Beckhams' dissapointment to be shortlived?

Giruilla

~Rebel~ wrote:

I dont really know what you're saying here. You first said ANYONE (eg fletcher) in his position would create way more. Given the stats on the others in the team not creating anywhere near as much bar Zizou (and noone can claim he's just anyone) and beckham still had 1/3rd more. So with roberto carlos and cicinho doing the same as beckham, trying to get up for crosses and passes for goals, neither contributed anywhere near as much to the goals tally. Do you believe that right wing is the only position on the pitch goals should come from? Zizou managed 10 assists from the left which i think is quite good to be honest so how is it somehow worse for beckham to have 13? Or do you not rate zidane either, another player who is past his best but still would have plenty to contribute to a squad despite his retirement, as we saw in his Starring performance for france.

Actually I don't rate players solely on how many assists they get a season which you are trying to imply I do.
Beckham had more crosses than Zidane last season for the reason that, Beckham is given more liberty than Zidane to get into crossing positions where he will be fed balls to play into the box. Zidane controls games, Beckham doesn't.

~Rebel~ wrote:

And he's not THAT slow either; Goal from the weekend http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWLkL60sUrA

Not bad. I'll admit it.

~Rebel~

Giruilla wrote:

Actually I don't rate players solely on how many assists they get a season which you are trying to imply I do.

What Im argueing against, as i've quoted from you in the past, is that someone else of a very poor standard could come in and get more assists then Beckham, as you have stated you believe. Im showing you that he's actually done very well in his assists so its unlikely what you said would be true.

Your main argument why someone else could get so many was because of the caliber of player they would be passing to that they could "make something of any feckin hoofed ball". I showed with the stats again that they obviously didn't cope so well with balls from cicinho, carlos, raul, baptista, ronaldo, robinho, guti etc (who are all significantly lower-all under half) so the quality of pass must have something to do with it.

Really i think i've proved my point to a degree im happy with. That he contributes a lot to the team, and not just beacuse of the players around him. I have yet to see any information, quotes, even just reliable opinions saying otherwise from you, while i could go away finding and quoting plenty of articles from Guilleum Ballague et al further agreeing with my points. All the evidence is pointing in one direction, the least important of which is my own opinion having watched pretty much every real game televised last year (which is pretty much every league game they played since one a week).

Giruilla

~Rebel~ wrote:

What Im argueing against, as i've quoted from you in the past, is that someone else of a very poor standard could come in and get more assists then Beckham, as you have stated you believe. Im showing you that he's actually done very well in his assists so its unlikely what you said would be true.

Your main argument why someone else could get so many was because of the caliber of player they would be passing to that they could "make something of any feckin hoofed ball". I showed with the stats again that they obviously didn't cope so well with balls from cicinho, carlos, raul, baptista, ronaldo, robinho, guti etc (who are all significantly lower-all under half) so the quality of pass must have something to do with it.

Really i think i've proved my point to a degree im happy with. That he contributes a lot to the team, and not just beacuse of the players around him. I have yet to see any information, quotes, even just reliable opinions saying otherwise from you, while i could go away finding and quoting plenty of articles from Guilleum Ballague et al further agreeing with my points. All the evidence is pointing in one direction, the least important of which is my own opinion having watched pretty much every real game televised last year (which is pretty much every league game they played since one a week).

First off just because you've watched every game madrid played last season doesn't mean you understand football. Managers don't make decisions on who to play by statistics, they make them on opinions, so if I were you I would regard your opinion as more important than the stats on assists you have poduced.
Madrid finished 12 points behind Barcelona last season and could easily have finished in sixth place. Clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with the way Real play. Man for man they were as good as Barcelona last season except with Beckham. Man for man they are miles better than the clubs who finished just below them, Valencia, Osasuna and Seville. A lot of Reals style of play has involved knocking the ball out to Beckham who more often than not knocked the ball into the box or up the pitch without resluting in a goal. Can you produce stats of the amount of crosses Beckham made last season which didn't result in a goal? If Madrid were capable of playing passing football like Barcelona do they would stand a much better chance of winning the league. However with Bekham in the squad this isn't possible as he doesn't play this style of football, and with the loss of Zidane, Madrid have no hope in the League or Europe.

~Rebel~

Giruilla wrote:

First off just because you've watched every game madrid played last season doesn't mean you understand football.

I personally think i've played and seen enough that i do. No need to be so condescending

Managers don't make decisions on who to play by statistics, they make them on opinions, so if I were you I would regard your opinion as more important than the stats on assists you have poduced.

I didn't mean that my opinion was worth less then the statistics, but that it was worth less (though was the same as) highly respected pro's such as Guillem Ballague.

Clearly there is something fundamentally wrong with the way Real play. Man for man they were as good as Barcelona last season except with Beckham.

This first off is simply untrue. Aside from the fact the Real team were woefully unfit (Capello even said when he came in the team haven't been through a proper fitness session in 4 years) there were more problems with the players themselves then the way they play. Ronaldo was quite clearly not the player of old. He looked sluggish, lazy and disinterested, coupled with his battered ego which took so much coverage last year. Raul was an absolute shadow of his former self and only gets his game on Name rather then Merit. Contrast these with the absolutely top form duo, full of confidence and form of their lives, of Ronaldinho and Eto'o. There is simply no comparison. Robinho true has a bright future but needs a lot more development and its clear to see he (though is still great himself) is still behind the benchmark set by Messi.

Take the midfield then, last year in the center Real spent most of the time trying to cram Guti and Baptista into a wildly unbalanced malfunctioning team. Baptista could spend one week as defensive midfielder, then next central, then next offensive and the next striker. A complete lack of continutiy or knowledge of the best team as opposed to forcing all the big names onto the pitch was a major problem. I find it almost laughable that you claim Beckham is the only problem they had in an otherwise well oiled machine! Any team that tries to cram Robinho, Zidane, Baptista, Beckham, Raul and Ronaldo into the same starting 11 along with Carlos and Cicinho (after christmas) as attacking fullbacks as you'll ever find has a very obvious problem with balance. Pablo Garcia provided a bit of steel in midfield but at the same time only started half the games and often didnt seem to fit in well.
Can you see where the problems then come in?

This team does not compare to Barcelona's, and it has very little to do with Beckham. Barcelona have Xavi and Edmilson who can dominate any midfield as well as providing creativity, along with Deco and of course Messi. Guily can easily deputise but Rijkard has no problems with dropping a big name player for the good of the balance of the team.

Yes Real have some great individual players on their day but Barca have a great team.

So is it aside from the poor balance of the team, the lack of a strong top class defensive midfielder, the refusal to leave out big name players, the woeful fitness levels, the poor form of the strikers etc that Beckham was wholly to blame for Real's season? You claim to have a great understanding of football so where did these factors go in your damning tirade against Beckham? As i said all im arguing is that beckham deserves his place in a squad and you're making the job very easy (if inconveniantly longwinded).

We know he's rated by his club manager, who isn't afraid to drop and ridicule stars. We know he had the biggest contribution to goals of any player at Real. We know he personally is not responsible for the many many problems real have had over the last few years. We know he made some very important impacts during the world cup. Im aware your convinced had it just been lampard in midfield that they would have beaten Trinidad 3 or 4-0 and had no problems seeing off ecuador easily as well, but the fact remains he was the one, among all these other stars, who actually did something, and where was Lampards contribution against Andorra or Macedonia where he had no Beckham to not pass to him. Its not Beckham that made lampard bad, Lampard is just having a bit of trouble reproducing his best for for england at the moment. Look at his competition at right mid. Lennon, Pennant and Wright Phillips, all good players with a lot of potential but unfortunately none of whom have the experience or the best crossing ability, Pennants probably the best crosser but as a pool fan i'd absolutely love to be able to bring Beckham off the bench to lash a few balls onto crouch or Kuyts head. When Beckham is given the ball near the by line, he is better and more dangerous then any of these 3. At the WC he almost ended up being limited by the team and was never allowed to run free up to the right, be given the ball, and do something with it, he always had to drop very very deep to receive it which is pointless when you have gerrard lampard and hargreaves there who's job it should be. This is the same problem he had at Real last year, he ended up having to go back deep to receive it and start something off himself far too much, but he stil lmanaged to cause plenty of damage attacking wise as well as carrying a disoriented midfield at times. Really i dont know how you can't see that maybe just maybe theres a reason why people who watch him for real in spain rate him and that its not him thats ruining the teams shape but that it is him thats trying to make the most of it under what were bad conditions. He's shown he can be a leader and an experienced leader still with a lot of ability and a talent for crossing and free's among the very best in the world and who still hasn't lost his legs. A Player like that deserves their place on the squad every time.

Fúck this, im going home. I hope someone else appreciates this defence anyway even if you dont.

Big Nelly

~Rebel~ wrote:

Fúck this, im going home. I hope someone else appreciates this defence anyway even if you dont.

Well I do, but I gave up a long time ago, our so called expert thinks he knows all aboout football and we are all thick so better to leave him in dreamland.

Giruilla

Big Nelly wrote:

Well I do, but I gave up a long time ago, our so called expert thinks he knows all aboout football and we are all thick so better to leave him in dreamland.

this guy Rebel actually made some decent points and backed up his argument. the same can't be said for you. You've been rude and don't back up your claims. I don't understand why you are so offensive to me just because i don't agree with you? Many of your posts have been completely pointless. So what if my view on a player differs from yours. I know a lot more about football than you ever will based on your points.

BaZmO*

Nah fairplay rebel. Your points are well made, and just about everybody already knew what you said, well except for one person, but to quote the Tayto ad, "There's always one!!"