Have EU Imigrants Benefited The Irish Republic?

Sgt. Sensible

Tha Gopher wrote:

the PC crowd

In my book, when someone mentions "political correctness" (without a proper context that is) they automatically lose the argument. Richard Littlejohn land? Nein danke.

vodalink

By working, by being entrepreneurs, by paying taxes which contribute to the provision of public health, education and transport, by helping to maintain a healthy population growth which hopefully will get back up to pre-famine level some day and just by generally making the place look and sound an awful lot better than 10 years ago when I was making 120 pounds a week and everyone looked like they had some sort of disease.

Can you proove Migrants are entrepreneurs? What is this based on?

Can you proove that Migrants are paying taxes sufficient enough to balance the cost to public health, education and transport from the burden they now put on it?

Can you proove that the majority of Migrant workers are high skilled and high paid? And not at least the vast Majority as the OP claimed, are low skilled, low paid and dont pay much in the way of Tax in anything at all?

You claim Ireand looked "look and sound an awful lot better than 10 years ago when I was making 120 pounds a week and everyone looked like they had some sort of disease." But that would put us back into 1996 the Boom of the Celtic tiger? Well before we had any migration from the new EU states! Yes or No?

bonkey

Macmorris wrote:

I agree that the problem has always existed but there is the potential now for the problem to be made much worse.

Exactly....and yet virtually no-one seems to see tackling the underlying, always-there problem as the way forward, nor even as the root cause of what they see today.

With tens of thousands of people coming here every year from countries where the average wage is only a fraction of ours, it's inevitable that Irish workers will lose out in the competition for jobs.

Right. Whereas if tens of thousands of people didn't come here every year, its also inevitable that Irish workers will lose out in the competition for jobs!

Why? Because we'd be uncompetitive abroad, our economy would have already fallen into tatters, and we'd be struggling like a lot of the larger European economies are. We'd even be blaming the same people....just for something else. It'd be their fault that "our" jobs went abroad, and that "our" foreign investment was going to them instead.

The only way Irish people could have all kept their jobs and their wage-levels would have been if we never actually succeeded in the first place - if we had remained an underdeveloped, poor nation.

We're clearly managing alright now as there's plenty of jobs to fill, but what will happen in a few years when the economy slows down?

What happened last time our economy slowed down? Oh yeah - lots of people emigrated to where the jobs were.

My guess is that will happen again. My guess is it would already have happened if we hadn't managed to keep growing our economy as we did.

And if you think this is only the ranting of the scare-mongering bigots, try reading any articles written by economists like David McWilliams or Moore McDowell. Although they're happy to point out how much the immigrants are adding to growth, in nearly all cases they warn about the danger of increased competition for jobs.

Ah, but you see, I've never suggested its only the ranting of scare-mongering bigots. I've just pointed out that much of the offered criticism is irrational and misdirected. I do not believe it serves anyone for the rational, balanced, considered questions to be thrown in with irrational, even-when-it-was-the-bears-I-knew-it-was-the-immigrants, scare-mongering.

And I wonder why is there such a silence.

Ah yes. The Ann Coulter approach. In a long-running thread that seems to crop up every 3-6 months, in newspaper articles we see at least as often, in what the taxi-driver or your mate tells you in the pub....

We hear the same questions being asked time after time after time, alongside the allegations that no-one is asking these questions, debating any of the issues etc!!!

Fear of being called.... ?

You haven't been called anything on this thread, nor has it stopped you asking your questions. I would even suggest it is posters like yourself who are raising most of the comments about...oh, how did you put it...ah yes...scare-mongering bigots.

I mean...who are you trying to convince with such language? The only logical target is that you want to discredit people taking positions like mine by making it seem like we're the ones throwing abuse around, and who therefore aren't approaching this rationally and logically.

So again, people like me are the bad guy. You use abusive language, but ascribe it to my position. You claim that the real issues are being ignored, but people taking a position like mine aren't the ones drowning it out with noise. You say there's a deafening silence, when in fact, there's a never-ending run of threads, opinion pieces etc. ensuring that silence is the last thing we have.

The simple truth is that there are issues to be solved, but the signal-to-noise ration is all wrong. Even getting agreement on what is and is not just noise is virtually impossible, but until its done, no meaningful discussion can be had.

It's not OK in either case, whether foreigners are involved or not.

I'm glad we agree on that.

The problem is that people can freely discuss the former case without fear of being called racist but if they should dare to address the latter they're accused of being 'scare-mongering xenophobes', trying to blame the foreigners for all the country's problems.

And more of the strong language that no-one's actually levelled at you. What a great way to convince anyone that what you want is reasoned debate.

Leaving the mischaracterisation aside, I would argue that you're still incorrect.

I woudn't accept a discussion about Irish people in Ireland earning less than minimum wage either. I would ask there, as here, why the seperation. Why does it only matter if Irish people are paid less.

I would ask why the problem isn't that workers are being paid less then the legal minimum by employers.

That is the underlying problem, that is the root cause, and that is what needs to be corrected in order to find a solution.

Now maybe you're right, and maybe some other people wouldn't have a problem, but I'd disagree with their stance as much as I've disagreed with the "blame the immigrants for long-standing problems" line of flawed reasoning, the "anecdotal evidence lets us draw wide-ranging conclusions" line of flawed reasoning, and so forth.

There are questions that need to be addressed. The first amongst them, that I can see, is how we're going to go forward from where we are when so many people are apparently uninterested in analysing problems to find the real root causes, but rather blame whichever group of foreigners is currently most noticed.

bonkey

Tha Gopher wrote:

When they were young, menial work was on a plate for them
...
he jumped between factory jobs like anything, he didnt care, it was walk in and you have it.

Any businessman would be a fool not to try and find a way around this situation.

If anything, you're highlighting why the "our jobs" mentality is false reasoning.

Nowadays, young Irish lads have no hope.
...
in the starting group of 50 there were only two Irish. Its 9.50 an hour, not great but not bad. You really have to wonder if any other Irish apart from the 2 boys applied for it.

I don't think "no hope" is an accurate assessment, unless what you mean is "no hope of living the job-hopping partying lifestyle that I just described".

And as you say...9.50 an hour is not great, but its certainly not a case of foreigners working below minimum wage, thus pricing the natives out of the market.

And yet only 2 out of 50 applicants were Irish. Strange. One would think that with so many of them losing jobs to people working below minimum wage as has been alleged, that they'd be clamouring to get a job paying above said rate.

It doesn't seem to make sense...unless the whole "taking our jobs, and working below minimum wage" thing isn't entirely accurate.

Ive asked more questions in my time than Chris Tarrant, and 90% of them have not been answered.

Y'know...I can only remember seeing about 3 or 4 posts from you, and strangely enough I recall you making this claim in all of them....despite not actually asking any questions in said posts.

I've rechecked. You don't ask any the one I'm replying to either. You just insist the "PC crowd" are wrong, despite all the points you make actually supporting their typical arguments .

vodalink

It would appear from my post and other contributors post that those of you tho sayYes to Migrants coming to Ireland cant give Any reason as to Why this is a good thing!

As you always seem to ask, Back up your "Yes THere Good For Ireland claims" with some evidence!

dathi1

It would appear from my post and other contributors post that those of you tho sayYes to Migrants coming to Ireland cant give Any reason as to Why this is a good thing!

Apparently it was to bring house prices down and increase competiveness. Apparently its having the opposite effect on accommodation and housing and really making things more difficult for “natives”  Shortermist open border policies that we have proven time and time again to be incorrect. I remember the old quotes: “There won’t be a flood of new EU member nationals that’s scare mongering” “House prices will come down” “Things will get cheaper” “ we will be more competitive” “It will increase our cultural diversity” (whatever benefit that has) “There will be no immigrant black market” (hehe) Its all bulshi.t in the end and when the low end Civil servant government jobs are under threat…Just like Pat Rabbite and Co you’ll see them all jump on the “restrictions now” bandwagon.

JC…I see The Swiss People’s Party are on the right footing. Even that bastion of multiculturalism as you call it has seen the light.

Attractive Nun

I haven't read this entire thread, but has anyone thought to approach the question from another angle? Irregardless of whether it is viewed as 'beneficial' to our economy (and economist after economist agree that immigration, in general, is good for an economy), we have little moral right to refuse immigrants. The European Union works entirely on the principle of free trade, free movement of people, free movement of captial. It has been proven beyond any doubt that this approach is beneficial to all involved, and very few people will still argue against it in Europe (Bizarrely, most still baulk at the idea of 'free trade' elsewhere on the globe, but that's another days work).

If the EU has shown anything, it is that - long term - a free market, or whatever you want to call the situation, benefits the poor (e.g. Ireland) just as much, if not more, than it benefits the rich (e.g. France). For anyone to be able to pick and choose what aspects of the agreement we want to maintain by restricting the free movement of labour because of a perceived danger, then the entire system could fairly easily fall apart.

At an individual level, who are we to say to Milan, the polish worker, who can't find a job in Poland, is living in poverty, that he can't leave his country? If there is someone here in Ireland who wants to hire him, there is someone who wants to let an apartment to him, there are shops here that want to sell him things, what right do we have to say no? Of course, there are whole issues connected to social welfare, but as long as he pays taxes then I really don't see the problem.

Unconnected point of the week:

Just as a quibble, I've seen the argument that "they just send all their money back to eastern europe, grr! It's bad for Ireland!" thrown around. There are umpteen different arguments against this, but I only want to make one point. Looking around the room, I'm using an American computer. There's a Japanese digital camera on the shelf. There are dozens of British and American CDs around, my jeans are American, my t-shirt is French I think. There's a Chinese ruler. These couches are Swedish as far as I know. I'm pretty sure this table thing came from Argos. The only Irish thing I can think of are my boxers (Dunnes Stores' finest), and perhaps this mug. Most of my money is leaving the country. So when I inevitably get fired for spending too much time on the Internet, am I entitled to live here? Should I get unemployment benefits?

Just a thought...

bonkey

dathi1 wrote:

JC…I see The Swiss People’s Party are on the right footing. Even that bastion of multiculturalism as you call it has seen the light.

I have no idea what you're talking about that's relevant to a thread on EU immigrants. Switzerland is about to open its doors to EU immigrants, as a result of the bilateral agreements.

I assume you're not confusing a hardline stance on asylum as being in any way relevant to a discussion on immigration, but I don't see any other connection.

Maybe you could spell it out for me, rather than just stopping short of where a point might exist to be made?

I remember the old quotes:

Making up your own version of what positions were held isn't remembering quotes.

jc

vodalink

I haven't read this entire thread, but has anyone thought to approach the question from another angle? Irregardless of whether it is viewed as 'beneficial' to our economy (and economist after economist agree that immigration, in general, is good for an economy), we have little moral right to refuse immigrants. The European Union works entirely on the principle of free trade, free movement of people, free movement of captial. It has been proven beyond any doubt that this approach is beneficial to all involved, and very few people will still argue against it in Europe (Bizarrely, most still baulk at the idea of 'free trade' elsewhere on the globe, but that's another days work).

I would agree with you if thats how the European Union worked.

Only 3 European countries allowed Eastern Europeans to work freely in there countries. The UK, Sweden and Ireland. For years the Eastern Europeans were waitihng to try for a better life with the thought of joining Europe only to find only 3 countries wanted them.

The problem this causes is instead of a fair balanced proportion of migrants equally spread around All of europe it inevitable that the only 3 countries will receive too many migrant workers.

If the EU has shown anything, it is that - long term - a free market, or whatever you want to call the situation, benefits the poor (e.g. Ireland) just as much, if not more, than it benefits the rich (e.g. France). For anyone to be able to pick and choose what aspects of the agreement we want to maintain by restricting the free movement of labour because of a perceived danger, then the entire system could fairly easily fall apart.

Im afraid I would disagree here again, Ireland yes has benefited well from the EU. But as to the rich countries? Britain dosent want to join the Euro and has the 4th largest Economy in the world. Most Of the Uk`s trade is American, and some might argue the Irish mainly deal with America too. France and Germany the other too Richest countries in Europe treat Europe as there Toy, and only want to take part when it suits them and when everyone agrees with them. This is obvious when you consider They didnt allow the 10 New Eastern European Countries free Travel and have also banned Romania And Bulgaria.

At an individual level, who are we to say to Milan, the polish worker, who can't find a job in Poland, is living in poverty, that he can't leave his country? If there is someone here in Ireland who wants to hire him, there is someone who wants to let an apartment to him, there are shops here that want to sell him things, what right do we have to say no? Of course, there are whole issues connected to social welfare, but as long as he pays taxes then I really don't see the problem.

If I were a Polish worker I would be over here as much as the next person, But as much as we would like to help we simply cant just keep allowing unrestricted amounts of people into our country if the rest of Europe are refusing to play ball too. In regards to Hireing, Thereis some Evidence frompeoples accounts that this is starting to force Irish people out of jobs as employers seek to lower there wages costs. One of the most obvious examples here are Irish Ferries who wanted to Lay off there entire Irish workforce and replace it with Cheap Eastern European Labour.

In regards to Tax, Not one person who is for The Eastern Europeans working has provided any proof of how much if any Tax is paid by Migrants. In our last Busget The tax threshold was increased to take more Low Paid workers out of the Tax system altogeather. Most People beleive that the Majority of Migrant workers are low paid.

And all the ~Increase in population is having a Direct effect on our public services. Whilst Its not the migrants fault if there is no restrictions on them coming here, our government are certainly at fault by not increasing our services to cope.

Unconnected point of the week:

Just as a quibble, I've seen the argument that "they just send all their money back to eastern europe, grr! It's bad for Ireland!" thrown around. There are umpteen different arguments against this, but I only want to make one point. Looking around the room, I'm using an American computer. There's a Japanese digital camera on the shelf. There are dozens of British and American CDs around, my jeans are American, my t-shirt is French I think. There's a Chinese ruler. These couches are Swedish as far as I know. I'm pretty sure this table thing came from Argos. The only Irish thing I can think of are my boxers (Dunnes Stores' finest), and perhaps this mug. Most of my money is leaving the country. So when I inevitably get fired for spending too much time on the Internet, am I entitled to live here? Should I get unemployment benefits?

All the items you have I presume were Bought in Ireland, Which means there are Import taxes paid when the products are shipped here, There are Sales Taxes on the goods when you buy them. Whiles No one would state the case they are happy to pay tax, everyone must agree Tax is essential to maintain a countrys economy. We pay for the goods with our wages. Now if some of the countrys wealth is leaving the country by being sent home then there is no Tax Gain at all.

And Just to show Why Europe isnt fair, the Migrants send there money home and take advantage of there low priced Economy.

A opel Velctra Used in Poland costs around 24,000 euro.
http://www.serwishaller.pl/opelmain/used.php
http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert.cgi Convert it!
Over here it costs around 40000 Euro

Opel Vectra OPC 2.8 V6 255bhp. OPC Waterford 14,100 2006 €40,290
www.iol.ie Carzone

Just a thought...

Sgt. Sensible

vodalink wrote:

It would appear from my post and other contributors post that those of you tho sayYes to Migrants coming to Ireland cant give Any reason as to Why this is a good thing!

Maybe other posters simply don't think your post contains any point worth responding to?

vodalink

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

Maybe other posters simply don't think your post contains any point worth responding to?

More likely as No one can think of a good awnser. 130 posts on and no one has why they are good with proof to back up there claims!

Sgt. Sensible

vodalink wrote:

More likely as No one can think of a good awnser. 130 posts on and no one has why they are good with proof to back up there claims!

Read the thread again then.

vodalink

Still cant see anything that has any evidence to support any claims attached to it!

Care to share?

vodalink

vodalink wrote:

Still cant see anything that has any evidence to support any claims attached to it!

Care to share?

Would you like a copy of the national accounts,Various statistical analysis or just fries with that?

vodalink

Just a link to something to support the claims!

Tha Gopher

Give up Vodalink, you wont get an answer.


Bonkey, it wasnt in Politics, generally, that I posed these questions (I do stay off these forums generally, as threads just become 245 page arguements until theyre eventually locked), but theres several in AH and one or two in Humanities showing it. Im not saying what my cousin did was responsible, but how can you argue that its fair that 18 year olds now suffer because of what people in the late 90s did?

As for my friend, it wasnt 2 out of 50 applicants, it was 2 out of 50 new hires, theres a difference.

Sgt Sensible- when people are accused of being politically correct, its for 3 reasons

1- Refusing to answer difficult questions that poke holes in their reasoning

2- Being completely out of touch with reality, often due to the fact they are in their late 20s/early 30s and are doing better than Joe Soap

3- Calling other posters racist because they cant win the argument or realise theyre wrong. Surely implying a poster is racist when clearly they arent could be counted as personal abuse? i.e. a ban?

4- Making claims/posting comments so outlandish or just plain insulting that the only function of them is surely to provoke people into bannable personal abuse

Now, its only point 3 I havent seen outwardly in this thread, but I havent read it all. The main point is that the uncontrolled influx has cut many young people out of the job market. Petrol stations, fast food joints, supermarkets, for people 16- 18 these are the only work options, and theyre gone.

Hobbes

vodalink wrote:

A opel Velctra Used in Poland costs around 24,000 euro.
http://www.serwishaller.pl/opelmain/used.php
http://www.xe.com/ucc/convert.cgi Convert it!
Over here it costs around 40000 Euro

That has nothing to do with immigrants coming here and more to do with the rip-off Ireland culture we have and also a numbers game regarding population. We have a tiny population in relation to pretty much everyone else. With such a small market the prices are going to be higher.

The problem with "They took ur jjbbbbs!" type posts is that they don't take all factors into account. People seem to think you show up in customs with a cusy place to stay all your money free from the government and anything you get goes back to thier home country.

The fact of the matter is that these people are buying/renting here. Money goes back into the econmy and further jobs are made to cater for the increase in population.

Our problem in Ireland isn't immigrants. Its purely a numbers game. To take a good example. South Korea. Population 48 million (similar size to Ireland and x10 population). Looking for a place to stay in Seoul I found a place that is 60 euros a night for the room (not per person). The room would be on par with a 5 star hotel room here costing well over 100 per person. The sheer number of people means that everyone charges less for items. High speed internet access for example is for the most part free and S.Korea turned itself around from a third world country to a major country in the space of one generation.

Purely numbers.

oscarBravo

Tha Gopher wrote:

Give up Vodalink, you wont get an answer.

Maybe that's because there isn't a simple answer, no matter how much you try to dumb down the question.

No matter how many anecdotes are quoted here, or high-level statistics (with no direct applicability to immigration) are referred to, the only way it's going to be possible to demonstrate a net benefit (or otherwise) of EU immigration is to do a detailed statistical study of the total contribution of these immigrants to the economy, as well as a detailed statistical study of the total cost of these immigrants to the economy. Until such time as these studies are carried out to a satisfactory level of detail, the question is essentially pointless.

The question was originally posed in this thread by someone who had already made up his mind on the subject, based on an alleged personal experience. That poster attempted to extrapolate the experience into the opinion of the "vast majority" of the population of the region, but failed to offer any evidence whatsoever to back up this assertion.

Anecdotally, I have not noticed the apocalyptic problems described in this thread. I am personally aware of a great number of immigrants in this region, most of whom (from what I can tell) are being paid at least minimum wage, and in the case of several that I'm aware of, being paid the same rate as their Irish colleagues. I am also aware of those members of my immediate and extended family, as well as neighbours and friends, who are not having difficulty finding either permanent or temporary work.

I'm not arrogant enough to claim that my personal experiences are proof that there are no problems associated with immigration, but they do lead me to be extremely skeptical of the constant cycle of the-sky-is-falling doomsday predictions about immigration that we've been hearing ad nauseam for years now.

vodalink

oscarBravo wrote:

Maybe that's because there isn't a simple answer, no matter how much you try to dumb down the question.

No matter how many anecdotes are quoted here, or high-level statistics (with no direct applicability to immigration) are referred to, the only way it's going to be possible to demonstrate a net benefit (or otherwise) of EU immigration is to do a detailed statistical study of the total contribution of these immigrants to the economy, as well as a detailed statistical study of the total cost of these immigrants to the economy. Until such time as these studies are carried out to a satisfactory level of detail, the question is essentially pointless.

The question was originally posed in this thread by someone who had already made up his mind on the subject, based on an alleged personal experience. That poster attempted to extrapolate the experience into the opinion of the "vast majority" of the population of the region, but failed to offer any evidence whatsoever to back up this assertion.

Anecdotally, I have not noticed the apocalyptic problems described in this thread. I am personally aware of a great number of immigrants in this region, most of whom (from what I can tell) are being paid at least minimum wage, and in the case of several that I'm aware of, being paid the same rate as their Irish colleagues. I am also aware of those members of my immediate and extended family, as well as neighbours and friends, who are not having difficulty finding either permanent or temporary work.

I'm not arrogant enough to claim that my personal experiences are proof that there are no problems associated with immigration, but they do lead me to be extremely skeptical of the constant cycle of the-sky-is-falling doomsday predictions about immigration that we've been hearing ad nauseam for years now.

You have just stated that a great number of immigrants in your area are being paid minimum wage.

Minimum wage is 7.65 per hour
http://www.oasis.gov.ie/employment/pay_and_employment/pay_inc_min_wage.html?search=minimum+wage

THat means a standard wage at 7.65 per hour based on a 38hr week = 290.75

this equals to 15116.40 per year

Tax payable per year = 3023

Tax Credits for a single person = 1630. PAYE TAX Credit = 1490.00 Total Tax Credit = 3120.00

www.revenue.ie

TAX PAID BY A SINGLE PERSON ON MINIMUM WAGE = NIL 0.00
Married Couple Tax paid on minimum wage = NIL 0.00

PRSI paid by a single person on minimum wage = 0.00
PRSI paid by a family on minimum wage = 0.00

www.welfare.ie


So what we have here is no Tax OR PRSI paid by immigrants who are working on a minimum wage. So where is the benefit to our Economy here? It would seem to me that there is more of a Burden than a benefit here. These imigrants are contributing Nothing in Tax or PRSI, but yet receive the services of the Gardai For Free, Our Health Service for Free!, A Free Medical Card! and so on. And who pays for this ? The Tax payer of course.

Meanwhile we have a increasing unemployment list of Irish people, who could be working these minimum wage jobs, releasing the Burden of the state by forking out massive amounts of money each week in benefits which in return would free up more money for our services such as hospitals etc.

And those of you who say they dont want to work in these jobs, MAKE THEM. If you are unemployed you are actively seeking work. You should have no chance to turn down employment, and if you do then your benefits should be stopped. How long do you think it would be before the long term unemployed wanted any job?

So What is the Benefit of EU Immigrants to Ireland?

Nothing Is clearly the awnser to the vast majority of them.

As I have pointed out they contribute nothing and put a increasing burden on the state.

Now If our low skilled migrant worker has a family, He or she then receives Child Allowance at the rate of 150.00 per week per child for the first two kids, and 185.00 for every kid after that. And the beauty here is the kids dont even have to live in Ireland!

If THere Under the age of six, they receive another 1000,00 per year every year, even if there kids dont live in the state!

And If they have a kid they can also receive Back to school allowance at the cost of another 120.00 if the child is inder 12 or 190 if over 11!

And Finally my Favourite Family Income Supplement.

A couple with 1 child earning the minimum wage each week can also receive an extra 105.00 per week.

So lets some this up

a migrant comes to Ireland, he is single and earns the minimum wage he can earn 290 per week and pay no tax and no PRSI, but avail for free all the services such as Hospitals, etc.

A Migrant who is married with one child but has his family living in his home country can earn 290.00 per week. Again pay No Tax or PRSI.
Receive 150.00 per month in child benefit.
And Receive 1000.00 per year if the kid is aged under 6.

His take homepay with benefits is 1489.66 per month again No Tax or PRSI paid but able to use all facilitys available.

A Migrant Couple with 1 child all living in Ireland on the minimum wage can earn

290.00 per week wages
150.00 per month - child benefit
83.33 per month- child supp (1000.00 per yr)
105.00 per week - FIS

Total take home pay 1944.00 again No Tax to pay, No Prsi to be paid, but yet again full use of Hospitals, FREE Medical card, Gardai. Priority Housing applications!(low paid family in need of housing, unable to obtain a mortgage).

So Where is the benefit to Ireland with these migrants?
I Understand many Irish people are on the same wages, but this is there country, they didnt add any burdens to the state, They never went anywhere else except try and get on in there own lives.

Migrants are quite happy to come and work here as the minimum wage in our country is a HIGH PAID WAGE in their country.

Average wage in Poland per month = 592.00
www.dublin.polishembassy.ie

Latvia Average monthly wage = 128.00 per month!
www.eiro.eurofound.eu.int

Hunguary Average wage - 245.00 per month.
www.eiro.eurofound.net

So as you can see you can earn more money in Ireland just by having a child than you can earn in Latvia in 1 month!

No wonder they love Ireland so Much!

Neolxs mentioned the point about Migrants driving cars, not taxed, not insured and not safe on the roads. Now I cant find any evidence in Ireland of this, but I can in the UK. Considering the UK was like Ireland only 1 of 3 countries to allow these migrants into our country I would beleive that we are suffering the same problems!

Police in SOuth Licolnshire in the UK did a 4 hr spot check. 50% of 70 Vehicles failed tests and had to be impounded.Six of the vehicles stopped were minibuses carrying migrant workers.Untaxed Unisured and unsafe.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/england/lincolnshire/4660270.stm


Now I really cant see where the benefit to Ireland is? Can anyone care to show me?

pete

vodalink wrote:

You have just stated that a great number of immigrants in your area are being paid minimum wage.

No, he did not. At all.

I don't suppose you'd share your figures for the %age of immigrants earning incomes which keep them out of the tax net? Thanks. (ref: "vast majority")

These imigrants are contributing Nothing in Tax

What, they don't pay VAT on everything like the rest of us?

edit: oh and your revenue.ie / welfare.ie links are incomplete. specific documents / pages, please.

edit #2:

Migrants are quite happy to come and work here as the minimum wage in our country is a HIGH PAID WAGE in their country.

And I suppose the Irish cost of living doesn't apply to them either? Man them johnny foreigners sure have it good.

vodalink

oscarBravo wrote:

Anecdotally, I have not noticed the apocalyptic problems described in this thread. I am personally aware of a great number of immigrants in this region, most of whom (from what I can tell) are being paid at least minimum wage, and in the case of several that I'm aware of, being paid the same rate as their Irish colleagues. I am also aware of those members of my immediate and extended family, as well as neighbours and friends, who are not having difficulty finding either permanent or temporary work.

If you read the post, the words are " I am personally aware of a great number of imigrants in this region,most of whom (from what I can tell) are being paid at least the minimum wage.

vodalink

pete wrote:

No, he did not. At all.

I don't suppose you'd share your figures for the %age of immigrants earning incomes which keep them out of the tax net? Thanks. (ref: "vast majority")

I was basing on what OscarBravo stated. Are you telling me that the vast majority of people coming here are high paid workers? Look in Mcdonals, spar, Garages they seem to employ migrants. Now unless im wrong I beleive they all pay the mninimum wage.

What, they don't pay VAT on everything like the rest of us?

Wow they pay VAT, But Not Tax, No PRSI. So a very little amount of money they put back into the system. Hardly going to pay for A FREE Medical card now is it?

edit: oh and your revenue.ie / welfare.ie links are incomplete. specific documents / pages, please.

My copy and paste on my mouse isnt working at the moment without reseting the computer. But its quite simple to use. Go to www.revenue.ie and look up Tax and Tax Credits.

Then goto WWW.welfare.ie and look up FIS, Child benefit, Child Supplement, Back to school. Its all there, quite easy to use.

edit #2: And I suppose the Irish cost of living doesn't apply to them either? Man them johnny foreigners sure have it good.

Well that depends. Are they living here on bare minimum? Are they paying road tax? Are they sending money back home with the intentions of returning when they make there money. When you consider what the Average wage is is those countries they are a making a mint, whiles the rest of us to have to live here. The Irish cost of living can be quite cheap if your looking at living on the bare minimum. And if your not fully obeying the rules on Cars. But dont forget they have No Medical Exspenses like the rest of us!

Diogenes

vodalink wrote:

If you read the post, the words are " I am personally aware of a great number of imigrants in this region,most of whom (from what I can tell) are being paid at least the minimum wage.

lionel hutz wrote:

I have conjecture and specualtion those are kindsof proof

:rolleyes:

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

pete

vodalink wrote:

If you read the post, the words are " I am personally aware of a great number of imigrants in this region,most of whom (from what I can tell) are being paid at least the minimum wage.

Very good, but the key words here are "personally aware", "most of whom" and "at least".

In other words, this does not equate to the statement "a great number of immigrants in your area are being paid minimum wage", and it is insane to try to draw a nationwide inference from it.

Hobbes

vodalink wrote:

So what we have here is no Tax OR PRSI paid by immigrants who are working on a minimum wage. So where is the benefit to our Economy here?

You mean paying VAT? buying stuff in the country? Or does our country only get money from PAYE/PRSI? o_O

Are they living here on bare minimum?

If they are on minimum wage then the answer would be yes wouldn't it?

Are they paying road tax?

Do they own a car?

When you consider what the Average wage is is those countries they are a making a mint,

Yea if they were actually living in thier own country while getting the same wages here. But they aren't.

Its like back when the tech industry was good the best place for a wage was Silicon valley. They were the highest paying section in the world. However what people failed to realise is that property and food in that area was also the highest paying as well. Many people I know who worked there commuted well over 200 miles a day.

whiles the rest of us to have to live here.

You could always move to poland by your logic.

The Irish cost of living can be quite cheap if your looking at living on the bare minimum. And if your not fully obeying the rules on Cars.

Have you tried living on the bare minimum? Try it and then get back to us how doing so is somehow sponging.

But dont forget they have No Medical Exspenses like the rest of us!

Where did you get that gem from?

pete

vodalink wrote:

I was basing on what OscarBravo stated. Are you telling me that the vast majority of people coming here are high paid workers?

No, I'm telling you that you've shown absolutely no grounds to claim that the "vasy majority" are working minimum wage jobs. I'm sure once you conveniently forget about the doctors, nurses, engineers, architects, IT graduates etc it's easier to believe it.

Look in Mcdonals, spar, Garages they seem to employ migrants. Now unless im wrong I beleive they all pay the mninimum wage.

Unless you can show that the "vast majority" are working such jobs (or in fact what said jobs pay) it doesn't really matter what you believe, does it?

Wow they pay VAT, But Not Tax, No PRSI. So a very little amount of money they put back into the system. Hardly going to pay for A FREE Medical card now is it?

Indirect taxation (of all forms) is just as valid a contribution to the state as direct.

My copy and paste on my mouse isnt working at the moment without reseting the computer. But its quite simple to use. Go to www.revenue.ie and look up Tax and Tax Credits.

Then goto WWW.welfare.ie and look up FIS, Child benefit, Child Supplement, Back to school. Its all there, quite easy to use.

Actually, it's your job to provide your sources.

Well that depends. Are they living here on bare minimum? Are they paying road tax? Are they sending money back home with the intentions of returning when they make there money. When you consider what the Average wage is is those countries they are a making a mint, whiles the rest of us to have to live here. The Irish cost of living can be quite cheap if your looking at living on the bare minimum. And if your not fully obeying the rules on Cars. But dont forget they have No Medical Exspenses like the rest of us!

OK now I get it - these foreigners don't eat, drink, pay rent, clothe themselves or socialise. In fact, they never buy anything and never use any services whatsoever. They live like hermits, totally isolated other than a weekly visit to the post office to pay for a stamp to post all their lovely excess minimum wage cash home.

A perfectly reasonable position.

oscarBravo

ziggy67 wrote:

Hmm Vodalink, you seem to have the same problems quoting as neoxls.

Wonder why that is?:rolleyes:

Leave the moderating to the moderators, thanks. If you have a concern about a post, report it.

vodalink

Originally Posted by pete

No, I'm telling you that you've shown absolutely no grounds to claim that the "vasy majority" are working minimum wage jobs. I'm sure once you conveniently forget about the doctors, nurses, engineers, architects, IT graduates etc it's easier to believe it.

[/QUOTE]


At the present time, many migrant workers carry out low-paid and low-skilled work in Ireland that had been carried out, until recently, by indigenous workers. The temptation to substitute domestic unskilled workers with cheaper foreign labour is very real and while the numbers, at present, are moderate, there is a potential for fostering racial tensions if the appropriate proactive policies and supports are not implemented.

http://www.fas.ie/information_and_publications/strategy/sos_eng/section_4.htm

Indirect taxation (of all forms) is just as valid a contribution to the state as direct.

Valid contribution yes, but the point raised was that Are these imigrants coming here paying there way or being a extra burden on the state. Now I would say with some conviction that the awnser is Yes. No Tax and no Prsi would indicate this. What they choose to but themselves is a Luxury regardless of VAT.

Actually, it's your job to provide your sources.

The source is provided. Its not my fault if you dont know how to work out Tax and Prsi or How Tax is Calculated.

OK now I get it - these foreigners don't eat, drink, pay rent, clothe themselves or socialise. In fact, they never buy anything and never use any services whatsoever. They live like hermits, totally isolated other than a weekly visit to the post office to pay for a stamp to post all their lovely excess minimum wage cash home.

Yes they eat, Where and How much I dont know, Do You?
I Guess they drink Water, But can you tell me how you know what else they drink.
Rent - Maybe, But what is there actual amount paid each week? Consider if there living in a house with more than 4 workers!
Socialise - Who knows, do you?
Live like Hermits? Who knows, do you?

pete

vodalink wrote:

At the present time, many migrant workers carry out low-paid and low-skilled work in Ireland that had been carried out, until recently, by indigenous workers. The temptation to substitute domestic unskilled workers with cheaper foreign labour is very real and while the numbers, at present, are moderate, there is a potential for fostering racial tensions if the appropriate proactive policies and supports are not implemented.

Fascinating, but I can't seem to find the bits that say "majority" or "minimum wage".

Valid contribution yes, but the point raised was that Are these imigrants coming here paying there way or being a extra burden on the state. Now I would say with some conviction that the awnser is Yes. No Tax and no Prsi would indicate this. What they choose to but themselves is a Luxury regardless of VAT.

You've yet to provide any basis for the claim that the "vast majority" pay no tax or prsi. In fact, until there's a minimum wage exemption for VAT your claims are patently untrue.

The source is provided. Its not my fault if you dont know how to work out Tax and Prsi or How Tax is Calculated.

You might as well have linked to google.com in that case.

Yes they eat, Where and How much I dont know, Do You?
I Guess they drink Water, But can you tell me how you know what else they drink.
Rent - Maybe, But what is there actual amount paid each week? Consider if there living in a house with more than 4 workers!
Socialise - Who knows, do you?
Live like Hermits? Who knows, do you?

Thank you for making my point. Your willingness to admit that you don't actually know what you're talking about has saved me considerable time.