The Price of Oil

eddiej

Hi all,

Have finally decided to build own house after about a year of estate living. When it comes to the heating (I am taking for granted house south facing well insulated etc) I am kinda drawn between Geothermal and a wood pellet stove. The geothermal still requires electricity for compressor and circulating pump while I presume WPB only needs for circulating pump. This will be a new build in country with room for pellet hopper etc. Does anyone have any ideas on these too systems in particular or have I missed a glaringly obvious alternative

Eddie

Idleater

You could go for a combination of Renewable options.

For example, Solar and/or Geo/Aerothermal to heat the water as best as they can (probably sufficiently during good weather and in summer) and then use wood pellets to supplement during winter or act like an immersion.

From what I can gather during my research so far (not committed to any format yet) Solar and Aerothermal (and probably Geothermal) can supply hot water year round on their own.

Regarding electricity usage, the thing to factor in with the pellets is transport costs. With oil ever increasing, the transport of pellets is still going to be a factor, however, with electricity, there is no transport involved and we will probably have gone nuclear anyway...

L.

ircoha

nereid wrote:

You could go for a combination of Renewable options.

For example, Solar and/or Geo/Aerothermal to heat the water as best as they can (probably sufficiently during good weather and in summer) and then use wood pellets to supplement during winter or act like an immersion.

From what I can gather during my research so far (not committed to any format yet) Solar and Aerothermal (and probably Geothermal) can supply hot water year round on their own.

Regarding electricity usage, the thing to factor in with the pellets is transport costs. With oil ever increasing, the transport of pellets is still going to be a factor, not an issue using biodieselhowever, with electricity, there is no transport involvedso the transmission system comes free?, not to mind the cost of the actual power stations. and we will probably have gone nuclear anyway...did you ever try amortising the cost of a nuke station? c. €4.5 billion

L.

Anyway by the time we get around to nuke, the lead time is between 18 and 20 years [3 to 4 multiparty governments] we will be on the way out.

People are focussing on when the oil will run out, we will be damn close to extinction by then.

ircoha

eddiej wrote:

Hi all,

Have finally decided to build own house after about a year of estate living. When it comes to the heating (I am taking for granted house south facing well insulated etc) I am kinda drawn between Geothermal and a wood pellet stove. The geothermal still requires electricity for compressor and circulating pump while I presume WPB only needs for circulating pump. This will be a new build in country with room for pellet hopper etc. Does anyone have any ideas on these too systems in particular or have I missed a glaringly obvious alternative

Eddie

On GeoThermal, there is a concern about the hiorizontal version in so far as the ground may not reheat as fast as the estimates.
Vertical Geo_T, while more expensive and V dependent on the quality of the bore hole, maybe a better option.
Just a thought

muffler

Poor thread title

JamesM

muffler wrote:

Poor thread title

But it does bring us back to the fact that with a modern well insulated house and the latest oil fired boiler, one fill of oil will last a year. That is still hard to beat
Jim.

eddiej

Was not really looking for advice on thread titles though I think there is a fairly strong link between the price of oil and the resulting desire to look at alternatives to heat the house though thanks a lot for your contribution it has really helped me in deciding which of the two is the better system.

What is vertical versus horizontal geo thermal and also geothermal can heat water to about 45 degrees is that correct and if so would this be hot enough to wash dishes per say there will not be a dishwasher in the house and also to wash oneself. If not how do geothermal units add further heat to the water i.e. where does the power come from to heat the water this extra bit.

james M do you think that with a well designed insulated house and a good oil burner would make more economic sense and do you have any projections how this will way up with increases in oil price on heating bills

thanks again for the helpful advice

iplogger1

eddiej wrote:

Was not really looking for advice on thread titles though I think there is a fairly strong link between the price of oil and the resulting desire to look at alternatives to heat the house though thanks a lot for your contribution it has really helped me in deciding which of the two is the better system.

What is vertical versus horizontal geo thermal and also geothermal can heat water to about 45 degrees is that correct and if so would this be hot enough to wash dishes per say there will not be a dishwasher in the house and also to wash oneself. If not how do geothermal units add further heat to the water i.e. where does the power come from to heat the water this extra bit.

james M do you think that with a well designed insulated house and a good oil burner would make more economic sense and do you have any projections how this will way up with increases in oil price on heating bills

thanks again for the helpful advice

As far as I am aware (subject to correction on this) Eddie 45 degrees
celsius in itself is hot enough for showers & washing dishes.
I believe there are some showers with anti-scald valves and the
normal setting is somewhere around the 48celsius mark so 45 degrees
ought to be right in the zone for a comfortable but not hazardous
shower. Same applies to washing dishes. However there is an issue
to do with having a heat pump supply your domestic hot water.
The hot water cylinder (which generally needs bigger heat exchange
coils than the bog standard ones used with oil/pellets,etc) will
need to have a boost regularly enough where there is stagnant
unused water sitting in the cylinder. This is to kill off bacteria such
as that which would be a risk for Legionnaires disease,etc.
Usually the heat pump supplier will advise that you use night rate
electricity and set a time clock to just give it a boost for an
hour or more.

I am going for vertical rather than horizontal. More costly to install
but I was not entirely comfortable with the restrictions of reserving
such a large area of back garden to the shallow horizontal collector.
I also had concerns about the drainage quality of our soil and if I
wanted to take the measures to import better soil,etc and all the
associated groundworks I'd be as well having a borehole drilled.
Personally I have to be convinced otherwise to my belief that
the horizontal collector system is very sensitive to soil thermal
conductivity and specific drainage properties which vary hugely
throughout the Irish rural landscape. The borehole would appear
to eliminate a good deal of that efficiency jitter guesswork as I
call it...

We also have trees all around the perimeter of the 1.3 acre site
(condition of planning) and I've heard mixed reports about how
over the 20-30yr period I'd want to be getting the advantage of
the heatpump might be jeopardised or interfered by the presence
of tree root systems,etc.

Viking House

The cost of a heatpump is more than enough to insulate your house to Passive standards

www.viking-house.net

Idleater

iplogger1 wrote:

As far as I am aware (subject to correction on this) Eddie 45 degrees celsius in itself is hot enough for showers & washing dishes.

Can you or anyone else say whether this water temperature is sustainable when running a central heating system as well?

This could be an important factor if the drain of hot water is more than supply - I presume it would have to fall back on the immersion in that case?

When you are installing the Heat Pump, are you relying on it entirely or do you have a backup?

L.

Kashkai

I'm adding on 1,500 sq ft to my bungalow. It will be well insulated and will also have the super dooper energy efficient windows to reflect heat back into the house.

We considered the geo thermal option but the all in cost of excavating the site for the heat coils, the compressor and the pump came to €18,000. We also thought about the cost of electricty used to run the pump and this put us off this option. Of the €18k originally budgeted for the geo thermal heating, we are spending this on a new oil burner unit costing €1,500 installed and the remaining €16,500 will buy a lot of oil IMO.

While I would have liked to have gone down the green route, its just too expensive compared to oil heating. My site doesn't suit solar heating and I'd be doubtful if I could heat a house of 2,500 sq.ft by solar alone.

With regard to the wood pellet option, the space required for a boiler unit and pellet store was enormous so we've gone with an internal wood pellet heater/boiler that will be used to heat the water in summer and give a boost to the central heating in winter.

Mellor

iplogger1 wrote:

I am going for vertical rather than horizontal. More costly to install
but I was not entirely comfortable with the restrictions of reserving
such a large area of back garden to the shallow horizontal collector.

True they cost more, but you also get a bigger grant for a vertical GTP. So that reduces the price difference

JamesM

eddiej wrote:

james M do you think that with a well designed insulated house and a good oil burner would make more economic sense and do you have any projections how this will way up with increases in oil price on heating bills

I think that "Prosperous Dave" has answered your question very well.

Prosperous Dave wrote:

We considered the geo thermal option but the all in cost of excavating the site for the heat coils, the compressor and the pump came to €18,000. We also thought about the cost of electricty used to run the pump and this put us off this option. Of the €18k originally budgeted for the geo thermal heating, we are spending this on a new oil burner unit costing €1,500 installed and the remaining €16,500 will buy a lot of oil IMO.

While I would have liked to have gone down the green route, its just too expensive compared to oil heating. My site doesn't suit solar heating and I'd be doubtful if I could heat a house of 2,500 sq.ft by solar alone.

The initial cost of installing an oil system is quite low and even if the price of a fill increases, it is not a fortune.
Jim.

Wobs

We have our geothermal system running for about 4 weeks now and although the heating requirments aren,t that great at the moment the sytem also supplys us with hot water 24 hours a day without any backup systems or emersions. I currently have it set to heat the DHW to 49 degrees celcius at the moment but think I will knock it back a few degrees.

Idleater

Wobs wrote:

We have our geothermal system running for about 4 weeks now and although the heating requirments aren,t that great at the moment the sytem also supplys us with hot water 24 hours a day without any backup systems or emersions. I currently have it set to heat the DHW to 49 degrees celcius at the moment but think I will knock it back a few degrees.

That is good news. Do you have a backup power source installed and just not using it or are you entirely reliant on geothermal? Also, if you don't mind all the questions, what size property are you heating?

I have spoken to some Swedes who said that up there everyone that can goes (borehole) geothermal and in the cities they go aerothermal and it it very successful.

L.

eddiej

Viking House could you please expand on what you mean in regards to a passive house etc.

James M and Pros Dave i was reading lately in IFJ about the cost of oil versus WP to heat a house from this the cost of WP seems a reasonable bit cheaper as I said I will have the space for a boiler and hopper etc so do you think if the space is available it makes sense to go for it.

Vertical Geotherm is this basically a well with the geotherm plonked in it similar to putting it in a river also if this is correct what depth are we talking about in regards to the bore hole depth

Cheers
Eddie

Kashkai

eddiej wrote:

Viking House could you please expand on what you mean in regards to a passive house etc.

James M and Pros Dave i was reading lately in IFJ about the cost of oil versus WP to heat a house from this the cost of WP seems a reasonable bit cheaper as I said I will have the space for a boiler and hopper etc so do you think if the space is available it makes sense to go for it.

Vertical Geotherm is this basically a well with the geotherm plonked in it similar to putting it in a river also if this is correct what depth are we talking about in regards to the bore hole depth

Cheers
Eddie

I looked into getting a large wood pellet boiler to heat the entire house but the footprint required for the boiler and hopper was too big and a waste of valuable living space (I'm now putting in a fifth bedroom were the wood pellet boiler was going to go).

If you have the room, then go for it as it is a renewable energy source and in 10 - 20 years time, you'll probably be laughing while those of us still on fossil fuels pay exhorbitant sums for fuel.

The only downside I can see is that there are only 2 or 3 wood pellet manufacturers in Ireland and with a lot of people now installing wood pellet stoves/boilers, the demand may outstrip supply and the suppliers may take advantage of this and put up the price of the pellets - this is Rip Off Ireland after all!!!

Like I said in my previous post, I'm getting a smaller model for inside the house that will heat the water in summer and boost the central heating in winter.

Viking House

eddiej wrote:

Viking House could you please expand on what you mean in regards to a passive house etc.

Hi Eddie

I am not plugging for work here because we are more than busy at the moment, but a Passive house is a building in which a comfortable interior climate can be maintained without active heating or cooling.

This means that if your house was built and designed properly then you don't need any heating system at all, the heat from solar gain and the occupants is enough to heat the house. There is a lot of information on my website.

JamesM

eddiej wrote:

James M and Pros Dave i was reading lately in IFJ about the cost of oil versus WP to heat a house from this the cost of WP seems a reasonable bit cheaper as I said I will have the space for a boiler and hopper etc so do you think if the space is available it makes sense to go for it.

I know the basics of solar, wind, geo-thermal, wood pellet etc. But, I am no expert.
All I am saying here is that, an oil boiler is the cheapest and simplest to install - The latest boilers are very efficient - and oil is not that dear at the moment. It is also the simplest to run - Put it on a timer and service once a year. In 20 years time you will need to replace your boiler anyway.
I supose that you could also say that oil is the least fun
Jim.

iplogger1

JamesM wrote:

I know the basics of solar, wind, geo-thermal, wood pellet etc. But, I am no expert.
All I am saying here is that, an oil boiler is the cheapest and simplest to install - The latest boilers are very efficient - and oil is not that dear at the moment. It is also the simplest to run - Put it on a timer and service once a year. In 20 years time you will need to replace your boiler anyway.
I supose that you could also say that oil is the least fun
Jim.

I must say James there are times I agree with your line of thinking
even though we've decided to go down the ground source heat
pump route. Before I knew anything about heat pumps I also knew
very little about underfloor heating. The trouble is once you talk
to someone about heat pumps you get seduced quite quickly into
underfloor heating. From most voices of reason I've spoken to
running UFH with oil is very expensive so suddenly all your costing
comparisons have to be made relative to a UFH heating delivery
method and that is where the heat pump starts to re-emerge as a
more attractive and reasonable proposition.

Environmental concerns aside (and with GSHP not being a very green
solution in relation to todays ESB power generation methods)
I wouldn't be surprised if panel rads + good condensing oil boiler
a generous budget on extra insulation might still come in cheaper even
allowing for hikes in fuel costs. There is definitely no easy answer.
I've steered away from wood pellets because I've heard from good
sources that the most reliable boilers are the Austrian imported
models ($$$$$) and I would be concerned about fuel price hikes on account
of limited number of suppliers plus a gut instinct that they are
selling the bulk fuel close to cost now and will eventually hike
the prices in some unregulated fashion (forgive my ripoff ireland
paranoia ...)

~ipl

eddiej

Thanks guys for all replies,

was in Sneem at weekend and saw a house with wood pellet stove and a solar panels for hot water heating a new development they were coupled with high insulation and a heat exchange ventalation system. Must say looked v impressive but looks can be decieving

Viking House have trawled your site and the concept sounds almost too good to be true. I am not looking to slag off your system but can this work on any house size and would typical irish women with bad circulation (I will be ate) be comfortable in a house such as this. also what would you suggest for a hot water heating system in addition to this type of house. Also could you open the windows or would this feck up the whole system. I must say the concept of the ventalation heat exchaner looks very good is this totally independent of any power or is there a circulating pump involved. One last thing can you use your type of insulation on a stone faced house.

Regards
Eddie

Viking House

Viking House have trawled your site and the concept sounds almost too good to be true. I am not looking to slag off your system but can this work on any house size and would typical irish women with bad circulation (I will be ate) be comfortable in a house such as this.

Better to cocoon your living area with very high levels of insulation where you spend 90% of your time and put in a very small backup heat source to this area for when you come home after a Winter holiday.
If you sat watching TV during the Winter with your overcoat on, how many days would you need to also put on the heating? The effect of a passive house is the same.
There is no heating required in your bedrooms in a Passively insulated house as the correct temperature of 17 degrees can be easily maintained without heating.

also what would you suggest for a hot water heating system in addition to this type of house.

We fit 5m2 of solar panels for water heating which will heat 500L every 3 days to 50 degrees. 35L of 50 degree water will give you one shower.

Also could you open the windows or would this feck up the whole system. I must say the concept of the ventalation heat exchaner looks very good is this totally independent of any power or is there a circulating pump involved.

HRV systems usually run with a 300W fan which is the same as 3 lightbulbs.

One last thing can you use your type of insulation on a stone faced house.

We are just finishing an extension on a stone cottage in Sandyford, the house and extension is three times bigger and I expect the heating cost to be 50% of what it was before because we cocooned the living area and insulated close to Passive levels, this is where they will be living for 90% of the time. We externally insulated the stone cottage with Paroc.
We fitted a Condensing Combi gas boiler which is way more efficient than the copper cylinder system.

Wobs

nereid wrote:

That is good news. Do you have a backup power source installed and just not using it or are you entirely reliant on geothermal? Also, if you don't mind all the questions, what size property are you heating?

I have spoken to some Swedes who said that up there everyone that can goes (borehole) geothermal and in the cities they go aerothermal and it it very successful.

L.

Hi,

We are entirely reliant on the Geo, the house is just under 3000 sq ft and well insulated. Borehole is more efficient but slightly more expensive to install than the horizontall collector.

eddiej

Thanks all for the answers,

On the insulation side which really seems to be the driving force what is the cost of going from building regs which are obviously too low to a passive insulation level.

Also 500L / 3 days = 160l ish /day

if 5 in house = 185l for a shower a day

Does this increase proportionally with increase in solar panel area size as this would be on the low side if you were to include washing the dishes after meals etc.

Seems as though passive insulation levels coupled with a wood chip boiler for a boost in hot water would be best.

Also I presume there is a saving in the passive system in that you have no rads/pipework or underfloor system to worry about.

Eddie

Viking House

eddiej wrote:

Thanks all for the answers,
On the insulation side which really seems to be the driving force what is the cost of going from building regs which are obviously too low to a passive insulation level.
Also 500L / 3 days = 160l ish /day if 5 in house = 185l for a shower a day
Does this increase proportionally with increase in solar panel area size as this would be on the low side if you were to include washing the dishes after meals etc.
Seems as though passive insulation levels coupled with a wood chip boiler for a boost in hot water would be best.
Also I presume there is a saving in the passive system in that you have no rads/pipework or underfloor system to worry about.
Eddie

We put pipes in the GF slab to future proof.

Yorky

Does anyone know what the current price is for kerosene per litre?

Hamlet

Yorky wrote:

Does anyone know what the current price is for kerosene per litre?

Hi Yorky

I ordered kero from Campus last week €570. for 1000 litres

Paul

muffler

Hamlet wrote:

Hi Yorky

I ordered kero from Campus last week €570. for 1000 litres

Paul

Hate to say this Hamlet but I think you got a bad deal. I got kero back at the beginning of November and it worked out at €562 for 1000 litres. Now as everyone knows it has dropped in price since that and the government knocked off about €16 per 1000 litres in the budget during the week which afaik was effective immediately.

I dont really know the price now but I would expect it to be about €540

towbar

Wood pellet is getting harder to justify as price of oil lowers. More effort involved and certainly not as a convienent as oil. I dont have bulk storage yet and so pellets costing about 250 per tonne. At 2ton = 1000 litres savings over current oil prices are small. Even with bulk storage I reckon savings would be about €6-700 per annum at current prices. I do accept oil prices will rise and a low dollar is holding prices low for the moment but I also think that pellet prices will rise and I cant see Balcas maintaining a €160 per tonne price as demand increases. Saw dust used to be a waste product...

I notice the budget moved to remove duty on Kerosene. I wonder is there vat on pellets? In the North its 5%.

There is a wide range of wpb out there and unfortunately we dont have any way to compare and contrast the experiences of wpb users. We went for a middle of the price range solution and by the time we get storage sorted will have cost us about 6.5k + grant. At my estimated €600 per year saving thats 10 year payback which I suppose is ok.

On passive we do not have a passive design however we have a stat in each room and I have been able to monitor the temp in each room with a PC. The rear of our house is South facing and with any bit of sun at all the heat in the rear rooms will rise from 15 to 21\22 degrees during the day. There are 2 bedrooms and a utilty room that never require heat. The front rooms see no heat rise, but it is very clear how passive design could work and I wish I knew back at design stage what I know now.

My advice to anyone out there building a new house is provision the space in your garage and if you have the money go for wpb +storage now, otherwise if like most of us and money tight at the end of the build I'd spend the 1500 on an oil boiler and tank as it looks like the grant will run for a while yet. You do need to buy bulk storage for your wpb as it alot of work without it, unfortunately as we try to get other things finished up our storage is on the long finger.

JamesM

muffler wrote:

Hate to say this Hamlet but I think you got a bad deal. I got kero back at the beginning of November and it worked out at €562 for 1000 litres. Now as everyone knows it has dropped in price since that and the government knocked off about €16 per 1000 litres in the budget during the week which afaik was effective immediately.

I dont really know the price now but I would expect it to be about €540

M50 Oil Co. leaflet offering 1000 ltr @ 540.00
I don't think that the 16 euro comes in until January.
Jim.

TKK

The budget removal of excise duty on kerosene comes into effect on January 1st.