the UK are applicable to all Muslims everywhere?
That survey (link) also found that 41% of Muslims interviewed do not share that view about Sharia law being introduced. Regardless of what people want, what they get is a different thing.
I haven't seen anything about "honour killings" in relation to that survey but (as I'm sure you're aware) they have nothing to do with Islam as a religion, it happens in Hindu and Sikh communties too, amongst others.

There is plenty of condemnation, if people choose not to listen that's another thing.

No, I'm not assuming anything.

Unlike your good self who has attempted to twist and misrepresent virtually every single post on this thread ( ... "so you are saying all muslims are terrorists" ... PURLEASE ...)

You stick with your ASSUMPTIONS about the "extreme minority".

And I'll continue to monitor the FACTUAL, ACTUAL relationship between this "extreme minority" and the "vast majority". Because in modern day Britain, they are having an increasing influence in our lives and freedoms.

Youre right about what people want, and what people get. Because an "extreme minority" are in present day Britain succeeding in getting a variety of things for the "vast majority", who quite frankly, haven't complained.

Funny that.

Frank Grimes

juslookin wrote:

Because an "extreme minority" are in present day Britain succeeding in getting a variety of things for the "vast majority", who quite frankly, haven't complained.

Such as what exactly?
You still haven't explained what this has to do with the worldwide Muslim population either.

Frank Grimes

juslookin wrote:

No, I'm not assuming anything.

Unlike your good self who has attempted to twist and misrepresent virtually every single post on this thread ( ... "so you are saying all muslims are terrorists" ... PURLEASE ...)

My mistake, what I should have said what that you're accusing some (and seemingly implying, most) of the Muslims in Britain of being terrorist sympathisers.

You wrote:

Some people claim that an "extreme minority" do not speak for them.

Yet those same some people actually share the views of the extreme minority, do not condemn them, and later come to enjoy the fruits of their extreme behavior. Although they don't get involved in the activity, they tacityly approve and benefit from it.

juslookin

Frank Grimes wrote:

My mistake, what I should have said what that you're accusing some (and seemingly implying, most) of the Muslims in Britain of being terrorist sympathisers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by You
Some people claim that an "extreme minority" do not speak for them.

Yet those same some people actually share the views of the extreme minority, do not condemn them, and later come to enjoy the fruits of their extreme behavior. Although they don't get involved in the activity, they tacityly approve and benefit from it.

Frank, can you actually read ? Can you distingush between what is in front of you, and how you wildly incorrectly interpret it based upon your prejudices of those who don't agree with you ?

I mean really ?

No, I did NOT "accuse some (and seemingly imply, most) of the Muslims in Britain of being terrorist sympathisers".

I did nothing of the sort.

I questioned the topic of why it is assumed that the "extreme minority" have no connection with the "vast majority" ...

... when it has been seen in specific instances that the a majority have not only been significant in their lack of condenmnation, but have been seen to attempt to capitalise, benefit and enjoy the fruits of the actions of this "extreme minority".

I illustrated this with the frankly gobsmacking actions of a majority who following terrorism arrests in the UK on 10th August 2006, rather than condemn and assist the state, suggested the solution to the problem was an undemocratic change of Government policy and the introduction of Sharia law in Britain.

That's a pretty clear example.

You are the one with the obsession in linking Islam and terrorism.

In this current instance, "the extreme minority" are engaged in the flag burning, effigy burning, building burning, violence threatening and random religiously motivated murders that we see from followers of the "Religion Of Peace" TM, from London to Lahore.

Stop making things up, because you are just making yourself look stupid.

If you want to play that silly game, instead of blatantly and clearly twisting, misrepresenting what I've written, why not just scream "WAYSISSUM" in a student grant type acccent. It would serve the same purpose and save you a lot of typing.

Snake Plisken

Well put point of view Juslookin, I also never see any of these Muslim so called Good majority ratting out the minority in Britain or elsewhere in the World, and don't tell me the so called good Muslims have no idea about whats going on? Rather then intelligent debate by Muslims on this topic (Which I think the Pope wanted to start), what do we get from Muslinms? Burning scarecrows with the Popes head on it, Burning of churches and the murder of a Nun to start! Just watching Sky News and see the Muslims protesting and calling the Pope (and Catholics) as part of the unholy trinity with Bush and Israel. I would certainly also have grave doubts about leaving Turkey into the EU based on what we've seen so far in this decade. As I stated before the Cops would really need to keep a very close eye on the Muslims here in Ireland or else one of the next attacks on the US or Britain could come from these shores.

Snake

Laslo

Any Muslim who wants to live under Sharia law should move to Saudi Arabia or any other country that espouses it; not stay around here trying to change our societies into demonic, evil, inhuman backwaters. Basically the best thing for Muslims in this country to do is to adopt our way of life or leave. By all means feel free to practice your religion but when Islam conflicts with the laws of this country, then the laws of this country overrule your religion. We've spent enough time under the oppresive regimen of the Catholic Church. We don't need another more vicious and psychotic institution such as evil Sharia to poison our society.

Frank Grimes

juslookin wrote:

I questioned the topic of why it is assumed that the "extreme minority" have no connection with the "vast majority" ...

... when it has been seen in specific instances that the a majority have not only been significant in their lack of condenmnation, but have been seen to attempt to capitalise, benefit and enjoy the fruits of the actions of this "extreme minority".

juslookin wrote:

In this current instance, "the extreme minority" are engaged in the flag burning, effigy burning, building burning, violence threatening and random religiously motivated murders that we see from followers of the "Religion Of Peace" TM, from London to Lahore.

How you can say you are not linking all Muslims to the actions of a few after you've clearly posted it is beyond me. You are assuming/saying the majority are passively supporting terrorism/violent behaviour (by not condemning it) and outrightly trying to capitalise on it.
Yet again you haven't bothered explaining what your post has to do with my initial post either, unless you are saying that Muslims internationally think in exactly the same way as those in the UK.
Calling me names isn't going clarify what you're trying to say either.

Frank Grimes

Snake Plisken wrote:

I also never see any of these Muslim so called Good majority ratting out the minority in Britain or elsewhere in the World

Here's one:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/08/11/terror.plot1010/index.html?section=cnn_latest

juslookin

Please stop making things up in your head. I can't be arsed arguing with your fictious interpretations of my statements any more. You are showing yourself up.

I certainly did make a connection between your "extreme minority" of Muslims and other muslims.

That connection is that some Muslims who are not an active part of the "extreme minority", nevertheless condone their behavior, endorse their behavior, support their behavior, benefit from their behavior and enjoy the fruits of their behavior.

That is an inescapable fact.

The fact that 3 "British Muslim" MPs, 3 "British Muslim" Peers and 38 British and Irish Muslim organisations sought to profit and benefit from the activity of 20 odd suspected / alleged Muslim terrorists, is shocking, sickening opportunism.

The fact that they used this event to further their long held agenda for having Sharia law incorporated into the British statute (and presumably Irish statute for that matter) is disgraceful, sickening opportunism.

This was in no way the the first time this sickening opportunism occoured, it's being going on for ages, especially since 9/11, but what was significant about Augusts developments was that it was the highest profile to date.

While some who claim to be "moderates" claim not to support "extremist activity", they nevertheless seek to profit and benefit from it.

Be it "cartoon protests", "hijab protests", "miss world protests", "political extremism", "violent extremism", "inner city riots", "terrorism"

some Muslims, some "British Muslims", claim it has nothing to do with them, yet they do not refuse the advantages, opportunities, benefits and fruits that these events have provided to them

And some Muslims, some "British Muslims", claim it has nothing to do with them, while simeltanously attempting to exploit the situation for their own ends.

And some even act with sickening opportunism.

There is a direct link between the "extreme minority" and some who claim to be "moderates".

Some would call it "getting others to do your dirty work".

Hijab protests in France mean urgent meetings in Britain. Terrorism in the US means extra funding for projects. Riots in Pakistan means the BBC must expend resources educating the British public.

Oooh look at those "extreme minority" in Pakistan, in Turkey, in Nigeria, in Paris, in London. We are the "moderate majority" and don't want that to happen here. Let us help you, we will explain to you what their demands are. Then, if you can give it to us you will prevent the same things happening here ....

In ten year's time, I think I'll probably ironically laugh at the efforts the Irish went to rid themselves of the Catholic church, the referendums, the public debates on abortion and divorce, the efforts to become touchy feely multicultural, when through the back door and on the basis of being "right on", they allow a lot worse ... of course you are still in a position to resist the mistakes Britain has made.

Laslo

Frank Grimes wrote:

How you can say you are not linking all Muslims to the actions of a few after you've clearly posted it is beyond me. You are assuming/saying the majority are passively supporting terrorism/violent behaviour (by not condemning it) and outrightly trying to capitalise on it.

I would say that they are. I think they've pretty much proven this globally over the last few decades.

Frank Grimes

juslookin wrote:

Please stop making things up in your head. I can't be arsed arguing with your fictious interpretations of my statements any more. You are showing yourself up.

Amazingly, you then go on to agree with what I said in my post!

That connection is that some Muslims who are not an active part of the "extreme minority", nevertheless condone their behavior, endorse their behavior, support their behavior, benefit from their behavior and enjoy the fruits of their behavior.

You still haven't shown any proof that the majority of Muslims anywhere in world, let alone the UK, actually endorse the behaviour of the violent minority. Making allusions to it hardly counts as evidence it's just scaremongering.
How have the majority of Muslims actually benefited from the behaviour of the minority in the UK?

The fact that 3 "British Muslim" MPs, 3 "British Muslim" Peers and 38 British and Irish Muslim organisations sought to profit and benefit from the activity of 20 odd suspected Muslim terrorists, is shocking, sickening opportunism.

From the article I linked to earlier:

British Muslim leaders meeting with government representatives to discuss ways of combating extremism are calling for the establishment of Islamic law (shari'a) to govern Muslims' family life.

"We told her if you give us religious rights, we will be in a better position to convince [Muslim] young people that they are being treated equally along with other citizens," said Syed Aziz Pasha, secretary general of the Union of Muslim Organizations of the U.K. and Ireland.

Pasha was among some 30 Muslim leaders, described as moderates, who met with Ruth Kelly, the minister responsible for communities, amid raging debate in the country over what to do about the terror threat.

That is one suggestion the groups made in a debate about what to do over the terrorist threat in the UK, it's hardly profiting and benefiting from a terrorist plot.

Frank Grimes

Laslo wrote:

I would say that they are. I think they've pretty much proven this globally over the last few decades.

How exactly? Without resorting to generalisations.

Laslo

Frank Grimes wrote:

How exactly? Without resorting to generalisations.

Um, first of all this is my post. I will resort to generalisations, sweeping statements and blanket rhetoric as much as I want and there's nothing you can do about it. I would recommend that you use your ridiculous forum bullying tactics on someone else.

I won't repeat what juslookin has said. Just read his thread as his argument is pretty much inline with mine. However, I would be quite interested in your opinions on other matters.

Matters such as the dignified reaction of Western socities when there are daily protests (riots) all over the Middle East calling for 'death to the West' (that's you and me) in Pakistan, Palestine, Yemen, Egypt, etc. Yet any opportunity Muslims get to express their outrage due to a knock to their sesitivities, it's perfectly acceptable to call for bloody murder (and indeed, to commit murder and other crimes).

What is your opinion on the large call for an introduction of Sharia law in Britain? Do you agree with capital punishment? Do you agree that people should be mutilated and that religion should dictate law?

What is your opinion on the fact that Christians are tortured and killed in Saudi Arabia and other backward s**thole countries for practicing their religion... while Muslims are free to practice their religion freely here?

Do you have any opinions on the amount of violence espoused and carried out by Muslims? Do you have any opinion on the hypocracies of Islamic socities? Do you have an opinion on the recent history of violence aimed at the West? And I'm not talking America here... there are far more undeserving examples.

Do you have an opinion that will result in a solution or are you just standing left because it makes you feel like a big man?

Frank Grimes

Laslo wrote:

I would recommend that you use your ridiculous forum bullying tactics on someone else.

It's not "bullying tactics", you're making sweeping statements accusing most Muslims everywhere of supporting violence. That's a pretty serious accusation to make and one that should be backed up with specifics rather than vague generalisations.
If you actually believe this to be true, and you appear to from what you're posting, then there is no point in discussing it.

Do you have an opinion that will result in a solution or are you just standing left because it makes you feel like a big man?

I don't have the solutions to any of this, as I doubt anyone else here does. I just don't see that tarring all Muslims everywhere with the same brush is either fair or justified. It has nothing to with "standing on the left", whatever that's supposed to be implying.
I don't agree with or support the actions of extremists of any variety. I just don't see what blaming the entire community they belong to can possibly achieve.

Laslo

I wouldn't want to tar all Muslims with the same brush. I'm of the opinion that a disproportionate and sizeable number are either terrorists or terrorist sympathisers. A minority? Probably... but an enormous one.

juslookin

So, should the Pope apologise ?

Well, the general rule is when Islam and any unbelievers intersect, be it a "Cartoon Riot" or a "Hijab Protest" or beautiful peaceful beloved ordinary everyday people with families just getting on with daily lives who happened to murdered by ****ing stone age sub human savage, the message from Islam and Muslims is nearly always the on the same theme.

"You must understand Islam"

"You must learn more about Islam".

"You must not do this"

"You must do that".

"You must understand that according to Islam they were at fault".

Never any mention of "compromise" or "discussion" or "seeing both sides".

Nope, its very simple. You change. You compromise. You give in. Not us.


You see, when those 1500 year old Bhuddist statues were blown up in Afghanistan, or those hundreds of churches and Christian buildings vandalised and demolished in Kosovo/Nigera/Pakistan, and the thousands of Christians killed in Nigera, often during actual masses in Pakistan and India, or those Hindus temples that were demolished in Indonesia (six this year), or those Jewish synagouges vandalised and desecrated the world over, these people were offending Islam by their very being.

The Pope, you and I, need to understand this.

Non Muslims must always apologise.

Sam Vimes

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

A lot of people think it's cool these days to say that without religion the world would be peaceful and it would be all rainbows and butterflies. Not true. I am not a DEEPLY religious person but I am a Christian so I have to argue that religion is not as horrible as you think. But I won't get in to trying to convert you or whatever...

It is true that religion is often a factor in war. Not always, but often. It's a shame that it is. But you have to consider so much more than religion when thinking of war.

Ideology
Revenge
History
Land
Politics
Civil Rights
Wealth
Power
Strategic reasons
Economics

....etc.

So don't tell me that without religion the world would be peaceful

i think the cause of wars can be boiled down to pride. whether it be national pride or religious pride or racial pride or whatever.

prideful people believe they're better than everyone who is not like them and they'll kill to prove it because people who aren't like them are of lesser value

people talk about pride as if its a good thing. they forget its one of the 7 deadly sins. jesus* preached humility. humble people don't kill each other in a massive penis measuring contest

*i don't actually believe he was the son of a big beard in the sky but he had some good ideas

Zillah

Commander Vimes wrote:

i think the cause of wars can be boiled down to pride.

The causes of war can, like most things, be boiled down to evolution. Kill the other guy and your family takes over.

Hobbes

Laslo wrote:

Any Muslim who wants to live under Sharia law should move to Saudi Arabia or any other country that espouses it

You mean like England? Muslims can live under Sharia law in the UK quite fine and do so.

Prehaps you didn't know that Sharia law can be run in any countries that do not have it as thier main law, providing it doesn't superceed the law of the land.

That's why the UK has Sharia lawyers (trained in British law).

No one is trying to change anything about "your way of life" but you don't seem to have any problem about being intolerant to other peoples. Oh the Irony.

We don't need another more vicious and psychotic institution such as evil Sharia to poison our society.

I recommend that rather reading tabloids you actually go read up on what it is you are actually complaining about. Just from this post its clear you have no clue about it at all.

cournioni

Wow... Muslims outraged! Now there's something new!

So say if it was a Muslim leader, that said the same about Christianity... Would Christians be baying for blood?!

I know that it isn't the point of the topic but clearly it should be discussed.

Hobbes

PORNAPSTER wrote:

So say if it was a Muslim leader, that said the same about Christianity... Would Christians be baying for blood?!

Well for one there is no "Leader" as such. They don't have the same thing as a Pope. Secondly Jesus is actually respected in the muslim faith (although they don't believe he is the son of god).

As for Christians baying for blood...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,214059,00.html
(yea its foxnews but you can look for the paper in question)

Archeron

I have the utmost respect for all of the worlds religions and peoples. However, the burning of churches, the burning of papal effigies and the shooting of the church's people is extremely offensive to me. Does anyone give a damn about that??
This has got to start working both ways. If the Muslim world wants to have respect from the west, it has to start showing it, as I, like many posters above, am beginning to tire of this rampaging, pillaging and burning everytime their is a slight against Islam, be that in something that is said, something that is printed, or something that is only perceived by a tiny minority.

Its funny, all the people talking about how we get our facts from the star or the sun tabloids and how small minded that is. For the thousands of people who are burning icons of MY faith all around the globe, where did they get their information? Did they research the popes statement and come to an informed conclusion about what he meant? No. The majority (of the protesters) heard it mentioned that this had been said, and just ran straight for the emergency riot kit. Whip out a papal flag and a lighter, and bobs your uncle, we have a new Great Evil to focus our destructive thoughts on.

Can I expect an apology for the huge offense these people have caused to me over the past few days?????? Somehow I doubt it.

For those many muslims who do not condone pointless savagery, I apologize if the above remarks come across as inflammatory, but constant reports of anger, burnings, bombings and death threats which are never countered in our mainstream media by more moderate muslim opinions are becoming tiresome and worrying. Yes, I repect you and your faith, I only wish more of you would respect mine.