Complaining about civil servants

Diogenes

This isn't a hypothetical, though the website I'm refering to is ,emphatically, not boards.ie and to the best of my knowledge, this person does not post here.

So, I know of one Irish Civil Servant who spends, what appears to be a significant portion of his working day, logged on to, and corresponding with the organisers of one specific website. His posts are time stamped, he makes little attempt to diguise his name. He is not a constructive contributor to the site, his opinion are boorish, his attitude and tone, highly agressive and in most ways he's a distruptive infulence on the site.

When I say a "significant proportion" I mean judging by the lengths of his posts, he must spend hours, on this site during his working day, and rarly posts at weekends or at night.

I feel offended not just by his tone, but simply by the fact he is a public servant. We pay his salary. If he was an employee I'd think no less of it, more fool his employer, who if this was an issue would happily set up a firewall to block this site (a complaint thats probably hit more than one webaddict). But he's a state employee.

I can find no way to complain about his behaviour to his branch of the service.

So my question is should there be a way for the general public to criticise, (and to praise) civil servants, should there be some dialogue between the general public and our civil servants?

ISAW

Diogenes wrote:

I feel offended not just by his tone, but simply by the fact he is a public servant. We pay his salary. If he was an employee I'd think no less of it, more fool his employer, who if this was an issue would happily set up a firewall to block this site (a complaint thats probably hit more than one webaddict). But he's a state employee.
I can find no way to complain about his behaviour to his branch of the service.

I take your point. Most people know the names of ministers and junior ministers but cant name any of the secretaries general or assistant secretaties in departments.

So my question is should there be a way for the general public to criticise, (and to praise) civil servants, should there be some dialogue between the general public and our civil servants?

I would think the Ombudsman http://ombudsman.gov.ie/en/

constitutionus

"Ratemycivilservant.com" anybody?

hell "RatemyTD.com" would be good for a laugh as well!

pete

Civil Service Departments all have Public Relations departments (or at least a PR officer) & all also have Personnel departments, both of which should be contactable easily enough through each department's main phone number, which can be found in the green pages of the telephone directory.

Having said that, you'd have to be pretty vindictive to actually make a formal complaint about an individual just because you don't like their posting style on a website.

Do you know if this person is actually currently working? Or if they're on a career break? Or annual leave? Or out on sick leave? Or studying? Term-time? Do they work a split week? Do they post when on breaks?

(Incidentally - "We" do not pay specific Civil Servants' salaries.)

Diogenes

pete wrote:

Having said that, you'd have to be pretty vindictive to actually make a formal complaint about an individual just because you don't like their posting style on a website.

A persistent abuse, a drain on the resources of the website managers, amid unfounded accusations that the website managers were behaving like fascists and sexist?

Do you know if this person is actually currently working? Or if they're on a career break? Or annual leave? Or out on sick leave? Or studying? Term-time? Do they work a split week? Do they post when on breaks?

The abuse I'm refering to has continued over a sustainted 5 year period.

(Incidentally - "We" do not pay specific Civil Servants' salaries.)

No and I'm not a moron, I'm not suggesting that I pay specifically for his salary, however in much the same way I'm intitled to feel outraged at a government waste using a private jet, this person has wasted considerable resources and drawn a salary over the past five years.

Hotblack Desiato

Diogenes wrote:

The abuse I'm refering to has continued over a sustainted 5 year period.

Perhaps, you know, it might be time for a ban? :rolleyes:

Strokesfan

Civil Servants have the sweetest jobs of all - do any of them actually do much work? I want to work in the Civil Service! Does it surprise anyone that they don't slave away trying to make our lives better?

pete

Diogenes wrote:

A persistent abuse, a drain on the resources of the website managers, amid unfounded accusations that the website managers were behaving like fascists and sexist?

Precisely none of which is of any relevance to his / her (alleged) employers, unless of course the activity could reflect badly on the department (see recent media reports of temp worker at state body reprimanded / fired for posting derogatory comments on a journalists blog)

The abuse I'm refering to has continued over a sustainted 5 year period.

Fair enough, but again you don't know what this persons schedule is.

No and I'm not a moron, I'm not suggesting that I pay specifically for his salary,

You'd be surprised just how offensive civil servants find people taking the "don't you know who pays your wages?" line.

however in much the same way I'm intitled to feel outraged at a government waste using a private jet, this person has wasted considerable resources and drawn a salary over the past five years.

And the evidence for this "considerable waste" is what, exactly? Maybe he/she is a fast typist.....

Again, speaking personally, I'd be needing much better reasons to make a formal complaint about someone, regardless of their place of employment.

Diogenes

pete wrote:

Fair enough, but again you don't know what this persons schedule is.

I do actually, he works a 9-5 ish schedule which pretty much exactly corresponds with his posts schedule.

You'd be surprised just how offensive civil servants find people taking the "don't you know who pays your wages?" line.

Fair enough if I was arrogantly demanding he do something above and beyond the call of duty to suit me, I'm merely annoyed that someone who is a civil servant, consistently commenting and engaging in a web discussion when this isn't their job. Put simple would you consider a fireman or garda, tapping furiously onto their blackberry while a fire or crime is commited acceptable?

And the evidence for this "considerable waste" is what, exactly? Maybe he/she is a fast typist.....

Look if I thought this was just some bloke occasionally typing a blog or a BB response I'd think nothing of it. This is someone who can happily rebut points several times on two or three threads a day and several e-mail lists. It's not the responses its the volume of them, often running to hundreds of words on various themes. Like I said, this isnt a isolated incident it's been going on for years, so my opinion of this persons behaviour isn't drawn on the loosest of facts its an opinion I've derived over a number of years.

Again, speaking personally, I'd be needing much better reasons to make a formal complaint about someone, regardless of their place of employment.

As I've said I've found this person to be spending what must be months of his tax payer derived salary abusing people, and making obnoxious allegations aganist them. The site administrators are annoyed but operate on a laise faire style of moderation. I'm just fed up with a public servant abusing his job in such a manner.

Hotblack Desiato

Strokesfan wrote:

Civil Servants have the sweetest jobs of all

How would you know?

ISAW

pete wrote:

Civil Service Departments all have Public Relations departments (or at least a PR officer) & all also have Personnel departments, both of which should be contactable easily enough through each department's main phone number, which can be found in the green pages of the telephone directory.

PR departments are here to do exactly the OPPOSITE of what was suggested. Their function is to tell how great the department is and to put a good spin on bad news. they have NO role whatsoever i the discipline of employees!

Having said that, you'd have to be pretty vindictive to actually make a formal complaint about an individual just because you don't like their posting style on a website.

Irish p[eople complain but dont tend to get formal with it. and he didnt say he didnt like posting style. If you look at the ombudsman Act you will see several grounds for complaint.

Do you know if this person is actually currently working? Or if they're on a career break? Or annual leave? Or out on sick leave? Or studying? Term-time? Do they work a split week? Do they post when on breaks?

He may or may not know that but it isnt him who is conducting the investigation!

Sleepy

Have to say, I deal with civil servants on a daily basis and it does seem like a pretty sweet number, nice holiday entitlements, flexi-time, salaries that are roughly on a par with private enterprise with none of the associated stress, job instability or performance expectations.

There are flip-sides however and those clients I've discussed this with are quick to point out that most private companies don't want to touch someone who's spent a significant amount of time working in the civil service because the work ethic is so far removed from the "real world", promotion is heavily based on length of service rather than ability or suitability for the position and when opportunities for promotion arise they're usually in quite substantially different roles than the individual is currently working in (and possibly wildly unsuited to e.g. accountants moving into I.T. administration etc.)

It seems like a nice place to work if you're semi-retired or have some other form of income (e.g. a family farm/ B&B /inheritance or something) but if you're ambitious and want to get on in the world, you're going nowhere in a civil service position. Swings and roundabouts.

Personally, I'd love to see the civil service run in the same manner as private enterprise, the productivity gains would be enormous and costs would plummet. That said, given the unemployment it'd cause and the strength of most civil service unions, it'd be political suicide for any government with the balls to try and implement it.

TempestSabre

I wonder how you run a non profit services like private industry? Who would want to work in them if they didn't offer the security of the public services.

pete

ISAW wrote:

PR departments are here to do exactly the OPPOSITE of what was suggested. Their function is to tell how great the department is and to put a good spin on bad news. they have NO role whatsoever i the discipline of employees!

That's a very old fashioned view of PR. Public Relations departments do exactly what it says on the tin - they are the public face of an organisation & (should be) the first point of contact for all public queries. Which was what the OP was looking for.

Nobody said anything about them being involved in disciplinary matters.

Irish p[eople complain but dont tend to get formal with it. and he didnt say he didnt like posting style.

No?

OP wrote:

So, I know of one Irish Civil Servant who spends, what appears to be a significant portion of his working day, logged on to, and corresponding with the organisers of one specific website. His posts are time stamped, he makes little attempt to diguise his name. He is not a constructive contributor to the site, his opinion are boorish, his attitude and tone, highly agressive and in most ways he's a distruptive infulence on the site.

If you look at the ombudsman Act you will see several grounds for complaint.

The very first paragraph of text on http://ombudsman.gov.ie says that they deal with "...complaints about the administrative actions of Government Departments", eg social welfare entitlements, tax issues etc. More specifically:

wrote:

He can look into all administrative actions including:

* decisions
* refusal or failure to act
* administrative procedures

...


Before you contact the Ombudsman you must first try and solve your problem with the public body concerned.

(http://ombudsman.gov.ie/en/Publications/CaseDigests/Name,2478,en.htm)


The OP doesn't (appear to) have a problem with the actions of a Department - he takes issue with some perceived slacking off, which is not the same thing at all.

pete

Sleepy wrote:

Have to say, I deal with civil servants on a daily basis and it does seem like a pretty sweet number, nice holiday entitlements, flexi-time, salaries that are roughly on a par with private enterprise with none of the associated stress, job instability or performance expectations.

There are flip-sides however and those clients I've discussed this with are quick to point out that most private companies don't want to touch someone who's spent a significant amount of time working in the civil service because the work ethic is so far removed from the "real world", promotion is heavily based on length of service rather than ability or suitability for the position and when opportunities for promotion arise they're usually in quite substantially different roles than the individual is currently working in (and possibly wildly unsuited to e.g. accountants moving into I.T. administration etc.)

It seems like a nice place to work if you're semi-retired or have some other form of income (e.g. a family farm/ B&B /inheritance or something) but if you're ambitious and want to get on in the world, you're going nowhere in a civil service position. Swings and roundabouts.

Personally, I'd love to see the civil service run in the same manner as private enterprise, the productivity gains would be enormous and costs would plummet. That said, given the unemployment it'd cause and the strength of most civil service unions, it'd be political suicide for any government with the balls to try and implement it.

These are incredibly outdated (and factually innacurate) views.

In all honesty there was a time I would have agreed with most of your post, but not any more.

ISAW

Sleepy wrote:

Personally, I'd love to see the civil service run in the same manner as private enterprise, the productivity gains would be enormous and costs would plummet. That said, given the unemployment it'd cause and the strength of most civil service unions, it'd be political suicide for any government with the balls to try and implement it.

Indeed. Education salaries are funded by public money but most schools and colleges are privately owned. They undertake to fund their own capital programmes to some degree. they dont rush out to government with the begging bowl. They dont "enter into negotiotions" about pay grades for teacher support or other jobs in what is called the "poverty industry" and Is funded by public money. Well they dont do it as much as other EU countries. That means the efficiency os greater and hence the bill is less. which in turn means that because of private efficiency we spend less per capuita of publuic money.
[rant mode]
and how is this reported. "Government underspending on Education" . One can say the same of health. We had nuns on their knees cleaning floors for nothing and now we pay eleven euros aan hour for cleaners. But the lions share of health spending seems to have gone into creating 50,000 administration jobs. Not doctors nurses or even cleaners (God knows we need them what with Viruses in hospitals).
[/rant mode]

RuggieBear

I'm in the civil service at the moment....this week i've been in at 8 and left my office between 6.30 and 8 every evening. I've probably averaged 45-50 hours a week since I started. My boss consistently does 12 hour days.

I can't talk about any other sections but in my section we break our arse.

spurious

... oh, but it amuses some people to constantly harp on about civil servants dossing, or guards 'sorting things out' for their friends and family, or teachers all having long holidays, or any other of their many obsessions.

Don't complicate things by bringing reality into it.
The civil service are hiring at the minute I think, let the rush begin for all those who think it's a soft number.

eclectichoney

RuggieBear wrote:

I'm in the civil service at the moment....this week i've been in at 8 and left my office between 6.30 and 8 every evening. I've probably averaged 45-50 hours a week since I started. My boss consistently does 12 hour days.

I can't talk about any other sections but in my section we break our arse.

this is exactly my job and im in the cs. im always working 45-50 hours a week with no overtime/time in lieu, whereas my friends in the private sector get rewarded very nicely for over time. we don't even get bonuses or a free xmas party!

tallus

I never got bonuses or a free christmas party either and I work in the private sector.

TempestSabre

RuggieBear wrote:

...
I can't talk about any other sections but in my section we break our arse.

I'm recently in the public service coming from years in the private sector, including contracting and I agree. It entirely depends on the section/department you are in. Where I am its understaffed and most people put in a lot of extra hours, and I reckon its as professional as the best places I've seen in the private sector. Other sections/departments are not the same. But then theres good and bad in the privare sector too and I've seen a lot bad places there too.

RuggieBear

TempestSabre wrote:

I'm recently in the public service coming from years in the private sector, including contracting and I agree. It entirely depends on the section/department you are in. Where I am its understaffed and most people put in a lot of extra hours, and I reckon its as professional as the best places I've seen in the private sector. Other sections/departments are not the same. But then theres good and bad in the privare sector too and I've seen a lot bad places there too.

Tbh my boss has 3 people, while he reckons he requires 10-15. But there is a hiatus on hiring permanent staff, so i have to do all sorts of things i've never been trained to do.

Worst thing to happen to my department was when it was almagamated with another, as the other dept had managed to overspend badly so we suffered as a consequence.