Homsexuality & Secondary schools: DISCUSS

Boston

abetarrush wrote:

Oh really? So theres no people over 18 who beat/slag people because of their race etc???

And those people are scum, your point is what exactly? That you could be scum?

And who said I go around bashin/slaggin people???? wtf?

Not I, however you advocate it, and express and opinion that it is right. That is a child's stance.

And yes, the girls did mind, a lot! Gay men aren't women, so they don't have the right to do that, at least not without consent. And fag-hags are generally mingers who wont get any other action

Then I'm sure the guy got a slap in the face for his troubles, again whats it got to do with you?

And yer man Jim, he was asleep for the whole flight! But hopped up when I said that

Well he was minding his own buisness and staying out of your conversation. You where in the wrong dude. If I was sitting on a flight listening to someone ****e on abotu gay this and **** that, I'd say something to them as well. You honestly expect us to see your side of this? While allot of gays don't have a problem with the way in which the term is used in general society, most wouldn't think that all gays should feel the same.

I've no problem with the term ****, I sometimes use it, however if I was sitting beside someone in a cinema or long flight, and they asked me to stop, I wouldn't hold it against them, because i recognise that sometimes in life, you can't be an asshole 100% of the time, to 100% of the people. Thus stop being self centered and learn some empathy.

abetarrush

Do u even read anyones posts?


You clearly said "ADULTS DONT BULLY"

And i said twice that I never meant people deserved to be bullied, but if they go around advertisin their sexuality
[dont bother sayin thats bs, cos you know well its not] that they should expect some negative attention


As for the guy on the flight, he's a dub, he knows well how that word is used. He just cudnt pass the chance to remind us he's gay, and im not the only one who thought so
Also, I wasnt bein inconsiderate, I thought he was asleep. And anyway, I wasnt talkin to him, so he was the rude one listenin in
So there

And I never said Mr Grabby-hands was my business, i was givin an example

So like I said before, stop bein to presumptuous and actin like you know everything

BTW, How old are you???

Boston

abetarrush wrote:

Do u even read anyones posts?


You clearly said "ADULTS DONT BULLY"

No I didn't, care to provide a quote for that. I called you a child for your attitudes.

And i said twice that I never meant people deserved to be bullied, but if they go around advertisin their sexuality
[dont bother sayin thats bs, cos you know well its not] that they should expect some negative attention

Cruising for a brusing was the phase you used actually.

As for the guy on the flight, he's a dub, he knows well how that word is used. He just cudnt pass the chance to remind us he's gay, and im not the only one who thought so

Of course he knew how the word is used, in the same way most people know now knacker, skanger, retard, bitch, ****, ****nuts ect ect ect are used, doesn't mean that everyone should be happy with having those terms used in front of them. There something called common decency. Fair enough that you don't watch what you say all the time, but once someone points out they have a problem with you being crude and vulgar, the polite thing to do is to respect that, especially when stuck on a flight together.

Also I see nothing wrong with someone reminding you of their sexuality in that instance. Someone saying "Sorry but why are you insulting a community with which I share an affinity?", or as the young'ens say "why you dis'ing my peeps?", is not rubbing their sexuality in your face

I thought he was asleep. And anyway, I wasnt talkin to him, so he was the rude one listenin in
So there

I see, he should have switched off his hearing. Is this some special ability you believe gay men to posses? Is it like gay charisma?

And I never said Mr Grabby-hands was my business, i was givin an example

But you hold a deep seeded resentment about it. Jealousy perhaps? But of who, the lady or the gent.

So like I said before, stop bein to presumptuous and actin like you know everything

BTW, How old are you???

Your examples, I'm just picking them a part. As for my Age, lets jsut say I can drink legally in bars.

Nevyn

Hi LiouVille good to see your back

SmoothyG

LiouVille wrote:

But all that aside, you are a child. Adults don't bully or batter people they don't like. That behavior just isn't on. I hope you grow up at some stage.

Sorry to interupt but you did say that, post 30.

, using gay as a darogatory term is very wrong, abetarrush should know that by know if he is old enough to work a pc.

i think you are right Liou but you are kinda putting words in his mouth
He does have a point that negative reactions to wearing your sexuality on your sleeve is to be expected in high school, it is a problem we are yet to overcome as a society, but those who choose to stand up for thier rights must expect opposition.
There comes a point where we have to accept that our society is a work in progress, aslong as today is better than yesterday i think we are doing well

abetarrush

LiouVille wrote:

Adults don't bully or batter people they don't like.

I said cruisin for a brusin as in they shud expect some negative attention. I never said they'd deserve it, or that its in any way OK to do

Like I said, i actually thought it was ok for gays to grab women, but my opinion on that only changed cos of the way my friends felt afterwards

And stop bein so condescendin

Ive been able to drink legally in a bar for over a year

And you just said it yerself, ur pickin at my words, aka tryin to twist them

So, since you're not listenin, ill hafta repeat myself

I'm only sayin what results are guaranteed to come from advertising your sexuality, but im not sayin they're right or wrong

As for gay as a derogatory term, I'm just used to sayin it, as is many many other irish men

I try to be considerate if im around gays, so I dont see why I should have my face eaten off when they know what I was talkin about

Boston

SmoothyG wrote:

Sorry to interupt but you did say that, post 30.

So I did, my mistake.

i think you are right Liou but you are kinda putting words in his mouth
He does have a point that negative reactions to wearing your sexuality on your sleeve is to be expected in high school, it is a problem we are yet to overcome as a society, but those who choose to stand up for thier rights must expect opposition.

Problem arises when the response is disprotionate and out of line with what others would sproportionate. people like Abe should really look at their behavior and if they are viewing others fairly.

If instead of "Jim" asking if a friend's Ex was gay (presumably joking about hooking up with him) another girl had asked "So, is he still single" Abe wouldn't have even noticed.

I'm sorry but I just have a problem with his attitude that someone like this Jim fello can expect abuse if they stand up for themselves, and say, "actually no, I don't feel like listening to this ****e for the next four hours".
What is wrong with expecting people to treat each other with some decency?

When someone asks you be be quiet in the cinema are they Cruising for a bruising too Abe? Should they expect to told to **** off?

Also all this "wearing their sexuality on their sleeve", "Advertising it", "shouting about it". Who defines where they things begin and end? There's been posters on this forum that have found gays holding hands as rubbing it in peoples faces. Is a gay allowed to express there sexuality as much as a heterosexual?

For example, guys seldom seem pushed when Girls score each other (provided their hot sexy ladies doing it for the attention of men) however when guys kiss it's "sick and repulsive", and cruising for a bruising.

I'm only saying what results are guaranteed to come from advertising your sexuality, but im not sayin they're right or wrong

I live in a world where the first thing I expect from people when displaying my sexuality is utter and complete indifference. I expect the same reaction regardless of who I'm holding hands with, kissing, hugging ect. Now sometimes that expectation isn't met, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't hold people to it, and it certainly doesn't mean a negative reaction is guaranteed.

Twinkle-star15

Carnivore wrote:

I've never seen some screaming out their sexuality at the top of there lungs.

I have. Both gay and straight. And I don't like when either orientation does it, frankly. Like one guy who managed to squeeze the fact that he was bi into every conversation for a year, or the girl who had to stop and ogle every guy on the street and 'rate' them too. While I wouldn't say 'they had it coming to them', if someone is that annoying, they can expect to lose some friends. People are shallow, that's a fact of life. And you can't go up to students and say 'include so-and-so in your group because they don't have any friends', because that's not fair on a) the group of friends and b) the person you're asking for (trust me on that one, it's happened to me ), because everyone just feels awkward and forced. It's up to the group to realise that we're all special and unique like snowflakes, and the other person to realise that there's 'different' and then there's 'freakish'. If they're happy being freakish all well and good, and if their friends accept them exactly the way they are that's bloody fantastic! But rarely is anyone 100 per cent accepted.

To be absolutely clear, I am NOT saying people should change who they are, rather that they should tone down the annoying habits. Like telling a child to control their temper or stop sucking their thumb, rather than telling them they have to dress a certain way and listen to certain music.

And finally, an apology to the OP, because this has absolutely nothing to do with the original question asked.

JC 2K3

Hmm_Messiah wrote:

To suggest any one "has it coming to them " regarding bullying because of how they behave is a dangerous thing.

By extension it means harassment and assault even are ok depending on whether some one pisses you off. Equally it would be ok for some one to bully and torment you if you're behaviour pissed them off.

People talking some gobblygook foriegn language pisses me off... its ok to harass them
Some foreign b*****d comes taking our jobs, that pisses me off...is ok to bully them.
That young one with the skirt like a belt and looks like she's out in her underwear, she pisses me off......

There is such a thing as personal integrity which is not dependent on some one behaving by a code.

You're right I think in how you understand bullying, but then you go and justify it because of a persons behaviour.

Ah come on, that's twisting my words. I mentioned David Thomas's name to imply that it was put on and exaggerated - ie. ANNOYING. There's a difference between acting camp and acting like an idiot who can't go 2 seconds without mentioning (gay) sex or how outrageous it is that he's gay(Don't tell me this doesn't happen, IT DOES, well one person I know anyway). I'm not saying this is a reason to be bullied. Bullying's never justified, but bullying happens in schools, it's a fact. It'll likely never change. You can have personal integrity without being an annoying attention whore. You can express your personality without imposing it on others.

Carnivore wrote:

So if two lads in the same school start going out, and decide to hold hands in the yard they deserve what they have coming it them?

People don't run up to people and declare they are gay to everyone they meet. However some gay peopel do talk about who they fancy, and their sex life and dress to reflect their sexuality.

By you logic, if a girl goes around all the time talking about boys and sexy cloths, then it's ok to call her a whore, sure she has it coming.

Oh no, can't go exposing people to something they might not like.

Read above. I can't believe how wrongly my post was interpereted....

abetarrush wrote:

Rosie started dressin differently, singin Britney Spears out loud in class [He doesnt even like her! he's emo and such]
THE KILLER: He goes up to loads of the girls and just feels their tits, and says, Oh, i'm gay, so its ok to do that

Yeah, there's a gay in my school and a hug with a girl=an oppertunity to grope her, I don't understand it....

abetarrush wrote:

Jim: Constantly wore a hoody with CAMP on it, and a sparkly purple scarf.

I wouldn't consider that too bad tbh. As long as he does it because he genuinely likes his clothes rather than to be different and broadcast his sexuality. But in any case that's acceptable enough, despite making himself a target.

abetarrush wrote:

Yeah, me and JC jus said if someone goes around advertisin their gayness like the above, they're basically cruisin for a bruisin

But its not right! its bullying!

Yup, sad truth in some cases. In many other cases, however, my empathy is limited.

abetarrush wrote:

***Someone gets slagged / battered cos of somethin about them***

what to do?

Teacher talks to / punsihes the bully // contacts their parents

Exactly.

Hmm_Messiah

JC 2K3 wrote:

David Thomas, "I'm the only gay in the village"(or in this case school) types piss me off so much though. They have it coming to them if they're gonna act that way.

Thats what you said, I didn't twist your words, and you weren't misinterpreted.
Maybe , just maybe you said things the wrong way. All I was pointling out is that bullying is a difficult subject if some one obviously against it can still manage to say the above in the middle of his post.

JC 2K3

I hate attention whores. This applies to anyone for any reason really.

I have no problem with people expressing themselves as long as they do it modestly. Although I don't believe anyone should be bullied for it.(Told to grow up maybe, nothing serious)

"They have it coming to them" didn't mean I advocated it.

Sorry for any ambiguity.

abetarrush

JC 2K3 wrote:

I hate attention whores. This applies to anyone for any reason really.

I have no problem with people expressing themselves as long as they do it modestly. Although I don't believe anyone should be bullied for it.(Told to grow up maybe, nothing serious)

"They have it coming to them" didn't mean I advocated it.

Sorry for any ambiguity.

here here!

LiouVille wrote:

people like Abe should really look at their behavior and if they are viewing others fairly.

What do you mean people like me? Someone with an opinion? You judgin me cos of somethin about me? Now, wha would that remind me of?....

LiouVille wrote:

If instead of "Jim" asking if a friend's Ex was gay (presumably joking about hooking up with him) another girl had asked "So, is he still single" Abe wouldn't have even noticed.

WTF has this got to do wtih anything????

LiouVille wrote:

I'm sorry but I just have a problem with his attitude that someone like this Jim fello can expect abuse if they stand up for themselves

Why should they stand up for themselves? Thats not what any of us meant at all. If you read my posts you'd understand
I'm just statin the fact that there'll always be XXX-phobia in schools, and at the end of the day, Boys will be Boys

This is the 5th time sayin this, but whatever

If someone wants to advertise themselves bein gay, they have no right to be surprised if they attract negative attention. They should have more common sense. Is it right that they get bullied? NoBut is it stupid to do so when they know they'll be provokin bullies?[intentionally or not] Yes

IMO

Stark

abetarrush wrote:

But is it stupid to do so when they know they'll be provokin bullies?[intentionally or not] Yes

I completely disagree. By standing firm in the face of bullies, you're re-asserting your self-confidence, something which bullying erodes. Strong people are less of a target for bullies.

abetarrush

Stark wrote:

I completely disagree. By standing firm in the face of bullies, you're re-asserting your self-confidence, something which bullying erodes. Strong people are less of a target for bullies.

True, but if you can't stand up for yerself, its like jumpin into the deep end on the day of your first swimmin lessons

SmoothyG

you both have a fair point and i have to stick up for abe here. he is not condoning it, he has said several time that he doesnt, I do agree that if you want to stand up for your rights then it is only logical to expect opposition. Any gay person, of any age would be stupid not to realise that there is people out there that, for whatever reason, will have a problem with it, especially in schools where young boys are desperatly seeking to fit in. But that goes for everything, not just a persons sexuality.

It doesnt make it right, nobody here has said that, but it will be expected.

Boston

SmoothyG wrote:

you both have a fair point and i have to stick up for abe here. he is not condoning it, he has said several time that he doesnt, I do agree that if you want to stand up for your rights then it is only logical to expect opposition. Any gay person, of any age would be stupid not to realise that there is people out there that, for whatever reason, will have a problem with it, especially in schools where young boys are desperatly seeking to fit in. But that goes for everything, not just a persons sexuality.

It doesnt make it right, nobody here has said that, but it will be expected.

What you expect is for people to hide what they are, or they have it coming. Abe has said that people who advertise what they are, are asking for it, are looking for the hassle. Thats not true. This attitude of "sure what do you expect" puts it all on the victium. How about expecting human decency.

Kids make mistakes, that goes without doubt. Some don't handle coming out and being out as well as they maybe should. You shouldn't hold it against them. you have to remember, for them, for at least a little while, it will be this huge life changing life defining thing.

LiouVille

LiouVille wrote:

What you expect is for people to hide what they are, or they have it coming. Abe has said that people who advertise what they are, are asking for it, are looking for the hassle. Thats not true. This attitude of "sure what do you expect" puts it all on the victium. How about expecting human decency.

Exactly.
Do people run out of the George,down the street beating up random straight people/name call them or otherwise shrug frown or taunt at them?
Thought not
So theres the higher moral ground on the tolerance issue anyway.


Anything else anybody would like to say on that issue whilst we're here?

SmoothyG

LiouVille wrote:

What you expect is for people to hide what they are, or they have it coming. Abe has said that people who advertise what they are, are asking for it, are looking for the hassle. Thats not true. This attitude of "sure what do you expect" puts it all on the victium. How about expecting human decency.

I dont expect people to hide, The point i am trying to make is homophobia in schools is there, No-one here thinks it is fair but it is not a perfect world. abe was using a bad hoice of words and he has tryed to ammend that. He was trying to say, and he is right, that if a person publicly displays their homosexuality in a school then the bullies will hone in on it. Of course they will, it doesnt make it right, and no one has said that, but it is a fact of life.
As a gay boy in school this is one of the challenges that they will face.

If you go around expecting human decency from every kid in school then you are in a dream world.

Hmm_Messiah

Might make some posts easier to read if you remember that its verb+"ing"
so it's:

judging, something, jumping, swimming, stating, saying, provoking, cruising
condescending, picking, listening, being

otherwise its comes accross as as writing with an accent or lazy text talk and an otherwise possibly valid point can be lost .

Hmm_Messiah

If you go around expecting human decency from every kid in school then you are in a dream world.

If you stop hoping for it you may as well give up on this world.
I "think" LiouVille got what the others were saying, but just finds it hard to stomach the suggestion some one should tone down their personality for the sake of their physical/pyschological safety.

And I would have to agree with him there. Of course there are situations where its wiser to behave a certain way, but within the everyday routine of living your life itsnot ok to tell some one to change their legitimate behaviour to avid some one else unacceptable behaviour.

Boston

SmoothyG wrote:

I dont expect people to hide, The point i am trying to make is homophobia in schools is there, No-one here thinks it is fair but it is not a perfect world. abe was using a bad hoice of words and he has tryed to ammend that. He was trying to say, and he is right, that if a person publicly displays their homosexuality in a school then the bullies will hone in on it. Of course they will, it doesnt make it right, and no one has said that, but it is a fact of life.
As a gay boy in school this is one of the challenges that they will face.

If you go around expecting human decency from every kid in school then you are in a dream world.

That's not what he said though, he and others went further and claimed "hey have it coming to them". That can only be taken one way, as an endorsement. It's excusing the in-excusable.

If you go around expecting people to hate you for what you are, you'll end up a very twisted and bitter young person. You'll see malicious action where there is none and insult where none is intended. Hope for the best in people, many won't let you down. There's going to be arseholes in every walk of life, but they shouldn't dictate how you live your life.

SmoothyG

LiouVille wrote:

That's not what he said though, he and others went further and claimed "hey have it coming to them". That can only be taken one way, as an endorsement. It's excusing the in-excusable.

If you go around expecting people to hate you for what you are, you'll end up a very twisted and bitter young person. You'll see malicious action where there is none and insult where none is intended. Hope for the best in people, many won't let you down. There's going to be arseholes in every walk of life, but they shouldn't dictate how you live your life.

why are you taking the extremities of everything said, it is not everyone or no one, is it not reasonable to assume in a school that some people with have a problem with you? that doesn't indicate you should be expecing people to hate you for who you are. for the sake of arguing you take the interpretation of everyone hates, or everyone loves. and the "they have it comming to them" comment has already been clarified.

JC 2K3

To summerise:

-Gay people being bullied because of the fact they are gay is wrong, but only as wrong as anyone being bullied for any reason.
-Attention whores(gay or not) who are bullied have to place a degree of blame on themselves, although the fact they are bullied is wrong.

I don't know why there is a connection between being gay and being an attention whore, but gay young people tend to be attention whores quite frequently. Would anyone agree that gay culture's affect on today's gay youth of average intelligence promotes attention seeking and possibly shoving one's sexuality in the faces of others?

Boston

No there isn't. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe you only notice the ones that stand out? One in ten people are/will be gay in any given situation, even higher in a group of mostly males. How many time are you in groups larger then ten? How many people work in your Job, go to your school? Live in your neighbourhood, and how many of them do you consider to be shoving it in your face?

JC 2K3

LiouVille wrote:

No there isn't. Have you ever stopped to think that maybe you only notice the ones that stand out? One in ten people are/will be gay in any given situation, even higher in a group of mostly males. How many time are you in groups larger then ten? How many people work in your Job, go to your school? Live in your neighbourhood, and how many of them do you consider to be shoving it in your face?

Two out of four gays I know and many of their friends I don't know act similarly.

Maybe I'm just hanging around a bunch of idiots.....

abetarrush

Ye know what LiouVille, yes, yer right, i agree, whatever........

I'm jus gonna agree to disagree, cos I'm sick of listenin to the nonsense ur comin out with

I'd get better answers and understanding from a shoe

Boston

JC 2K3 wrote:

Two out of four gays I know and many of their friends I don't know act similarly.

Maybe I'm just hanging around a bunch of idiots.....

One would wonder why you hang around with people you don't like. But beside that, point stands. The loud ones always stand out in any groud.

Abe I'd dearing love to show you the error of your ways, but alas, I fear it's to late.

JC 2K3

LiouVille wrote:

One would wonder why you hang around with people you don't like. But beside that, point stands. The loud ones always stand out in any groud.

Put simply, I like everyone in my group of friends apart from one retarded, loud idiot who most of the others don't seem to mind(for various reasons, childhood friends, empathy for his sexuality, indifference etc.) . My group of friends is complicated and unrelated, however.

Loud ones do stand out though. I'll retract my statement about gays and attention whores being related for now. It's irrelevent anyway.

abetarrush

LiouVille wrote:

One would wonder why you hang around with people you don't like. But beside that, point stands. The loud ones always stand out in any groud.

Abe I'd dearing love to show you the error of your ways, but alas, I fear it's to late.

Who said Im wrong?

Yer the one who can't read

Twinkle-star15

Why is it only gay guys who 'shove it in your face'?? I get really pissed off when I see guys tying to be all 50cent and shouting 'pussy' and 'suck on this bitch', or those INCREDIBLY annoying songs about 'lollipops'. THAT IS ALSO UNACCEBTABLE BEHAVIOUR!!! There is a place for things like that- it's called a bedroom. Just because they're in the majority doesn't make it any less wrong.

Sorry, just a pet hate of mine .