Boy Racers vs Bikers

TempestSabre

Drax wrote:

...surely you have been on the M50 or similar road and heard a bike coming ...

No I see them first. As is logical. In my experience. You just don't hear a bike inside a car. Maybe I'm never been in the super quiet cars you have though.

Drax wrote:

As I go up the middle of M50 traffic I always take a look at ... people sitting in their cars....are usually (a) reading newspapers....

Jeez if almost everyone is doing it you should report it to the Guards :eek:

Drax wrote:

Agreed - this is dangerous behaviour, although I wouldnt go so far as to call them 'idiots'. If you have enough poke in your bike, you can safely execute this kind of manouver without getting into too much trouble.

So its dangerous and safe. Makes perfect sense.

Its the exact opposite of creating road presence and you are basically putting yourself in the blind spot of every vehicle on both sides as you pass them.

shoegirl

I have yet to meet a biker who thought driving up and down a petty little housing estate was "fun." Most bikers are fine. The guys who overtake on the wrong side of the road (esp in built up areas) are suicide-intent idiots, but most are ok. I have to say that the noise of the bike heard depends on the speed. The twits who fly up on the wrong side of the road at 100mph are not easy to hear if you've a radio on. Sadly the roads don't cater well for bikers which I think is a big part of the problem.

Most bikers I know are enthusiasts who genuinely love bikes and I respect that. A lot are also car drivers and those I know are very responsible drivers. Then again the demographic of bikers does seem to be aging as bikes are getting a lot more expensive.

SonOfPerdition

ned78 wrote:

They make us safer Perdition by adding to the already delicious cocktail of skills us Riders have : Defensive Driving, the ability to filter, respect for other road users, respect for the rules of the road. Having loud cans is in no way a substitute for roadcraft, but merely an addendum.

No they are not an addendum to road craft, if you need to make your presence known on the road you can use your horn where necessary. This is clearly stated in roadcraft.

SonOfPerdition

Drax wrote:

And as a cage driver and biker, surely you have been on the M50 or similar road and heard a bike coming and possibly (hopefully) moved to give them more room to filter up? As I go up the middle of M50 traffic I always take a look at mirrors of the people sitting in their cars. Very few are looking around and are usually (a) reading newspapers (yes I have seen this - one guy also looked like he was correcting exam papers) (b) on the phone (c) rubbernecking.

Nah, i always see a biker filtering long before i hear them. The one time i did hear a bike before i saw him was when he was splitting moving traffic and passed me on ly left just as i was about to move from lane2 to lane1. This was where his loud pipies did save an accident . .but only becase they had to compensate for his dangerous/poor riding.

btw, making room for a rider is not a safety issue. The only thing i look out for while filtering is sudden movement by car drivers. If i have to wait a couple of seconds for room to continue then i will quite happily stop and wait.

To stick with the point of this thread . .loud pipes are only noise pollution and their safety aspect is a smoke screen.

Owen

SonOfPerdition wrote:

No they are not an addendum to road craft, if you need to make your presence known on the road you can use your horn where necessary. This is clearly stated in roadcraft.

Aha, yes. 'Roadcraft' is a descriptive term used to describe driving safely, and having awareness of your situation. More than that, it's about driving as an art form, and not just getting from A to B like the other ordinary drivers. There is no concrete version of 'roadcraft' that clearly states anything. It is taught differently by different people.

IMHO, a 75 db horn is less effective (Especially a bike one, tinny, high pitched ineffective, almost apologetic noise) than a 130db exhaust blipping. You'd be very suprised at the number of times I've had a driver veer into my lane on a phone, and no matter how many times I sounded an alert on my bike they'd ignore it. One blip of the throttle and it gets their attention straight away.

Owen

SonOfPerdition wrote:

To stick with the point of this thread . .loud pipes are only noise pollution and their safety aspect is a smoke screen.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Yes of course they're noise pollution (No one on the thread has disputed that), but in an urban environment at low speeds they will prevent stupid people stepping out onto roads without looking. And that is just one undeniable safety aspect.

SonOfPerdition

ned78 wrote:

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong. Yes of course they're noise pollution (No one on the thread has disputed that), but in an urban environment at low speeds they will prevent stupid people stepping out onto roads without looking. And that is just one undeniable safety aspect.

What do you do when someone who is deaf or someone wearing an iPod steps out in front of you?

Owen

The same thing you'd do if you had standard exhausts. Hit them

Look, you could go around looking for the tiniest hole in everyone's argument on this thread, and we'd quickly have 500 posts. At least can you see the merit in what I'm saying?

Drax

TempestSabre wrote:

No I see them first. As is logical.

There are a lot of drivers out there that are not 'logical'. Fair play if you keep an eye on ALL your mirrors but a lot of peope dont.

TempestSabre wrote:

Jeez if almost everyone is doing it you should report it to the Guards :eek:

Silly comment. You seem to be selectively taking comments from a thread and fitting them to you own answers. How many people stuck in traffic are fully concentrating on the road around them. Sure god knows I have been know to drift into lula land on occasion while being disillusioned with traffic jams.

TempestSabre wrote:

So its dangerous and safe. Makes perfect sense.

Another example of your twisting TempestSabre. There is a big difference if you are splitting lanes at 100km/h on a 250cc and 1000cc bike. It is dangerous due to the uncertainty of other drivers, but if put in dangerous situation, the extra power could allow you to get out of trouble. (in my opinion anyway). This could be the beginning of a whole new thread!

SonOfPerdition wrote:

Nah, i always see a biker filtering long before i hear them.

Good god - 2 good cage drivers in 1 thread. We need more of them

SonOfPerdition

ned78 wrote:

The same thing you'd do if you had standard exhausts. Hit them

Look, you could go around looking for the tiniest hole in everyone's argument on this thread, and we'd quickly have 500 posts. At least can you see the merit in what I'm saying?

So you agree they have no safety merit for the significant number of pedestrians who walk around listening to iPods or some other music player?

And, I do have a standard exhaust on my bike, and i haven't hit any pedestrian to date! Now either you see a whole lot more lemming type pedestrians than i do or i tend to ride differently to you.

I have already said that I never bought into the argument that loud pipes are a safety feature. I simply disagee and point out the flaws with some of the more common arguments raised to support it. You can say its looking for tiny holes, but i say its debating the facts.

No one on this thread has provided a good solid argument for the safety of loud pipes and to justify the noise pollution.

hell, i don't give a **** really . .its just so bloody typical to see the safety card flown for this argument when in reality its really just a cosmetic enhancement because they sound good.

SonOfPerdition

Drax wrote:

Good god - 2 good cage drivers in 1 thread. We need more of them

I'm one of those lucky few that ride and drive and enjoy both.

Idleater

SonOfPerdition wrote:

No one on this thread has provided a good solid argument for the safety of loud pipes and to justify the noise pollution.

hell, i don't give a **** really . .its just so bloody typical to see the safety card flown for this argument when in reality its really just a cosmetic enhancement because they sound good.

You know what, I am beginning to agree with you. I have the stock (80db) can on my bike and I haven't hit anyone yet, or for that matter have I had anyone try to drive across me that would not have done so anyway even if I had a sports exhaust on. The sports exhaust comes in at (91db), and I made no bones about stating that I was prepared to put one on purely for the noise that I like.

That of course makes me no better than a boy racer, apart from the fact that if I actually did do it, I would as a side effect be heard in more cases than I would without it. Whether that is a good thing or a bad thing is a matter of opinion. I happen to be Pro in that argument, because as has been pointed out earlier, with a bike it is more likely a case of life and death than with a car.

One thing that I would like to point out though, that I do want you to be aware of is that you "always" see bikers before you hear them. Be careful, always is a long time and you should never rely on "always" doing anything.

L.

Drax

SonOfPerdition wrote:

I'm one of those lucky few that ride and drive and enjoy both.

Which is probably why you are lot more aware of bikes (and everything in general) on the road than people who only drive cars... What do you think?

SonOfPerdition

Drax wrote:

Which is probably why you are lot more aware of bikes (and everything in general) on the road than people who only drive cars... What do you think?

and people who only ride bikes too.

Hotblack Desiato

SonOfPerdition wrote:

What do you do when someone who is deaf or someone wearing an iPod steps out in front of you?

I addressed exactly this point in my post immediately above your first post in this thread. Read the thread mmkay

Hotblack Desiato

SonOfPerdition wrote:

No one on this thread has provided a good solid argument for the safety of loud pipes and to justify the noise pollution.

So explain to me why, riding the same route at the same time in the same traffic at the same speed in the same way on the same bike that I notice a visible improvement in the behaviour of pedestrians and motorists depending on whether I have the standard exhaust on or not. (they're interchangeable in 5 minutes.)

The only thing different is that with one I can be heard, with the other I can't.

The arguments that 'this is no substitute for roadcraft' etc. etc. are just silly and irrelevant. I seek every advantage available to me on the road to make me safer. That includes daytime lights, additional lighting, aftermarket horns, high visibility clothing, a louder but not irresponsible exhaust, AND advanced training and a Rospa qualification. I KNOW my aftermarket exhaust makes a difference for the better because I've tried it with, without and back again.

Owen

ninja900 wrote:

I seek every advantage available to me on the road to make me safer. That includes daytime lights, additional lighting, aftermarket horns, high visibility clothing, a louder but not irresponsible exhaust, AND advanced training and a Rospa qualification. I KNOW my aftermarket exhaust makes a difference for the better because I've tried it with, without and back again.

See? This is a well founded argument. And it makes valid points, every one of them. And I agree whole heartedly.

SonOfPerdition

ninja900 wrote:

So explain to me why, riding the same route at the same time in the same traffic at the same speed in the same way on the same bike that I notice a visible improvement in the behaviour of pedestrians and motorists depending on whether I have the standard exhaust on or not. (they're interchangeable in 5 minutes.)

The only thing different is that with one I can be heard, with the other I can't.

So explain to me why, riding the same route at the same time in the same traffic at the same speed in the same way on the same bike with a standard exhaust that I notice a visible difference each day in the way people behave, drive, depending on the way i ride?

The arguments that 'this is no substitute for roadcraft' etc. etc. are just silly and irrelevant. I seek every advantage available to me on the road to make me safer. That includes daytime lights, additional lighting, aftermarket horns, high visibility clothing, a louder but not irresponsible exhaust, AND advanced training and a Rospa qualification. I KNOW my aftermarket exhaust makes a difference for the better because I've tried it with, without and back again.

saying an argument is silly and irrelevant does not make it so. Your perception of events is not a definitive measuremnt.

Seeking any advantage is fine .. but loud pipes are noise pollution and are sociably irresponsible and despite the arguments to the contrary, loud pipes are not needed to ride safely. Every rider can ride in a safe manner with standard pipes if he/she chooses to.

BTW . . i read your reposne to the ipod question . . you are saying that people shouldn't be listening to their ipods so loud that they can't hear your pipes. .. your kidding right? you seriously expect people to keep their ipods at a level so that they can hear traffic? :rolleyes:

SonOfPerdition

righto lads . .i've said my piece on this topic and time to withdraw before i bore myself. I'm off to buy a new can for the bike . . well . . a bit of window shopping to tease myself. Nothing like the sound of a v twin rumbling down the steet at 6 in the morning eh?

have a safe weekend all .. and nothing personal agaisnt those i was debating with .. I likes the ould bit of debating now and then.

ride/drive safe!

Drax

SonOfPerdition wrote:

righto lads . .i've said my piece on this topic and time to withdraw before i bore myself. I'm off to buy a new can for the bike . . well . . a bit of window shopping to tease myself. Nothing like the sound of a v twin rumbling down the steet at 6 in the morning eh?

have a safe weekend all .. and nothing personal agaisnt those i was debating with .. I likes the ould bit of debating now and then.

ride/drive safe!

The same to you! Get a good loud one - it could save your life

TempestSabre

Drax wrote:

...You seem to be selectively taking comments from a thread and fitting them to you own answers. ...

I'm quoting whats been posted. I'm not even quoting out of context. Lots of stuff thats been posted here is contradictory. But its seems to be ok to contradictory as long as its pro biker. Regardless if it makes sense.

Apparently bikes aren't dangerous and that driving between lanes of fast moving traffic isn't dangerous. Cars have blind spots and personally I try to stay out of them. If staying in them works for you, good luck with that. Statistically a bike is dangerous even with out any other traffic being involved, on an open road. But maybe having loud cans helps there too.

Hotblack Desiato

SonOfPerdition wrote:

So explain to me why, riding the same route at the same time in the same traffic at the same speed in the same way on the same bike with a standard exhaust that I notice a visible difference each day in the way people behave, drive, depending on the way i ride?

But I said "riding in the same way". I gave the standard can a week (so I could fit the panniers - this was after having the bike for some time) and during that week I had more people not notice me than I did the week before and the week after. The pipe certainly isn't 100% effective but it does give me a bit of comfort that there's some chance I've been heard.
With the standard can there is NO chance of being heard. While stopped in traffic I had to look at the tacho to know if the engine was running, because I couldn't hear my bike even though I was sitting on it! That's just crazy quiet.

saying an argument is silly and irrelevant does not make it so. Your perception of events is not a definitive measuremnt.

True, but you saying it is relevant doesn't make it so either. All we're doing here is expressing opinions.
My perceptions aren't a definitive measurement but neither are yours.

Seeking any advantage is fine .. but loud pipes are noise pollution and are sociably irresponsible

Not at the noise level I'm talking about and in the manner I ride it. In my opinion.

and despite the arguments to the contrary, loud pipes are not needed to ride safely. Every rider can ride in a safe manner with standard pipes if he/she chooses to.

True but if I'm riding in a safe manner and I give myself an additional advantage, then I'm safer again.

BTW . . i read your reposne to the ipod question . . you are saying that people shouldn't be listening to their ipods so loud that they can't hear your pipes. .. your kidding right? you seriously expect people to keep their ipods at a level so that they can hear traffic? :rolleyes:

Well, with the stock can every pedestrian might as well be deaf, because there's no chance they'll hear me if there is any other traffic about at all. If I can get to the point where, say, 50% of peds can hear me then I've cut the chances of one walking out in front of me significantly.
There are no absolutes, it's all about a little risk reduced here and another little risk reduced there, but it does all add up. For instance, my high vis vest doesn't guarantee my safety but if it helps prevent one potential incident during my riding career it's worth wearing.