Homsexuality & Secondary schools: DISCUSS

LegacyUser

Hello everyone,

I’m a regular user of boards, but as myself am not out to my family and friends I’ve decided to go unregged for this.

I’m a leaving cert student and I’ve known for 2 years I’m gay. As time has gone by I’ve become more and more comfortable with being gay and I feel that I’m not ashamed of being gay.

I’ve come out to two friends, one male and one female, and I found them to be very supportive. One of them tried to tell people last Christmas, but I just rubbished what she was saying, as I didn’t want to be openly gay at that time, as I was still in 4th year.

This is bringing to me to a point I’d like to discuss: Will homosexuality and homosexual students ever be accepted into Irish secondary schools, as well as bisexual and transgendered students?

It has long been a struggle for gay teenagers to come out in the Irish education system, but as society is starting to become more welcoming to LGBT people, should legislation be put into place to protect LGBT students in schools? Most schools have an anti-bullying policy, I’m aware of that, but should this (Or, does it already?) be made to cover homophobic bullying?

I feel that I want to come out, but as I’m not sure how teachers and pupils alike would react, I’m not sure should I? I have absolutely no problem waiting until after the exams next June.

I would like to hear your opinions on this and I would like to hear your experiences on being gay in secondary schools.

UU

Hello Anonymous,

My name is Daniel and I'm 18 (nearly 19) and I went through school for many years being gay too.

Let start by telling you a bit about myself. I attended Ballinteer Community School [BCS]. Well for most of my teenage years I was, in fact, not attracted to anyone so for the first few years the whole fancying, sexual desires, etc. was never a feature in my life. Around 17, I started to become interested in other males and I came out to my family and friends last October which was a relief for me. They said they always sorta suspected I was because I'm sorta camp. Then, last February at my pre-debs I came out to my whole class who were really nice about it and supportive. My class would say stuff like "you ****" to others but once I they knew I was homo they were cool. so I was lucky that way. I was in 6th year then so everyone was more mature and everything. That was my plan. Of course, younger years would say stuff to me like "Is your arse hurting today?" but they were just kids really. So I've recently joined BelongTo which is an organisation for LGBT youth based in Dublin for people between the ages of 14 - 23. I love it - it is great! If you're interested, don't hesitate to PM me, if you live in Dublin that is.

So you want to come out as gay to your school? Well, honestly, I don't know how they will react as i don't know them. Ask yourself some questions:

- Do they seem homophobic?
- How do others treat you at present?
- What type of school is it? Some are religious and others aren't so much. It does make a difference!
- How would you go about coming out? Would you announce it if a discussion props up, for example?
- And most importantly, do you really want to come out to your school?

Expect to get the odd remark. remember, some people are just ignorant! It is illegal to discriminate somebody in school due to their sexual orientation as well as race, creed, gender, etc. The teachers and heads have a responsibility to not permit discrimination in school in whatever form.

Also, BelongTo are launching a campaign with the National Equality Board to inform schools of homophobia and ways in which to tackle it. That is ALL schools even the religious ones.

Good luck whatever action you decide to take but remember only do something if you feel comfortable with doing so.

I hope it all works out for you.

Daniel

LadyJ

Hi OP.

Just a quick question,do you really think it would be a good idea to have LGBT students specifically protected in schools?

It's just there was a discussion similar to this on Humanities forum a while back and it just seemed to me that students in general should be protected from bullying,of course,but by singling out LGBT students as a specific group to be protected,it was really just isolating them even more and probably going to create more problems for them.

abetarrush

LadyJ wrote:

Hi OP.

Just a quick question,do you really think it would be a good idea to have LGBT students specifically protected in schools?

It's just there was a discussion similar to this on Humanities forum a while back and it just seemed to me that students in general should be protected from bullying,of course,but by singling out LGBT students as a specific group to be protected,it was really just isolating them even more and probably going to create more problems for them.

exactly, yer nothin special

Why are ye treatin it like some sort of event? Are ye gonna go on the intercom and say it?

Honestly, someone tellin you your gay out of the blue is really annoyin, for me anyways

So my advice is don't go around tellin everyone, but if you're asked, don't deny it

Rev Hellfire

I totally agree with abetarrush about wanting to go about shouting it down the streets. But then from your post you don't seem to want to do that.
I would assume the existing bullying rules would cover those who have come out.

But since this is a general discussion I'll throw another issue into the mix. Ths time coming from the straight fence. I would be of the opinion that if someone does come out that they should be excluded from the main changing rooms (no no seriously bear with me).
While you may be coming to terms your own sexuality at this time, equally so are straight males and females. Certainly the idea of homosexuals in the male lockers rooms would in my view be as equally as unacceptable as having males in the females lockers. Quite simply most straights would be uncomfortable undressing beside a homosexual. Now I'm sure everyone’s a gent and wouldn't be thinking impure thoughts, but would there be a case for segregation?

LadyJ

Rev Hellfire wrote:

Quite simply most straights would be uncomfortable undressing beside a homosexual. Now I'm sure everyone’s a gent and wouldn't be thinking impure thoughts, but would there be a case for segregation?

Do you just mean men here?

I dunno,I certainly wouldn't be uncomfortable changing beside a lesbian. She's got everything that I have afterall.

Rev Hellfire

Well I cann't speak for women and as far as men are concerned I can only go by what I've observed.
But then the problem isn't with them having what you have, but rather watching what you have Would you be happy changing in front of men, sure we've all seen pictures of what you have and you've seen pictures of what we have so its alright.

btw I'm not saying homosexuals are leering, but rather that people feel uncomforatble with the idea that people might be watching them in such a manner. The truth of the feeling is unimportent.

claire h

Rev Hellfire wrote:

I would be of the opinion that if someone does come out that they should be excluded from the main changing rooms (no no seriously bear with me).
While you may be coming to terms your own sexuality at this time, equally so are straight males and females. Certainly the idea of homosexuals in the male lockers rooms would in my view be as equally as unacceptable as having males in the females lockers. Quite simply most straights would be uncomfortable undressing beside a homosexual. Now I'm sure everyone’s a gent and wouldn't be thinking impure thoughts, but would there be a case for segregation?

Oh, for god's sake. Like segregation has anything to do with people's comfort levels - it's all coming from antiquated ideas about what's appropriate and everyone's main concern is that no one gets pregnant anyway. :rolleyes:

Are most straights so arrogant as to think that every gay person is ogling them? And what if you're bi - do you just get a separate changing room altogether? What if you, quite rightly, feel that it's no business of the school who you find yourself attracted to? Are they going to go around hunting for people they think might be gay and therefore need to be separated from others of their gender? Sexuality is anything but static, especially when people are teenagers - imposing regulations like that would be ridiculous.

Anon_Student wrote:

This is bringing to me to a point I’d like to discuss: Will homosexuality and homosexual students ever be accepted into Irish secondary schools, as well as bisexual and transgendered students?

It has long been a struggle for gay teenagers to come out in the Irish education system, but as society is starting to become more welcoming to LGBT people, should legislation be put into place to protect LGBT students in schools? Most schools have an anti-bullying policy, I’m aware of that, but should this (Or, does it already?) be made to cover homophobic bullying?

I don't know if there are specific rules in place about homophobic bullying but bullying is bullying - as other posters have said, singling out one particular discriminated group probably wouldn't be beneficial. Kids in schools are obnoxious to people for all kinds of reasons - not just sexuality.

Having said that I think sometimes, depending on the school and the teacher, sexuality-related bullying does get overlooked because of either discomfort or homophobia on the part of those in charge. So that is something that needs to be dealt with.

I feel that I want to come out, but as I’m not sure how teachers and pupils alike would react, I’m not sure should I? I have absolutely no problem waiting until after the exams next June.

If coming out as a big thing is important to you, then go for it. But honestly, keeping people updated on a need-to-know basis will probably serve you better - e.g. your mates are all talking about hot girls or whatever, and you're all, "lads, you'd think you'd have realised by now I'm not into the ladies..." Of course, depending on how things have gone before, you may need to sit your friends down for a talk - but as for teachers, many of them probably couldn't care less. It's one thing to, say, point out that your English teacher has made a statement that assumes everyone in the room is straight, and another to jump up in the middle of trigonometry and declare your fondess for nubile young men, y'know?

Taking this approach also means you can't be accused of making a big deal of things, if you feel that might be an issue for people in your school.

The Leaving Cert year does tend to bring you closer to the people in school - if you've found yourself lying or lying-by-omission an awful lot in the past, it might be easier for you to share things rather than hide.

Good luck, whatever you do.

spurious

For those who think their teachers might (or should) be interested, there is a seminar on tackling homophobic bullying in schools in Trinity next Thursday. Not sure if it is full yet, but might be worth an email. Your schools should have been informed of it, but I know from experience, in some schools such information 'goes missing'.

http://www.tcd.ie/childrensresearchcentre/index.php?id=129

Rev Hellfire

claire h wrote:

Oh, for god's sake. Like segregation has anything to do with people's comfort levels - it's all coming from antiquated ideas about what's appropriate and everyone's main concern is that no one gets pregnant anyway. :rolleyes:

Are most straights so arrogant as to think that every gay person is ogling them?

So you believe the only reason that males and females are split up in school is to stop them getting pregnant ? Now I’m willing to accept that now a days maybe teenagers are more accepting and willing to change in front of homosexual (or the opposite gender), but I doubt it’s the case.

The point I’m making (badly I admit) is that if a person comes out they can not expect things to be ok, some people are will be uneasy about it. I personally feel that straights are not accepting of homosexuality but rather tolerate it ( most of my friends disagree for the record), and I don’t believe it will change.

So while everyone else says go for it, I say go for it if you are prepared to accept the consequences it will bring, but that maybe discretion is the better part of valor and keep it to those who really need to know. Because once you reach college it is less of an issue.

Endymion

Rev Hellfire you either have a problem being bollix naked infront of people or you don't. If you don't want to run the risk of a homo checking out your gear, then don't use the changing room. Your discomfort and paranoia, your problem.

Also, wrt splitting of genders, people view being naked infront of the opposite get very differently to being naked infront of the same sex.

And finally, I find it funny that both you and Abe attempted to make the OP out to be some kind of "shout it from the roof tops" homosexual, when what he actually said is that he denied it, and plans to keep it private, for awhile at least.

Stark

Rev Hellfire, I suggest you drop this whole locker room debate. It has nothing to do with what the original poster was asking.

abetarrush

Stark wrote:

Rev Hellfire, I suggest you drop this whole locker room debate. It has nothing to do with what the original poster was asking.

yes, its gettin a bit creepy

moridin

OP, I would say it depends on your personality and your relationship with the others in your year... if you're an outgoing guy with lots of friends who gets on well with mostly everyone, then I think that for the most part the reaction wouldn't be hugely negative.

I'd agree with the other posters though, I wouldn't shout it from the rooftops, tell your mates and don't deny it if asked. Why should it matter so much that it needs to be proclaimed - being gay is part of who you are, it's not the sum of who you are.

Endymion

moridin wrote:

I'd agree with the other posters though, I wouldn't shout it from the rooftops, tell your mates and don't deny it if asked. Why should it matter so much that it needs to be proclaimed - being gay is part of who you are, it's not the sum of who you are.

Just to add, not denying something isn't the same as admitting something. Feel free to tell people to piss off and mind their own business.

UU

Salut!

Oh the changing rooms! Eek! :eek:
I had to try to avoid them when I was in school so I gave up PE! Well I hated PE anyway but the temptation in was way too much for me.
Anyway, away from that!

Okay, OP, just tell a few friends who you can really trust about your gayness. Of course, please try not to get caught snogging the face off another person of the same gender. That's what happened to my friend at school at a school disco and that's how he came out. It was so embarassing for him but he was foolish . If somebody asks if you're gay, don't deny it. Of course, if they're all homophobic, I wouldn't tell them.

Hold on there! Once you go to college (if you decide to go), life will be so much better and free. If you want, you could go to an LGBT group like BelongTo. That way, you could get support on how to approach coming out. Here's their website: http://www.belongto.org/.

Bonne Chance!

JC 2K3

In my experience teenagers these days don't really care about one's sexuality. That's just my life experience though. There's not much of a general bullying problem in my school though.

David Thomas, "I'm the only gay in the village"(or in this case school) types piss me off so much though. They have it coming to them if they're gonna act that way.

I really don't believe that a gay kid getting bullied is any different to a fat kid/nerd getting bullied anyway. Sure it's a societal problem, but it falls under the umbrella of acceptance of people who are different. Specific protection for LGBTs is a ridiclous idea.

Hmm_Messiah

David Thomas, "I'm the only gay in the village"(or in this case school) types piss me off so much though. They have it coming to them if they're gonna act that way.

To suggest any one "has it coming to them " regarding bullying because of how they behave is a dangerous thing.

By extension it means harassment and assault even are ok depending on whether some one pisses you off. Equally it would be ok for some one to bully and torment you if you're behaviour pissed them off.

People talking some gobblygook foriegn language pisses me off... its ok to harass them
Some foreign b*****d comes taking our jobs, that pisses me off...is ok to bully them.
That young one with the skirt like a belt and looks like she's out in her underwear, she pisses me off......

There is such a thing as personal integrity which is not dependent on some one behaving by a code.

You're right I think in how you understand bullying, but then you go and justify it because of a persons behaviour.

abetarrush

JC 2K3 wrote:

exactly

Hmm Messiah wrote:

To suggest any one "has it coming to them " regarding bullying because of how they behave is a dangerous thing.

True, but if a guy is goin around tellin everyone hes gay all the time, he has no right to moan/be surprised abt bein bullied, so yeah, he wud b askin 4 it

Endymion

abetarrush wrote:

exactly

True, but if a guy is goin around tellin everyone hes gay all the time, he has no right to moan/be surprised abt bein bullied, so yeah, he wud b askin 4 it

So if two lads in the same school start going out, and decide to hold hands in the yard they deserve what they have coming it them?

People don't run up to people and declare they are gay to everyone they meet. However some gay peopel do talk about who they fancy, and their sex life and dress to reflect their sexuality.

By you logic, if a girl goes around all the time talking about boys and sexy cloths, then it's ok to call her a whore, sure she has it coming.

Oh no, can't go exposing people to something they might not like.

layke

Messiah, both JC and Abe are just stating the obvious truth, they may not agree with it but it's what happens when you go about advertising and screaming your lungs out. It's just the way it is.

Secondly, I when I was in school we had a couple of closet gay blokes, everyone knew (due to them being quite camp) and nobody ever gave a ****. Years later after we had left school the truth came out.

The only thing ever said was "sure we knew that anyway".

Then again I went to a slightly posh school however somewhere like Finglas Public school, I doubt it would go down so well.

For the record, I don't think some one who is LGBT should recieve any more rights then any other person. If you start making a big fuss about it, you draw attention, potentially breeding hatred.

WexfordMusings

I am going to try and wade in here...

The Dept of Education issued a directive to Schools a couple of years ago to introduce an anti-bullying policy but still nearly 70% of schools do not have one. That also includes bullying leveled at Homosexual people. This is a specific instruction that Schools and Boards of Managements have ignored.

According to a recent survey 90% of children in Second Level school have witnessed or experienced bullying of a homophobic nature and 70% of teachers have witnessed or experienced it. A problem is of course that the teacher doesnt know what to do, (because of a lack of instruction or policy) mainly because the may think it could make matters worse. Then of course the person doing the bullying and the person being bullied sees the teacher doing nothing which for the person perpatrating the offence reinforces the idea that it is okay to continue and the perosn getting bullied feels that there is no point going to their teacher. And so it continues...

Now, looking at the issue a little closer, teachers and principals of schools are - "in-loco-parentus" (not sure of the spelling) - this means that during school hours the teachers and principal are responsible for the care of its students, i.e. acting as parent. By proxy the board of management of the school can also be held responsible.

I believe that if a child is being bullied in school that the teachers, principal and board of management can be held responsible, and could even be brought to court.

What do ye think?

Endymion

layke wrote:

Messiah, both JC and Abe are just stating the obvious truth, they may not agree with it but it's what happens when you go about advertising and screaming your lungs out. It's just the way it is.

I've never seen some screaming out their sexuality at the top of there lungs.

What do you mean by "advertise" would talking to your friends about it be considered advertising, would holding hands be considered advertising? How much advertising do hetrosexual kids do? As I remember ****ing this "bird" or that "bird" was all some guys would talk about in school. I've seen lads walk aroudn town with t-shirts saying Fanny magnet and so forth, would it be ok to wear one saying Cock magnet, or would that be to "in your face".

You talk about equal rights, but you don't think LGBT students should be free to express their sexuality in the same way everyone else does.

Hmm_Messiah

Messiah, both JC and Abe are just stating the obvious truth, they may not agree with it but it's what happens when you go about advertising and screaming your lungs out. It's just the way it is.

I commented on what JC 2k3 said - which was not just stating an obvious truth. The way he worded it he explicitly said there is a type of person who deserves to be bullied.

Its not the "truth", nor is it just the way it is - its apparently the way JC 2k3 is.

Regarding specifying homophobia in anti -bullying procedures, I'm not too sure that school bullying often equates to real homophobia, mostly as others said its picking on any trait thats effective.

But none of it would be looking fgor special rights for gay people. If there was a policy to allow a certain area of a concert hall for wheelchairs/disabled, but it was then realised that it was too far away for those which sight-impairments ; changing the location would not be meeting some special need, it would simply be accomodating different needs to meet the same goal - equal enjoyment of the event.

WexfordMusings

Hmm Messiah,

I find myself in the unusual position of agreeing with you. Of course school bullying doesnt equate to homophobia, simply because not all bullying in school is of a homophobic nature.

However, I disagree with you about looking for special rights as you put it. All through the ages, minority groups have had to fight for their rights. Whether you call them special or not. The Employment Equality Act could have just stated that it was illegal to treat staff differently for any reason, but intead it doesnt. This act specifically list sexual orientation, but this doesnt give gay people special rights. Just re-affirms to all the neaderthals out there that all people (including GLBT even) have equal rights.

Hmm_Messiah

I don't understand you, or you misunderstood me. I said there are not special rights, but there may be different needs to achieve equal rights.

The specifics were put in the legislation to simplify the legalities; while specific situations are listed they are all under the umbrella of the same single right to equal treatment.

And it's nice that you agree with me, but just to confirm, I actually meant many bulying cases against "gays" are not in any real way homophobic (as I understand it )

layke

Carnivore wrote:

I've never seen some screaming out their sexuality at the top of there lungs

I have. Lots of nights out with friends of mine. Screaming involved

You talk about equal rights, but you don't think LGBT students should be free to express their sexuality in the same way everyone else does.

No I do, dosn't bother me one bit. I just think in school it will bring you more trouble then it's worth. Pending on which school your in, that's all.

Messiah, fair nuff, it reads different to me though. I see Abe just bluntly attempting to say keep yer head down and say nowt in school. It's hard enough going through it as it is. Sure it's not the most delicatly put but I don't see what he wrote as not being malicious, in fact where does he expressly say anyone gay should get a beating?

abetarrush

Carnivore wrote:

I've never seen some screaming out their sexuality at the top of there lungs.

What do you mean by "advertise" would talking to your friends about it be considered advertising, would holding hands be considered advertising? How much advertising do hetrosexual kids do? As I remember ****ing this "bird" or that "bird" was all some guys would talk about in school. I've seen lads walk aroudn town with t-shirts saying Fanny magnet and so forth, would it be ok to wear one saying Cock magnet, or would that be to "in your face".

You talk about equal rights, but you don't think LGBT students should be free to express their sexuality in the same way everyone else does.

2 gay guys in my school, lets call them Rosie and Jim

Rosie was in my year, Jim a year down

Rosie started dressin differently, singin Britney Spears out loud in class [He doesnt even like her! he's emo and such]
THE KILLER: He goes up to loads of the girls and just feels their tits, and says, Oh, i'm gay, so its ok to do that

Jim: Constantly wore a hoody with CAMP on it, and a sparkly purple scarf. Says he wants to have kids himself [wtf??]

And, he was sittin on my row on the plane on the way home from France. My mate beside me said UGH, we have school tmoro! and I said I know, it's gay

and he was all like WHY ARE YOU SLAGGIN MY PEEPS???


And as an added bonus: Some guy on a TV show. This girl said "OMG, u really look like my old boyfriend" and the guy said, "did he turn out to be gay? Cos I am"


Yeah, me and JC jus said if someone goes around advertisin their gayness like the above, they're basically cruisin for a bruisin

But its not right! its bullying!


I dont think teachers should be held responsible. In fairness, theres like 700 students in most schools, so i doubt most teachers would know about half the bullyin that goes on

But if the bully-ee told a teacher, I highly doubt they'd do nothin about it

Like I said, its bullyin

***Someone gets slagged / battered cos of somethin about them***

what to do?

Teacher talks to / punsihes the bully // contacts their parents

swiss

abetarrush wrote:

2 gay guys in my school, lets call them Rosie and Jim

Rosie was in my year, Jim a year down

Rosie started dressin differently, singin Britney Spears out loud in class [He doesnt even like her! he's emo and such]
THE KILLER: He goes up to loads of the girls and just feels their tits, and says, Oh, i'm gay, so its ok to do that

Jim: Constantly wore a hoody with CAMP on it, and a sparkly purple scarf. Says he wants to have kids himself [wtf??]

And, he was sittin on my row on the plane on the way home from France. My mate beside me said UGH, we have school tmoro! and I said I know, it's gay

and he was all like WHY ARE YOU SLAGGIN MY PEEPS???


And as an added bonus: Some guy on a TV show. This girl said "OMG, u really look like my old boyfriend" and the guy said, "did he turn out to be gay? Cos I am"


Yeah, me and JC jus said if someone goes around advertisin their gayness like the above, they're basically cruisin for a bruisin

But its not right! its bullying!


I dont think teachers should be held responsible. In fairness, theres like 700 students in most schools, so i doubt most teachers would know about half the bullyin that goes on

But if the bully-ee told a teacher, I highly doubt they'd do nothin about it

Like I said, its bullyin

***Someone gets slagged / battered cos of somethin about them***

what to do?

Teacher talks to / punsihes the bully // contacts their parents

What?

Boston

layke wrote:

I have. Lots of nights out with friends of mine. Screaming involved

People get drunk and become fab, it's better then getting drunk and becoming violent.

No I do, doesn't bother me one bit. I just think in school it will bring you more trouble then it's worth. Pending on which school your in, that's all.

Messiah, fair nuff, it reads different to me though. I see Abe just bluntly attempting to say keep year head down and say nowt in school.

Can you accept that some people might not want to go through school keeping there heads down, especially when doing its out of fear of other peoples insecurities. Live in the shadows, or face bullying for what you are. What type of person finds that acceptable.


Abe, Your friend "rosie" seems perfectly fine. Some women love that whole "fag hag" thing. Did the girls mind? No, so why should you. did you ever think of cutting him some slack?

As for this Jim guy, seems to be light hearted joking you decided to be offended by. Also maybe you shouldn't be so astoundingly inconsiderate as to use gay as a derogatory term while sitting beside someone who is gay, did you think of that?

But all that aside, you are a child. Adults don't bully or batter people they don't like. That behavior just isn't on. I hope you grow up at some stage.

abetarrush

LiouVille wrote:

People get drunk and become fab, it's better then getting drunk and becoming violent.


Can you accept that some people might not want to go through school keeping there heads down, especially when doing its out of fear of other peoples insecurities. Live in the shadows, or face bullying for what you are. What type of person finds that acceptable.


Abe, Your friend "rosie" seems perfectly fine. Some women love that whole "fag hag" thing. Did the girls mind? No, so why should you. did you ever think of cutting him some slack?

As for this Jim guy, seems to be light hearted joking you decided to be offended by. Also maybe you shouldn't be so astoundingly inconsiderate as to use gay as a derogatory term while sitting beside someone who is gay, did you think of that?

But all that aside, you are a child. Adults don't bully or batter people they don't like. That behavior just isn't on. I hope you grow up at some stage.

Oh really? So theres no people over 18 who beat/slag people because of their race etc???

And who said I go around bashin/slaggin people???? wtf?

And yes, the girls did mind, a lot! Gay men aren't women, so they don't have the right to do that, at least not without consent. And fag-hags are generally mingers who wont get any other action

And yer man Jim, he was asleep for the whole flight! But hopped up when I said that

So don't assume you know everything next time