Islamist Voilence in the wake of Pope Benedict's remarks.

SeanW

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1690071&issue_id=14656

Nun killed as the Pope fails to calm Muslims

Benedict 'apology' falls short Several churches firebombed

A NUN was killed by gunmen and churches were firebombed in an apparent escalation of violence over the Pope's speech about Islam last week.

Sister Leonella Sgorbati (65) was shot four times in the back by two men at the front of a hospital in the Somali capital Mogadishu.

Her bodyguard was also killed. The Vatican said it hoped the "horrible tragedy" was an isolated incident.

The killing and attacks on Christian churches in the West Bank came after Benedict XVI expressed deep regret yesterday at the furious reaction to his remarks on Islam and holy war.

He said the text he quoted last week did not reflect his personal opinion.

Critically, the head of the world's 1.1 billion Roman Catholics stopped short of the full apology or retraction demanded by some Muslims. Most still insisted his speech portrayed Islam as tainted by violence.

Sheikh Mukhtar Robow, deputy head of security at the Islamic Courts in Somalia, which control the capital, said there was a "concrete possibility" the murder of Sister Leonella was "a reprisal for the Pope's remarks on Islam". In his Angelus address - his first public appearance since the furore broke out - he said he was sorry that a passage in his address at Regensburg last week, quoting from a 14th century Byzantine emperor, had been construed as "offensive to the sensibilities of Muslims".

"These words were in fact a quotation from a medieval text which do not in any way express my personal thought," he said.

"I hope that this serves to placate souls and to clarify the true meaning of my address, which in its totality was and is an invitation to frank and sincere dialogue, with great mutual respect."

His remarks led to angry complaints and demands that the Pope's scheduled trip to Turkey in November should be cancelled.

Mehmet Aydin, the Turkish Minister of State, said that the Pope seemed to be saying he was sorry for the outrage but not necessarily the remarks themselves. "You either have to say 'I'm sorry' in a proper way or not say it at all," he said. "Are you sorry for saying such a thing or because of its consequences?"

Seven churches in the West Bank and Gaza were set on fire. Religious seminaries closed down in protest in Iran.

A leading cleric told students at a mosque in the city of Qom the remarks were inflammatory. The 'Tehran Times' said the remarks were "code words for the start of a new Crusade".

Morocco recalled its ambassador to the Vatican and there were further street protests by Muslims in Pakistan, India and Turkey.

An Iraqi insurgent group, the Mujahidin Army, threatened a suicide bomb attack against the Vatican.

Addressed to "the dogs of Rome" it said: "Our minds will not rest until we shake your thrones and break your crosses in your home."

But Muhammad Abdul Bari, of the Muslim Council of Britain, said: "It's certainly a welcome step that the Pope recognises the hurt his speech caused."

Richard Owen

It seems to me that if Pope Benedict was trying to say something by quoting the Byzantine Emperor, he has done so quite well. Because it seems to be a recurring theme with Islamic fundamentalism that when anyone calls Islam violent, the funamentalists go around killing people and bombing things, which more or less proves the point of what the original author said.

Like, Salman Rushdie, Theo Van Gogh, the Danish cartoonist and now Pope Benedict's quote of a 14th century emperor.

A few things come to mind:

1st: So somoene was offended. Big fat hairy deal. People get offended by things that are said but noone dies (unless the offendee is an Islamofascist). Why is Islamic sensitivity so important above all others that fundamentalist behaviour can be justified by anyone?
2nd: What does the violent response to ... accusations of violence, actually say?
3rd: So People have been accusing Islam and the Prophet Mohammed of violence and "evil and inhuman things" since the 14th century? Does that mean that Islamist violence isn't a new phenomenom?

Why, like so many times before, has the situation been blown so wildly far out of proportion (the Pope clearly stated that those views of the quoted are not his own) and why do the leaders of Islam rarely condemn the violence, murder and rampage that are now occurring?

It seems to me that those of us who value our Western freedoms need to stop treating Islamofascists with kid gloves and PC "let's not offend anyone ever" mentality. I believe this is as dangerous as the Islamofascists themselves. Although I have nothing against Islam as religion, or those who practice it peacefully, I believe it should be tolerated by our societies only in as much as it can be a religion of peace whos practicioners do not violate the rights of others including non-believers, and keep their religion a personal or family matter.

Mick86

I couldn't have said it better myself. Although I think you're going to geta rap on the knuckles for mentioning the Islamofascist thing. People are sensitive and caring about that sort of stuff here.

As for the murder of the nun, that can obviously be explained away by the activities of the Israelis in the West Bank and Gaza. 10 out of 10 to the Somalis though. Unlike their Palestinian brothers, who burnt down an Anglican Church in retaliation for the Pope's remarks, the Somalis actually got a Kosher Papist.

This whole thing would make you nostalgic for old John Paul II. Despite having a man named Mohommad trying to kill him, JP never said a word against Islam. He concentrated on annoying homosexuals and abortionists and so on. Takes a German to piss off the whole world. Maybe it's a cunning plan to get us all back to the Church. When teh Muslim barbarians are at the gates of Rome it's time for all good Fenians to take up the cross and the sword.

Sesshoumaru

I actually think it was the Israeli intelligence unit Mossad that set the pope up to say those things about Islam. Its clearly an ebil zionist-american plot to defame Islam

Mick86

Sesshoumaru wrote:

I actually think it was the Israeli intelligence unit Mossad that set the pope up to say those things about Islam. Its clearly an ebil zionist-american plot to defame Islam

Obviously. Who would suspect a German Pope and former Nazi of being an agent of Zionist Imperialism. Even Baldrick couldn't come up with something as cunning as that.:D

Sand

The riots arson attacks and murders are being orchestrated by radical islamic groups which need to vindicate their world view that Islam is under attack and they need to fight back [i.e. burn down christian churches and murder nuns, for starters]. However 99% of Muslims couldnt care less about what the Pope said. They might rightfully resent being lumped in with the loonies who are shooting people over it.

Look at the sort of groups that are being quoted for reaction - the Muslim Brotherhood? Theyre hardcore fundamentalists who have produced thinkers like Qtub, who practically defined the modern jihadist thought that the likes of Bin Laden adheres to. If youre looking for a reasonable even handed perspective on the Popes remarks from a Muslim viewpoint, then the Muslim Brotherhood are not going to be the ones to help.

That violently inclined radicals react violently or orchestrate violence isnt a huge surprise. Its what they do. If the Popes remarks have been blown out of proportion its because these guys are the ones stirring it. They dont particularly rate him to start with so any chance they get to "confirm" hes the SOB they say he is theyll take.

One way or the other, people cant really afford to alienate Muslims because if anyones going to be able to idealogically undermine violent radicalism its Muslim thinkers, such as the Yemeni iman who challanged jihadist prisoners to defend their views using the koran and won the resulting debate, with the prisoners swearing on the koran that they would not engage in violence again.

Groups like the Muslim brotherhood are waging a idealogical campaign to control the islamic world, and theyre going to take advantage of every opportunity to portray Europe and the US as crusading christendom of the 13th century...

spanner

Sand wrote:

The riots arson attacks and murders are being orchestrated by radical islamic groups which need to vindicate their world view that Islam is under attack and they need to fight back [i.e. burn down christian churches and murder nuns, for starters]. However 99% of Muslims couldnt care less about what the Pope said. They might rightfully resent being lumped in with the loonies who are shooting people over it.

Look at the sort of groups that are being quoted for reaction - the Muslim Brotherhood? Theyre hardcore fundamentalists who have produced thinkers like Qtub, who practically defined the modern jihadist thought that the likes of Bin Laden adheres to. If youre looking for a reasonable even handed perspective on the Popes remarks from a Muslim viewpoint, then the Muslim Brotherhood are not going to be the ones to help.

That violently inclined radicals react violently or orchestrate violence isnt a huge surprise. Its what they do. If the Popes remarks have been blown out of proportion its because these guys are the ones stirring it. They dont particularly rate him to start with so any chance they get to "confirm" hes the SOB they say he is theyll take.

One way or the other, people cant really afford to alienate Muslims because if anyones going to be able to idealogically undermine violent radicalism its Muslim thinkers, such as the Yemeni iman who challanged jihadist prisoners to defend their views using the koran and won the resulting debate, with the prisoners swearing on the koran that they would not engage in violence again.

Groups like the Muslim brotherhood are waging a idealogical campaign to control the islamic world, and theyre going to take advantage of every opportunity to portray Europe and the US as crusading christendom of the 13th century...

yes I agree with you,

we have to make sure that we divide extremists from the rest of the muslim world not divide the muslim world from the west not only for their benefit but for ours. look what happened when they foiled the recent plot to blow up the planes, pakistani intelligence was vital in foiling the plot. That is were the war on terror will be won not on the streets of bagdad, by joining together with decent muslims.

Off the point slightly, the Pope should have known better to make a comment like that, it was stupid however he does not have blood on his hands, what he said were a few ill chosen words and should in no way excuse what has happened, if people in the west ran around killing muslims in the west everytime A muslim religous leader said something similar it would be very bloody indeed

lostexpectation

oh yes use examples of somalias and palestine to continue the popes message... charming there still part of the world but they arn't really 'normal places'. there are tinder boxes where anything will set em off.

freddyfreeload

I've just read the full text of the Pope's speech (phew!) and it seems, ironically, that his intent was to establish a platform for dialogue with Islam.

In this light he should perhaps have chosen his passage a bit more carefully. Quoting a greek Christian (who spent most of his life at odds with the Ottomans) describing Mohammed as a bringer of things "evil and inhuman" seems at odds with his aims. It's generally not wise to dis the other side if you want to parley.

Clearly though there is no excuse for the kind of violence his speech has unleashed.

@ Sand. I agree with you that this issue has been jumped on by extremists as fuel for their fire, but I'd disaggree with your suggestion that 99% of muslims don't care. I think many ordinary peaceful Muslims (I'm recalling a recent trip to the UAE) are completely non-plussed by what they see as ongoing insults aimed at their faith by the west. Many genuinely feel under attack, and threatened.

They may have no reason to be, but I think many do feel this way. Similarly I think many of us in Western society feel threatened even by mainstream, moderate Islam. Many people recoil at simple things like the Hijab, seeing it as an offence to western liberal values, when actually it's nothing of the sort.

@SeanW: You should perhaps also remember that the West/Christianity is not immune to religious intolerance or the capacity to spread religion by the sword. Something the Pope should perhaps have remembered when making his speech the other day.

Examples of the latter range from the Crusades to the European Christianisation of the new world and Africa, right up to George Dubya's current Crusade (he says God told him to do it).

Examples of the former include the furore caused by The Last Temptation of Christ, which (rather like the Satanic Verses) was denounced by Church leaders (Catholic and Protestant) who had never seen it. This led in one instance to a cinema being burned down in Paris that injured about a dozen and killed one person. Not on the same scale I know, but very similar in quality. And surely you haven't forgotten the sectarian rioting of Northern Ireland, Garvaghy Road and all that?

But please don't think I'm making excuses for Islamic extremism. I'm not. My critisism is even handed. Both sides have blood on their hands. Both religions have practiced Holy War. Both hold to religious texts that exalt the use of violence. Both have their modern day fundamentalists. Both misunderstand and are suspicious of the other.

What I do advocate, is that those who genuinely want peaceful coexistence with Islam, start trying to see things from both sides. Equally, this responsiblity falls to moderate voices within Islam as well, which I believe are there and doing just that.

Sean W wrote:

It seems to me that those of us who value our Western freedoms need to stop treating Islamofascists with kid gloves and PC "let's not offend anyone ever" mentality.

Actually, I don't think we should be thinking at all of the people you term Islamofacists. The people I think we should be worried about offending are the ordinary, peaceful, moderate Muslims who make up the bulk of Islam and deserve the same respect as ordinary peaceful moderate people the world over.

I'd describe myself as a devout atheist, and I hold pretty much all religious tenets and practices of all faiths to be quite ridiculous, but I would never go out of my way to directly offend anyone's faith by ridiculing it. And if I do offend unintentionally, I'm quick with an unconditional apology. To my mind, this business of offensive cartoons and speeches has less to do with freedom and democracy than simple good manners.

ff

spooiirt!!

freddyfreeload wrote:

You should perhaps also remember that the West/Christianity is not immune to religious intolerance or the capacity to spread religion by the sword. Something the Pope should perhaps have remembered when making his speech the other day.

Examples of the latter range from the Crusades

What caused the Crusades? I was always under the impression it was because Constantinople, which had been Christian for a very long time was attacked by Muslims, and the west started the crusades to get the land back for Christianity.

Or was it really just so we could steal their oil? sorry

DadaKopf

Sand wrote:

The riots arson attacks and murders are being orchestrated by radical islamic groups which need to vindicate their world view that Islam is under attack and they need to fight back [i.e. burn down christian churches and murder nuns, for starters]. However 99% of Muslims couldnt care less about what the Pope said. They might rightfully resent being lumped in with the loonies who are shooting people over it.

Definitely. And the Western media really has to wake up and come to grips with the lethal consequences of its biased, disinformative, fetishistic coverage. When all is said and done, it's the politicians and the mainstream media giving way too much power to marginal groups that 'emboldens' 'crayzies' to commit atrocities (Americans included).

It's like most poor people in Ireland feeling disgruntled about pretty normal, fair enough stuff, but the media giving all the airtime and column inches to Sinn Féin and Stormfront. How realistic is that? What effect would that have?

Anyway...

I don't buy the Pope's excuse. "Oops, sorry, I didn't mean what I said, I was quoting what someone else said." Hold on, you chose to quote him. You chose to quote that passage. You meant something by it! So he can apologise for being an idiot on count number one.

I also think it's an idiot. Unlike his predecessor, he's an old coot who doesn't understand the times we live in. He doesn't understand the reach of the global media - how messages are compressed into soundbites and transmitted simultaneously around the world. Patently, he and his jaunty advisors are unprepared for the world. Ratzinger never had to struggle with Communism to have to work out how the media can be a weapon against tyranny. Wojtila knew it all too well, and so he knew how to use the spectral reach of the media to his, and the Roman Catholic Church's, and maybe humanity's advantage.

So, Ratzinger = racist idiot.

freddyfreeload

spooiirt!! wrote:

What caused the Crusades? I was always under the impression it was because Constantinople, which had been Christian for a very long time was attacked by Muslims, and the west started the crusades to get the land back for Christianity.

Not Constantinople, I think. That came much later. The first crusade was begun under the guise of supporting the Byzantine Empire against the Seljuk Turks, but also had a lot to do with giving Christian knights a useful outlet for all their bottled up violence during a time of peace.

The point to note is that Turkish expansionism at the time was primarily a product of infighting between rival leaders within the Seljuk Empire, some of whom allied with the crusaders to gain advantage. The first eight Crusades, on the other hand were sanctioned by the Pope and were pure Holy War.

ff

RedPlanet

It's not the first time Ratzinger has offended other religions.
He belittled Jewish victims of the Holocaust too.
Good rant about him here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1875791,00.html

Mick86

Sand wrote:

However 99% of Muslims couldnt care less about what the Pope said. They might rightfully resent being lumped in with the loonies who are shooting people over it.

The 900 million non-Loony Muslims are being very quiet, don’t you think.

Sand wrote:

Look at the sort of groups that are being quoted for reaction - the Muslim Brotherhood? Theyre hardcore fundamentalists who have produced thinkers like Qtub, who practically defined the modern jihadist thought that the likes of Bin Laden adheres to...

Granted but Muslims in general have a remarkable propensity to be offended at virtually anything. There were protests against the Pope all over the Muslim world last week. Can every single event have been organized by radical Islamists? Are Muslims so easily led by the nose? Most Irish people don’t take the Immigration Control Platform seriously. Nor the likes of Stormfront or the BNP. Would you have such a facile explanation if some Catholic nutters decide to burn a Mosque next Friday?

Sand wrote:

One way or the other, people cant really afford to alienate Muslims because if anyones going to be able to idealogically undermine violent radicalism its Muslim thinkers, such as the Yemeni iman who challanged jihadist prisoners to defend their views using the koran and won the resulting debate, with the prisoners swearing on the koran that they would not engage in violence again...

Ha ha ha. Forget it. Muslim pacifists will have the same effect on Islamic violence that the Peace Campaigners had on IRA violence in the 70s. Zero.

lostexpectation wrote:

oh yes use examples of somalias and palestine to continue the popes message... charming there still part of the world but they arn't really 'normal places'. there are tinder boxes where anything will set em off...

Nowhere in the Islamic world is normal and it’s all a tinderbox. One of the chief critics of the Pope is the Turkish Foreign Minister, a man whose government has aspirations of joining the EU. Normal enough for you?

freddyfreeload wrote:

It's generally not wise to dis the other side if you want to parley.

Benedict can’t help it. He has no respect for heretics. And of course to a Catholic that’s just what Muslims are.

freddyfreeload wrote:

I think many ordinary peaceful Muslims (I'm recalling a recent trip to the UAE) are completely non-plussed by what they see as ongoing insults aimed at their faith by the west. Many genuinely feel under attack, and threatened.

Maybe they should read the newspapers. Watch a bit of television. Are they aware that their co-religionists launched a war on the west in the name of Islam?

freddyfreeload wrote:

Similarly I think many of us in Western society feel threatened even by mainstream, moderate Islam. Many people recoil at simple things like the Hijab, seeing it as an offence to western liberal values, when actually it's nothing of the sort.

The hijab is an offence to western liberal values, not of itself because it’s just a headscarf. If a woman choses to wear one that’s her business. It’s an offence because it’s use is imposed by patriarchal, pre-medieval religious thought. The same thought that executes adulterous women and homosexuals.

freddyfreeload wrote:

Examples of the former include the furore caused by The Last Temptation of Christ, which (rather like the Satanic Verses) was denounced by Church leaders (Catholic and Protestant) who had never seen it.

Did the Pope order the murder of Nikos Kazantzakis?

freddyfreeload wrote:

But please don't think I'm making excuses for Islamic extremism. I'm not.

You’re not doing a very good job there, Fred.

freddyfreeload wrote:

What I do advocate, is that those who genuinely want peaceful coexistence with Islam, start trying to see things from both sides. Equally, this responsiblity falls to moderate voices within Islam as well, which I believe are there and doing just that.

You’ll still be believing that when the Islamic Fundamentalists put you on the cattle car for where ever their death camp will be.

DadaKopf wrote:

Definitely. And the Western media really has to wake up and come to grips with the lethal consequences of its biased, disinformative, fetishistic coverage. When all is said and done, it's the politicians and the mainstream media giving way too much power to marginal groups that 'emboldens' 'crayzies' to commit atrocities (Americans included) .

A novel departure. It’s no longer the fault of Israelis it’s the fault of Sky News. Should we declare a fatwah on Rupert Murdoch?

DadaKopf wrote:

I don't buy the Pope's excuse. "Oops, sorry, I didn't mean what I said, I was quoting what someone else said." Hold on, you chose to quote him. You chose to quote that passage. You meant something by it! So he can apologise for being an idiot on count number one.

Nor do I, no more than I buy the Ahmadinejad Defence. I mean the Pope’s remarks have been translated from Greek (or Latin) to German to English/Arabic/whatever you’re having yourself. In fact the Pope quite rightly pointed out that Islam is a violent creed. The fact that he himself is the leader of a violent creed does not take from or excuse that fact. No apology necessary, Islam will just have to deal with the criticism like grown-ups.

DadaKopf wrote:

I also think it's an idiot. Unlike his predecessor, he's an old coot who doesn't understand the times we live in. He doesn't understand the reach of the global media - how messages are compressed into soundbites and transmitted simultaneously around the world. Patently, he and his jaunty advisors are unprepared for the world. Ratzinger never had to struggle with Communism to have to work out how the media can be a weapon against tyranny. Wojtila knew it all too well, and so he knew how to use the spectral reach of the media to his, and the Roman Catholic Church's, and maybe humanity's advantage. .

The Holy Roman Catholic Church knows all about propaganda. It invented it.

DadaKopf wrote:

So, Ratzinger = racist idiot.

Or realist.

RedPlanet wrote:

It's not the first time Ratzinger has offended other religions.
He belittled Jewish victims of the Holocaust too.
Good rant about him here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/pope/story/0,,1875791,00.html

The Guardian ranting aboutthe Pope. Never.

As for the Jews, they murdered Christ you know.

Benedict XVI

Hi all,
Really glad I pi**ed of so many Muslims.
You lot have shown your true colors with your reaction to this one.
If it starts another ‘crusade’ I am all for it, this time I hope we Christians win.

oscarBravo

Ha ha. Benedict XVI banned for a week for trolling. Mick86, you'll be following in his footsteps shortly if you don't stop trolling.

freddyfreeload

I think I'll ignore the rhetorical nonsense and address the one important issue...

Mick86 wrote:

The hijab is an offence to western liberal values, not of itself because it’s just a headscarf. If a woman choses to wear one that’s her business. It’s an offence because it’s use is imposed by patriarchal, pre-medieval religious thought. The same thought that executes adulterous women and homosexuals.

Why I decided to wear the veil

Why I Wear the Hijab

As far as I know (though I could be wrong) the Hijab is only enforced in Iran and Saudi Arabia. Ironic that one of those is currently one of the West's most wanted, while the other is one of its most favoured.

ff

Sgt. Sensible

DadaKopf wrote:

I don't buy the Pope's excuse. "Oops, sorry, I didn't mean what I said, I was quoting what someone else said." Hold on, you chose to quote him. You chose to quote that passage. You meant something by it! So he can apologise for being an idiot on count number one.

I also think it's an idiot. Unlike his predecessor, he's an old coot who doesn't understand the times we live in. He doesn't understand the reach of the global media - how messages are compressed into soundbites and transmitted simultaneously around the world. Patently, he and his jaunty advisors are unprepared for the world. Ratzinger never had to struggle with Communism to have to work out how the media can be a weapon against tyranny. Wojtila knew it all too well, and so he knew how to use the spectral reach of the media to his, and the Roman Catholic Church's, and maybe humanity's advantage.

So, Ratzinger = racist idiot.

It looked like it was designed deliberately provocative to me, especially considering the recent dismissal of Archbishop Fitzgerald.

One of the first signs of a toughening of the Vatican's stance came with the removal from office of Archbishop Michael Fitzgerald.

The British-born cleric ran a Vatican department that promoted dialogue with other religions. A distinguished scholar on Arab affairs, he was an acknowledged expert on the Islamic world.

The decision by Benedict XVI to remove him from his post, and send him to Egypt as papal nuncio, was widely seen as a demotion.

Some wondered about the wisdom of the move.

Father Thomas Reese, a Jesuit scholar and an authority on the workings of the Vatican, told the BBC news website of his concerns: "The Pope's worst decision so far has been the exiling of Archbishop Fitzgerald," he said in an interview in April this year.

"He was the smartest guy in the Vatican on relations with Muslims. You don't exile someone like that, you listen to them.

"If the Vatican says something dumb about Muslims, people will die in parts of Africa and churches will be burned in Indonesia, let alone what happens in the Middle East.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/5352404.stm

spooiirt!!

freddyfreeload wrote:

As far as I know (though I could be wrong) the Hijab is only enforced in Iran and Saudi Arabia.

ff

The Hijab is enforced here in Germany by the fathers of many muslim families. I know a med student who puts on her Hijab before she goes to college (where she takes it off), and on again when she comes home. Her parents think she works as a cleaning lady, she has to lie to them because they couldnt bear the thought of the daughter going to uni when the brothers are unemployed or in prison...
Oh and in the last 10 years theres been around 50 muslim women killed in Germany for disobeying their husbands/fathers, having affairs with German men and a whole load of other dispicable things. In the latest case a man shot his sister 3 times in the head. The families always get the youngest son to do the killing because German courts are extremely liniant with young criminals.

Sesshoumaru

spooiirt!! wrote:

The Hijab is enforced here in Germany by the fathers of many muslim families. I know a med student who puts on her Hijab before she goes to college (where she takes it off), and on again when she comes home. Her parents think she works as a cleaning lady, she has to lie to them because they couldnt bear the thought of the daughter going to uni when the brothers are unemployed or in prison...
Oh and in the last 10 years theres been around 50 muslim women killed in Germany for disobeying their husbands/fathers, having affairs with German men and a whole load of other dispicable things. In the latest case a man shot his sister 3 times in the head. The families always get the youngest son to do the killing because German courts are extremely liniant with young criminals.

Its like having a country within a country.

Mick86

freddyfreeload wrote:

I think I'll ignore the rhetorical nonsense and address the one important issue...

IF A WOMAN CHOSES TO WEAR ONE HERSELF THAT'S HER BUSINESS

ISAW

Mick86 wrote:

IF A WOMAN CHOSES TO WEAR ONE HERSELF THAT'S HER BUSINESS

Which suggests if a woman choses NOT to wear one it is someone elses business to tell her that she should. You see you seem to be saying "she should be allowed to do as she wants" but when one examines it what "she wants" means wearing a veil. what if "what she wants" means NOT wearing a veil?

freddyfreeload

spooiirt!! wrote:

The Hijab is enforced here in Germany by the fathers of many muslim families. I know a med student who puts on her Hijab before she goes to college (where she takes it off), and on again when she comes home. Her parents think she works as a cleaning lady, she has to lie to them because they couldnt bear the thought of the daughter going to uni when the brothers are unemployed or in prison...

Precisely the kind of dogma that has always turned my stomach. Do you believe that only Islamic parents are guilty of it though?

BTW is your freind Turkish?

Oh and in the last 10 years theres been around 50 muslim women killed in Germany for disobeying their husbands/fathers, having affairs with German men and a whole load of other dispicable things.

I know, the whole "honor" killing thing is truly sickening. But as you're probably aware, it has much more to do with archaic patriarchal codes than it does with religion.

Just out of interest, do you know how many non-muslim women have been murdered by family members during the same period in Germany? Unfortunately the media tend to focus on things like honor killings (for various reasons) while ignoring the bigger picture.

Around the world, roughly 70% of all women murder victims are killed by their husbands, partners or other male relatives. This is the bigger picture, and white Western European men should not be allowed to escape it any more than those guilty of honour killings.

In Ireland, for example, 50% of all women murder victims ('96 - '04) were killed by either their current or ex-partner. I'm aware of one incident where the victim and her murderer were, I think, Chinese, but I can't think of any Muslim cases.

I can't find any figures for "other family members", but as all female murder victims in Ireland since 1996 were killed by men, I imagine there's a good proportion of fathers and brothers in their too.

ff

neolxs

What I want to know is

If all the Muslim people of the world feel offended by the popes words and demand a apology,

Shouldnt we as Christians be demanding a apology for all the Muslim attacks on the pope. Ive seen images of him burnt in the streets, A nun Killed as mentioned in the origional post.

It seems to me Most Muslims seem to have very thin skin when it comes to there faith or race. Where Christians have had to like it or lump it for years.

What the pope said is Free Speech.

If people are offended So What? thats life, people of every race and religion are offended everyday but we all dont go off on our own personal adgenda demanding apologies etc.

freddyfreeload

neolxs wrote:

If people are offended So What? thats life, people of every race and religion are offended everyday but we all dont go off on our own personal adgenda demanding apologies etc.

Er... Not quite.

• Ian Paisley calling the Pope the Anti-Christ and a "Red Hatted Weasel."
• Mary McAleese's Holocaust Commemoration Day speech.
• Mahmoud Ahmejinedad's anti-Semitism.
• The UK Hindu - Royal Mail stamp thing.
• John Kerry's comments about Sikh terrorism on C-Span.
• Oh yeah, and the Pope's aide Archbishop, Rev Angelo Amato, calling for a Boycott of the Da Vinci Code.

Face it... Muslims, Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Bhuddists, and all the rest are offended by things each other say all the time and are constantly demanding apologies.

If you really believe in freedom of speech you must believe in everyone's right to use it, which includes complaining, and also includes when people you don't agree with use it to say things you don't like. Otherwise it's no freedom at all.

ff

neolxs

freddyfreeload wrote:

Er... Not quite.

• Ian Paisley calling the Pope the Anti-Christ and a "Red Hatted Weasel."
• Mary McAleese's Holocaust Commemoration Day speech.
• Mahmoud Ahmejinedad's anti-Semitism.
• The UK Hindu - Royal Mail stamp thing.
• John Kerry's comments about Sikh terrorism on C-Span.
• Oh yeah, and the Pope's aide Archbishop, Rev Angelo Amato, calling for a Boycott of the Da Vinci Code.

Face it... Muslims, Christians, Jews, Sikhs, Bhuddists, and all the rest are offended by things each other say all the time and are constantly demanding apologies.

If you really believe in freedom of speech you must believe in everyone's right to use it, which includes complaining, and also includes when people you don't agree with use it to say things you don't like. Otherwise it's no freedom at all.

ff

Im sorry I dont remeber Catholics Burning Images of Ian Paisely or Church of England followers burning images of Mary In the streets! And I dont remember Christians flying planes into buildings!

Face it Muslims cant hack free Speech or rights for both sexes.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

christians do abuse children though

freddyfreeload

neolxs wrote:

Im sorry I dont remeber Catholics Burning Images of Ian Paisely or Church of England followers burning images of Mary In the streets! And I dont remember Christians flying planes into buildings!

Ahh... the old, veering wildly off your own point, ploy. And about as irrelevant to a discussion on free speech as me saying: "I don't remember any Muslims burning effigies of Donald Duck."

neolxs wrote:

Face it Muslims cant hack free Speech.

Neither, it seems, can you. As I said, your freedom of speech and Pope Benedict's, is contingent on the right of those you don't like voicing opinions you cannot stomach. That's what it means.

neolx wrote:

or rights for both sexes

Do you mean all Muslims or just some?

And what about some/all Christians? All gender inequality is wrong, not just Muslim gender inequality.

ff

neolxs

Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
Im sorry I dont remeber Catholics Burning Images of Ian Paisely or Church of England followers burning images of Mary In the streets! And I dont remember Christians flying planes into buildings!

Ahh... the old, veering wildly off your own point, ploy. And about as irrelevant to a discussion on free speech as me saying: "I don't remember any Muslims burning effigies of Donald Duck."

Very True, I dont remember any Muslim burning Images of Donald Duck, But I did see a nun killed the other day through Free Speech of the pope. I did see Muslims flying planes into buildings, I did see Muslims in there capitals burning Danish Flags over Cartoons, and images of the pope over what he was refereing too some hundreds of years ago. But What I dont see if any Christians demanding that Muslims should apologise!


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolxs
Face it Muslims cant hack free Speech.

Neither, it seems, can you. As I said, your freedom of speech and Pope Benedict's, is contingent on the right of those you don't like voicing opinions you cannot stomach. That's what it means.

Free Speech is being able to say something that can or may offend wothout the threat of Violence or discrimination being carried out against you. Everyday I see Muslim states take that right away from there own citizens as well as crying out Racism or hate against the western world for any Christian, Jewish person using there right of Free Speech. But even Salmon Rushdie found out that in the Muslim world there is no such right as Free Speech.


Quote:
Originally Posted by neolx
or rights for both sexes

Do you mean all Muslims or just some?

And what about some/all Christians? All gender inequality is wrong, not just Muslim gender inequality.

ff

I alaways see the Muslim Faith cover up women in Burkas`s in the name of religion, I dont see any devout muslim business women, or Heads of state or Members of goverment. Can the same be said of Christian Countries?


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freddyfreeload

Yeah, you really need to try hard to separate completely different issues in your head. Lumping them all in together in empassioned rhetoric is whooly thinking of the worst kind.

Some Muslims demanded an apology - which they had a perfect right to do - free speech and all that. Indeed many moderate Muslim leaders have already accepted the Pope's baffling and weak explaination.

Other Muslims are rioting over it - which they have no right doing at all. However, this sort of behaviour, though unacceptable, is not exlusive to Islam.

And a completely different bunch did 911. They have nothing to do with a debate about whether ordinary Muslims have a right to object to the Pope's speech.

neolxs wrote:

But I did see a nun killed the other day through Free Speech of the pope.

No you didn't. You saw a Nun who'd been shot by a criminal, doing a criminal act. The people who have demanded an apology have used their right to free speech. The man who shot the Nun is a murderer who used a gun. Different things. Gun bad. Words good.

You should probably start trying to work out these distinctions for yourself rather than conflating the behaviour of one small segment of a massive and non-homogenous society with that of the whole. This is the same sort of tautology that says: all eagles eat meat, all eagles are birds, therefore all birds eat meat.

Many of us found the Unionist's Love Ulster Parade offensive, and some of us expressed this offence publicly, saying that the organisers should be ashamed of themselves and should not have staged such an inflamatory parade. But we didn't all riot because of it. And those of us who didn't would not want to be tarred with the same brush as those who did. And nor should we. Same goes for the spectrum of reaction to the Pope's speech.

neolxs wrote:

I did see Muslims flying planes into buildings, I did see Muslims in there capitals burning Danish Flags over Cartoons, and images of the pope over what he was refereing too some hundreds of years ago. But What I dont see if any Christians demanding that Muslims should apologise!

Really? Maybe you should pay a little more attention to the news media. I'm constantly seeing people in the US, UK, Ireland, France and beyond complaining and expressing offence about the behaviour of Muslim's both moderate and extreme. They range from demands for apologies from for inflamatory remarks to voicing distaste for the hijab and other simple customs. And all are valid expressions of free speech.

Free Speech is being able to say something that can or may offend wothout the threat of Violence or discrimination being carried out against you.

If you really believe in this, it follows that you should not discriminate against the right of Muslim people to express their offence at the Pope's words.

neolxs wrote:

Everyday I see Muslim states take that right away from there own citizens as well as crying out Racism or hate against the western world for any Christian, Jewish person using there right of Free Speech.

Well, you're conflating again, but I get your point. However, this is the price of enlightenment. In the West, we cherish the value of free speech and hold it dear. And we dislike it when certain countries deny their citizens this right. Which is precisely why we should not. Either you believe in freedom of speech for all, or you don't really believe in it at all.

neolxs wrote:

I alaways see the Muslim Faith cover up women in Burkas`s in the name of religion, I dont see any devout muslim business women, or Heads of state or Members of goverment. Can the same be said of Christian Countries?

A Muslim would claim you don't see Muslim prostitutes or pornstars or rape of women like in the West. But like your comments, that would just be more relativist clap-trap.

The point is simple. Islam may well be guilty of gender inequality. But as a Western (I'm assuming) man, living in a democracy, and who believes (again I'm assuming) in gender equality, your prime concern should rectifying the gender inequalities here. Just as progressive Muslims are primarily concerned with affecting change in their own societies.

Perhaps if we spent less time criticising Islam, and more time putting our own house in order, we might find the moderates within Islam wanting to emulate our societies.

The thing I find most incredible is how we've forgotten the simple truth that you cannot force any population to change its religious or cultural ways, and that the harder you push, the harder they push back. We should know, we kept pushing back for 800 years.

ff

ButcherOfNog

neolxs wrote:

It seems to me Most Muslims seem to have very thin skin when it comes to there faith or race.

Most Muslims are not out killing nuns, or burning churches. If they were, there'd be no nuns or churches left. Just because the fundamentalists shout the loudest does not mean they represent the majority.

RedPlanet

Here's some Christian violence:
http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060923/APN/609231624
Fortunately nobody was killed, not for lack of trying mind, rather i suspect they just lacked the courage to leave the safety of their car.
(in fairness, I am presuming it was a drive-by)

I doubt the mainstream media will be running this story however.