Secular schools

Tim Robbins

Does anybody have information on secular schools in Dublin?
i.e. schools that are not catholic, protestant, christian, muslim etc.
Pretty much no religion.

Zombrex

Tim Robbins wrote:

Does anybody have information on secular schools in Dublin?
i.e. schools that are not catholic, protestant, christian, muslim etc.
Pretty much no religion.

Any of the Educate Together schools, such as the "School Project" schools (Dalkey School Project, Bray School Project, Limerick School Project etc) are multi-demoninational (the PC way of saying non-demoninational )

http://www.educatetogether.ie
http://www.educatetogether.ie/5_schools/listofschools_county.html

UU

As for secondary education......

Well, apparantly all Community Schools and Comprehensive Schools are supposed to be non-denominational but of course that is not always so. I attended Ballinteer Community School which was still endeavouring to clutch onto the ever declining Catholic ethos despite the influx of foreign students into the school.

Of course, Vocational Schools are non-denominational as they run by the VEC.

Still, many ordinary secondary schools are run by the Department of Education but are still owned by the clergy unfortunately. Any new schools that are being built are secular but the government needs to kick the Church's asses out of our state education system and into a few private schools.

Dades

TBH I'd be more concerned about the standard of education, student demograph, etc. You as a parent will always have the real say in the child's spiritual education.

If the school that will give your child the best chance is a secular one - then all the better.

lostexpectation

Diarmuid Martin gave speech yesterday, in the Irish time it mentions that if and when the church no longer run schools the schools should be multimdemomitional (sp?), not non-demimontional.

he says they have some schools where 80% of the children arn't Irish or probably catholic, so he doesn't want specilised schools, and I agree with him on that.


STATE-SPONSORED primary schools of the future must keep God in the classroom while at the same time catering for religious diversity, Archbishop of Dublin Diarmuid Martin said last night.

"Religious education should be an integral part of the curriculum. We do not live in a God-less society."

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1693864&issue_id=14686

UU

And who is going to listen to Diarmuid Martin? I certainly don't and won't. He is a Catholic archbishop who obviously wants his doctrine being taught in schools. No, all state schools must be non-denominational and secular. Why should one religion be allowed to enforce its dogma on society? Sure, the children can learn about religion but religion can't be practised.

State-sponsored schools should keep God well out of the classroom. If the Catholic Church want God in the classroom, then they should set up their own small private schools. And the more God-less society is, the better.

lostexpectation

UU wrote:

And who is going to listen to Diarmuid Martin? I certainly don't and won't. He is a Catholic archbishop who obviously wants his doctrine being taught in schools. No, all state schools must be non-denominational and secular. Why should one religion be allowed to enforce its dogma on society? Sure, the children can learn about religion but religion can't be practised.

State-sponsored schools should keep God well out of the classroom. If the Catholic Church want God in the classroom, then they should set up their own small private schools. And the more God-less society is, the better.

but then he suggests that there will be a load of private schools with fees and one religion in them with kids segrated through religion and education.

The solution is to have no school religion rather then ask them to set up their own schools.

ironingbored

Hello. I wanted if possible to take up this discussion again. Firstly, for anyone believing (or believing they believe) in God please read "Why I am not a Christian" by Betrand Russell and then get stuck into "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. Secondly, my six-year old currently attends an educate together school which I find extremely good. There are many children of different faiths and of no faiths at all and religious doctrine is never either promoted or imposed but always given due respect (which I personally do not think it deserves). My wife (who is Italian) and I were brought up/inculcated/brainwashed into the Catholic faith/delusion but thankfully have both long since freed ourselves from the insidious grip of Catholicism. However, we are beginning to think about where to send our son when he reaches secondary school age. Try explaining the bizarre educational system in ireland to someone familiar with secular schools in continental Europe! How embarrassing! What happens to foreign kids of either another or no religious persuasion who attend "catholic" schools? Are they forced to sit through the joys of learning how catholicism is based on cannibalism (body and blood of christ)? can anybody enlighten me on the subject.

karen3212

I have to say, I think multi-denominational is better than religious organisations starting their new single religion schools. I think it's better that kids meet other kids from other religions, and learn about the other religions in the world.

If denominations are allowed exclude kids of other religions, then I see that as the worst outcome.

Another point I'd like to make though, is that parents should send their kids to local schools. Informed parents can help their local schools do better, and of course if rich and poor send their kids to the local school, bigger donations can help make up for the lack of donations of poorer parents. I'm probably living in dreamland though.

JC 2K3

Most "Catholic" secondary schools lack any sort of indoctrinating religion classes these days. There are occasional masses etc. But tbh I wouldn't be worried about the denomination of your child's secondary school. If they're not religious going in they won't be forced to be and there'll be no consequences for not believing in 90% of cases.

Fallen Seraph

i'd say it varies greatly from school to school. I attended a Christain Brothers school and it was incredibly easy going on the religion side. There was only one brother left in the school though (however it was said that he held more power in the school than the principal due to being a brother). I don't recall anyone being exempt from the religion classes.

One of the religion teachers did indeed think it best to inform us how homosexuality is immoral and chose to teach us from text books which suggested that Freud and Nietzche based large parts of their teachings on a single jocund remark from Voltaire and considered pointing out how Buddhism was hypocritical an education in other faiths (this was the book, not the teacher). The second religion teacher mostly used the religion period to discuss career choices with us and interspersed this wishy-washy everyone in heaven spiritual nonsense which not even he took seriously. Our third religion teacher just gave us a general social awareness sort of class that didn't really have much to do with religion.

All in all my experience of the system is that the religion aspect is a minor inconvenience that couldn't convert anyone even if it wanted to. Although, unfortunately, in direct response to your question, I think for the most part there will be cannibal related doctrine.

PDN

karen3212 wrote:

I have to say, I think multi-denominational is better than religious organisations starting their new single religion schools. I think it's better that kids meet other kids from other religions, and learn about the other religions in the world.

If denominations are allowed exclude kids of other religions, then I see that as the worst outcome.

Another point I'd like to make though, is that parents should send their kids to local schools. Informed parents can help their local schools do better, and of course if rich and poor send their kids to the local school, bigger donations can help make up for the lack of donations of poorer parents. I'm probably living in dreamland though.

At present any denomination (or indeed any atheist organisation) already has the legal right to set up their own school and determine their own selection policies. Such schools, of course, do not receive any financial support from the State, so usually parents must pay fees in order for their children to attend. My daughter received her entire primary & secondary education at just such a school (one established and run by an independent non-denominational church), and I am very happy with the education she received.

ironingbored

JC 2K3 wrote:

Most "Catholic" secondary schools lack any sort of indoctrinating religion classes these days. There are occasional masses etc. But tbh I wouldn't be worried about the denomination of your child's secondary school. If they're not religious going in they won't be forced to be and there'll be no consequences for not believing in 90% of cases.

But do I not have a right to send my children to a non-religious school? I don't want to risk sending him to one of the other schools in that 10%. My own religion classes were "soft porn" also with the teacher trying his utmost to be our friend while trying to pathetically convince us that the bible held a modicum of truth. I would have gladly spent that hour three times a week getting to grips with the pitfalls of trigonometry or the mysteries of igneous rock.

What do Muslim/Hindu kids do in Ireland now if their only alternative is a catholic school? Do they sit out the waste of time which is the one-hour religion class?

Dades

JC 2K3 wrote:

Most "Catholic" secondary schools lack any sort of indoctrinating religion classes these days. There are occasional masses etc. But tbh I wouldn't be worried about the denomination of your child's secondary school. If they're not religious going in they won't be forced to be and there'll be no consequences for not believing in 90% of cases.

I agree with this. Religious classes only account for a tiny percentage of school time. Forget it and concentrate on where your child will get the best education. Most catholic schools are almost completely run by lay-people anyway.

cavedave

Are they forced to sit through the joys of learning how catholicism is based on cannibalism (body and blood of christ)? can anybody enlighten me on the subject.

Probably depends on the school. In my school they could wander off to the library or read their own book. If the school is good you would have to be fairly militant atheist to let religion stop your kid going there.

There are many stories on non baptised children being denied access to schools which seems wrong. If a school takes tax payers money from everyone it should take in everyone. You hear stories in England of people faking thier religion just to get their kids into a good school which is pretty odd.

My own religion classes were "soft porn" also with the teacher trying his utmost to be our friend while trying to pathetically convince us that the bible held a modicum of truth

In a way I found this kind of good. I figured out for myself that these classes were propoganda and I now have a carzy detector. If I come across a belief system that is odder then ritual cannabalism, virgin births and people being turned into salt I can spot it is a cult pretty quickly. I get the impression that people who never had a religious childhood are more likely to fall into cults. I have no figures on this though.

rockbeer

I'm good friends with an atheist couple who send their kids to the local 'state' (i.e. catholic) school. The kids there are enticed into the church by being given less homework if they take part in church activities. The kids don't want the extra work so they go to church instead and are gradually becoming good young catholics.

I don't know whether or not this is a common scenario, but I suspect that there are still many such informal ties between schools and the church. Personally I think this sort of thing should be outlawed. Either the homework is necessary or not, and it shouldn't be contingent on other activities, especially religious ones.

I've pleaded with my friends to make an issue of it, but they won't because they don't want to upset the local community or single the kids out for unwanted attention at school. (If it were me I'd be down in the head's office explaining that my children will neither be attending church nor doing the 'optional' homework.)

This is the kind of insidious power the church still wields at local level. I would strongly advise people to carefully check out the degree of religious influence the church holds in any state school you might be thinking of sending your children to.

JC 2K3

ironingbored wrote:

But do I not have a right to send my children to a non-religious school? I don't want to risk sending him to one of the other schools in that 10%. My own religion classes were "soft porn" also with the teacher trying his utmost to be our friend while trying to pathetically convince us that the bible held a modicum of truth. I would have gladly spent that hour three times a week getting to grips with the pitfalls of trigonometry or the mysteries of igneous rock.

Ah come on. What teenager wants to do actual work instead of sitting through a doss class? Also, as I mentioned before, most religion classes at second level are becoming world religion/philosophy/ethics/current affairs classes rather than Catholicism classes.

ironingbored wrote:

What do Muslim/Hindu kids do in Ireland now if their only alternative is a catholic school? Do they sit out the waste of time which is the one-hour religion class?

Do you mean primary or secondary school?
I've no idea at primary, but in secondary, if it happens to be a Catholicism class and not a world religion one, I presume they sit out and do study.

cavedave wrote:

In a way I found this kind of good. I figured out for myself that these classes were propoganda and I now have a carzy detector. If I come across a belief system that is odder then ritual cannabalism, virgin births and people being turned into salt I can spot it is a cult pretty quickly. I get the impression that people who never had a religious childhood are more likely to fall into cults. I have no figures on this though.

I tend to agree.

Tim Robbins

rockbeer wrote:

I'm good friends with an atheist couple who send their kids to the local 'state' (i.e. catholic) school. The kids there are enticed into the church by being given less homework if they take part in church activities. The kids don't want the extra work so they go to church instead and are gradually becoming good young catholics.

I don't know whether or not this is a common scenario, but I suspect that there are still many such informal ties between schools and the church. Personally I think this sort of thing should be outlawed. Either the homework is necessary or not, and it shouldn't be contingent on other activities, especially religious ones.

I've pleaded with my friends to make an issue of it, but they won't because they don't want to upset the local community or single the kids out for unwanted attention at school. (If it were me I'd be down in the head's office explaining that my children will neither be attending church nor doing the 'optional' homework.)

This is the kind of insidious power the church still wields at local level. I would strongly advise people to carefully check out the degree of religious influence the church holds in any state school you might be thinking of sending your children to.

What we need is a website with details on all the schools.

lostexpectation

ironingbored wrote:

What happens to foreign kids of either another or no religious persuasion who attend "catholic" schools? Are they forced to sit through the joys of learning how catholicism is based on cannibalism (body and blood of christ)? can anybody enlighten me on the subject.

bto be fair your not forced to listen to anything he'll sit in the class and do his maths homework

ironingbored

I think some of you are missing my point. I'm not interested in whether they just have to sit in on a doss class or go outside to study. I am a non-believer and I pay my taxes, therefore, I sincerely believe that no state school receiving tax-payers money should have any sort of religious ethos. In the 21st century and in a so-called "Western Democracy" it is an absolute disgrace and an embarrassment.

PDN

ironingbored wrote:

I think some of you are missing my point. I'm not interested in whether they just have to sit in on a doss class or go outside to study. I am a non-believer and I pay my taxes, therefore, I sincerely believe that no state school receiving tax-payers money should have any sort of religious ethos. In the 21st century and in a so-called "Western Democracy" it is an absolute disgrace and an embarrassment.

Amen. As a believer who pays my taxes I agree with you.

Fallen Seraph

ironingbored wrote:

I think some of you are missing my point. I'm not interested in whether they just have to sit in on a doss class or go outside to study. I am a non-believer and I pay my taxes, therefore, I sincerely believe that no state school receiving tax-payers money should have any sort of religious ethos. In the 21st century and in a so-called "Western Democracy" it is an absolute disgrace and an embarrassment.

From a theoretical point of view, yes. Ireland is in fact unbelievably backward. Our taoiseach can basically say "Atheists don't belong in Ireland" and get away with it, a person who doesn't follow a Judeo-Christian religion cannot become president, up until recently the church wielded a ridiculous amount of power to the extent that they could get rid of ministers if they so wished (to over-simplify the matter a little) and yes, indeed, our primary school system is far, far too religious. I really object to confirmation and communion being done through the school.

I just feel that despite this farce, in practice the secondary school system works. And as JC pointed out, the religion classes, in my experience, are really one of the more eye-opening and practical parts of the curriculum. While it is a disgrace and embarrassment, it shouldn't really be something that weighs too heavily in your judgement of a school for your children, imo.

Tim Robbins

PDN wrote:

Amen. As a believer who pays my taxes I agree with you.

Ideally, I would like to see a selection Religions, belief systems taught and atheism of course.
I just don't like:
1. prejudicing people because they are not a certain religion / faith
2. teaching a single religion / belief system as if it is the only one. It is insular, narrow minded.
Regards

Nevyn

This topic came up a while back with in the parenting fourm.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055000841

lostexpectation wrote:

but then he suggests that there will be a load of private schools with fees and one religion in them with kids segrated through religion and education.

The solution is to have no school religion rather then ask them to set up their own schools.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/education/primary-and-post-primary-education/going-to-primary-school/ownership_of_schools

Ownership of primary schools
Information

The vast majority of primary schools in Ireland are privately owned and supported by the different churches. The state pays the bulk of the building and running costs and a local contribution is made towards the running costs.

National schools are privately owned - in general by the relevant church authorities. In the case of Catholic schools, the owners are usually the diocesan trustees; the same is true for Church of Ireland schools. Other denominational schools usually have a board of trustees nominated by the church authorities. Multi-denominational schools are usually owned by a limited company or board of trustees.

Gaelscoileanna may be denominational and come under the same patronage as Catholic schools but some have their own limited company.

All primary school are privately run and are funded by the state.

Tim Robbins wrote:

What we need is a website with details on all the schools.

I have one for primary schools but not secondrary school.

:http://www.education.ie/servlet/blob...t/pschools.xls

In Ireland there are 3077 primary schools. 3028 are Catholic. 49 are multi/inter-denominational. The rest are unknown or of other religions. This breaks downs to 98.4% of all primary schools are Catholic. 1.5% are non-religious.

The educate together site states all the un and european take on the irish situation. The primary school situation is one of the reasons that none of the governments have ratified the un charter on the rights of the child.

Tim Robbins

Thaedydal wrote:

I have one for primary schools but not secondrary school.

:http://www.education.ie/servlet/blob...t/pschools.xls

Thanks for the link, I checked it and it doesn't work, are you sure it's the right one?

JC 2K3

ironingbored wrote:

I think some of you are missing my point. I'm not interested in whether they just have to sit in on a doss class or go outside to study. I am a non-believer and I pay my taxes, therefore, I sincerely believe that no state school receiving tax-payers money should have any sort of religious ethos. In the 21st century and in a so-called "Western Democracy" it is an absolute disgrace and an embarrassment.

Honestly, the state is only 86 years old and was built on a Catholic foundation. In fact, it's only in the last decade or so that any sort of significant non-Catholic demograph has emerged.

Theoretically it sounds like a "disgrace", but one must think pragmatically about issues like these. Radical change doesn't just happen like that.

Asiaprod

Irish Independent Online, by Grainne Cunningham
Wednesday May 30 2007

THE Catholic Church has reluctantly agreed to act as patron for a new primary school in west Dublin even though it is likely that most pupils will not be Catholic.

Questions have been raised as to why the Department of Education asked the Dublin Catholic archdiocese to become the school's patron. The pupils' parents are overwhelmingly immigrant and of mixed or no religion. They had not expressed a desire for a Catholic education.

The new school, in Diswellstown, near Castleknock in Dublin 15, is due to open in September, with up to 90 children who could not get find places in local schools, which are Catholic. In a statement, the Department of Education said it had approached Archbishop Martin as the Catholic Church was best placed to deal with the matter.

But Paul Rowe of Educate Together, which provides patronage for multi-denominational schools, questioned why the department had not approached his group to act as a more appropriate patron.

Explosion

Diswellstown is one of several areas in Dublin 15 to have experienced a population explosion in recent years. Parents complained that the two existing national schools were rigidly enforcing the entry requirement relating to religion.

The Dublin archdiocese said it was reluctant to open another Catholic school in the area because it believed the existing schools were sufficient to cater for the Catholic population.

Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has said Ireland needs to find quickly new models of school patronage that would suit our changing society.

He has agreed to act as temporary patron to accommodate the extra pupils for a limited period, expected to be about two years.

"This is an exceptional situation," a spokeswoman for the archdiocese said. "The archbishop was asked and he felt the children had to be provided with a place to go in September."

The new school, Scoil Choilm, will be located in Blanchardstown beside the James Connolly Memorial Hospital.

Overspill

To meet the demand for primary-school places in the area, the Government authorised County Dublin VEC to provide the first VEC-run primary school in Ireland.

However, Diswellstown Community National School is due to open its doors in September 2008 - too late for the 90-strong overspill for the coming year.

Last night, INTO general secretary John Carr commended the archbishop's decision to act as temporary patron, but said the plan by the Department of Education to open a primary school under the patronage of Co Dublin VEC should still go ahead.

"This is an opportunity to design a new model of schooling which will accommodate Ireland's new diversity under one roof," he said.

Historically, church authorities have acted as patrons of primary schools, initiating the process of establishing a new school when one was needed to serve a specific geographic area.

Educate Together and An Foras Patrunach, which runs the gaelscoileanna, have also taken up the role in latter years.

Sangre

Well unless we start seeing some decent, rugby playing secular schools its gonna be religious schools all the way for my kids!

Dades

Sangre wrote:

Well unless we start seeing some decent, rugby playing secular schools its gonna be religious schools all the way for my kids!

LOL.

Now there's an important reason for choosing a school.
Olympic Handball and Badminton won't cut it!

dereko1969

Fallen Seraph wrote:

a person who doesn't follow a Judeo-Christian religion cannot become president

eh, where do you get that from?
on the issue of the primary school in damastown having to have a 'religious' patron this is a total disgrace and is symptomatic of the failings of this state in health and education where basically the state pays for everything but has power over nothing - it's the boston tea party in reverse! i'll have to try and dig it out but i thought i'd read somewhere recently about the first state owned/patroned national school being set up recently, so why can't damastown be the same? i mean it's only taken us 86 years to get around to setting up our own schools. Republic my arse!

Dades

dereko1969 wrote:

eh, where do you get that from?

I'd hazard a guess that it has something to do with the swearing into office.