Have EU Imigrants Benefited The Irish Republic?

Unpossible

but this is employer decision if he wants to have well educated and motivated worker or person who can only complain about everything

If some of you can't get any job becouse of immigrants- maybe it is time to get some more education ?? there are 1000's of immigrants working in shops as dunnes stores etc - and they get the same salary as irish employees. Why employers want to hire us who can't correctly speak english ?? maybe that is becouse we are never late, punctual, honest and really hard working ?

and they work faster than irish. that is why in my first job 80% of employees were polish and lithuanian.

i promise that i will work for you as hard as you are working everyday - and i saw irish people laughting at this

Everytime when i ask for assistance any irish sales assistant- firstly he must read what is written on the box and then he answers that what i already know i must forget about any technical question or check it in internet - i don't have this problems with immigrants.

Im sorry, I just felt like the above comments were him taking a cheap shot at Irish people and trying to imply that an immigrant is naturally better than an Irish person. Have to admit he hit a nerve with me and I was a bit rilled up when replying.

lemik_24

democrates wrote:

I agree with your points lemik.

Sadly there is no shortage of racist attitudes in Ireland, often held by people who are having problems in their own lives and use immigrants as a convenient scapegoat. Long before immigration this type of person was complaining about he, she, and the famous they. Everyone else was to blame for their problems, but never themselves.

I get that you're just pointing out that it's not the case that immigrants are bad and Irish are good, or visa versa, the truth is there's a mix of good and bad in both groups. Maybe it's where I live but over 90% of the immigrants I've met are decent hard-working people just trying to make their way in life.

exactly - you took it out from my mouth !
as i said before - My language level is very basic and i can't use words that i'd like to.

UNPOSSIBLE - u didn't understand me correctly - I'm not complaining about my or my group(immigrants) problems etc - I'm only saying that some of you should think about themselves before accusing others.

I don't deem that somebody is trying to get an advanage on myself as I'm good enough at this what I'm doing in my work or life.

and last word - lazy - all of you can agree with me that in every place of world in every country, city , estate- some (few %) people are lazy and would like to get money for nothing - and here is small difference - immigrants who are in Ireland came here to work - we are here for short period of time and usually and mostly we want to get good opinion for future references. that is why we are working hard. - we don't want to loose job becouse it is always harder for us to find next one then for irish.
irish who are complaining about unemployment in my eyes look like lazy people( maybe I'm wrong?), becouse situation is changing and they must work harder to be in business. - that is why they are complaining

maybe u could explain me what could be other reason than being lazy if there is 4% unemployment in Ireland ???

( I have 10's of friends who are also polish and don't know english language - all they can say is hello, bye, thanks, yes, no, - and they have job - earn between 8e p/h and 17 e p/h - and get the same money as their irish friends from their places of work.)

so how is it possible that 4% irish people with fluent english and knowledge of irish rules, work rights etc can't get job ?

it is funny for me that people are saying that unemployment is rising becouse of immigrants. if we can find jobs (some of us well paid)
- that mean that you are always on better position.....cos you know language and are irish.

lemik_24

Umpossible when u are quoting something quote all sentence !!

there is a huge difference between

"i promise that i will work for you as hard as you are working everyday - and i saw irish people laughting at this "

and

what is more few days ago i saw on billboards politician advert
it was something like that - "i promise that i will work for you as hard as you are working everyday" - and i saw irish people laughting at this..........

immigrants are not better than irish people - we are the same people in global village. I just gave few examples .... and i'm not waiting for quotations of my posts but for answers - why there are in some companies more immigrants then irish people i wrote about pc world - isn't it true that there are more pakistanian than irish ? etc etc only i can say is to ask why ??? if one on 25 dont have a work..

Unpossible

, becouse situation is changing and they must work harder to be in business. - that is why they are complaining

Sure, if all of a sudden the amount of work I do everyday isn't enough because some polish guy in the desk next to me is killing himself working all hours to out-do me then I will start to complain, I dont think that makes me lazy (assuming that I was doing the correct amount of work in the first place and not slacking off too much )

so how is it possible that 4% irish people with fluent english and knowledge of irish rules, work rights etc can't get job

Honestly I agree with you there, the 4% are either unwilling to work or are unemployable.

Why employers want to hire us who can't correctly speak english ?? maybe that is becouse we are never late, punctual, honest and really hard working

that mean that you are always on better position.....cos you know language and are irish

So one minute you are saying that employers favour you and your countrymen, the next you say that employers favour Irish, which is it?

UNPOSSIBLE - u didn't understand me correctly

I think I see what you were trying to say, its just that (like I said) I felt your first post was taking a cheap shot at us. I'd like to stress that I have no problem with EU immigrants, I kind of see it as a good thing.

fly_agaric

lemik_24 wrote:

finally my last sentence - i wrote it becouse I don't have anything against any of irish people and so far everyone are friendly and helpfull for me.

Fair enough. If you were trotting out the lazy, ignorant, stupid, violent Paddies stuff with anecdotal examples to highlight the ugliness of rants about lawless, job-nicking immigrants with diplomatic immunity it would have been more fun if you'd left your disclaimer off. In that way, you spoiled the potential "flame war".:D

lemik_24 wrote:

irish who are complaining about unemployment in my eyes look like lazy people( maybe I'm wrong?), becouse situation is changing and they must work harder to be in business. - that is why they are complaining

Okay. But won't Poland (like us probably?) be walling off its labour market from Romanians and Bulgarians?

Surely Polands 10-15 % unemployed (or whatever) will be able to get ahead and beat any potential Romanian/Bulgarian incomers who could be competing in the labour market!

Glenbhoy

lemik_24 wrote:

maybe u could explain me what could be other reason than being lazy if there is 4% unemployment in Ireland ???

(so how is it possible that 4% irish people with fluent english and knowledge of irish rules, work rights etc can't get job ?

4% is normally considered full employment by economists, there will be a certain amount of people in a society who cannot work, won't work (perhaps they receive more money in benefits etc than they would by working), moving between jobs etc......

lemik_24

Unpossible wrote:

So one minute you are saying that employers favour you and your countrymen, the next you say that employers favour Irish, which is it?

hard to explain

"Why employers want to hire us who can't correctly speak english ?? maybe that is becouse we are never late, punctual, honest and really hard working "

- i said maybe - do you know what is the reason that employers want to hire us ? - i wrote possibilities - do you have any other posibilities ( we are talking about situation when both will get the same money). ?


"that mean that you are always on better position.....cos you know language and are irish"

that is my opinion - if one immigrant and one irish apply for the same position and both have same qualifications - irish should get position - becouse of that he is irish and speak fluent english am i right with this way of thinking ?

that is fine that you are ok to immigrants - I also like irish people - that is why I'm here so long and want to stay for next couple of years ( i'm going to buy house here next year.

i started this discussion becouse there were a lot of voices earlier that made me sad. everyone should think about his own disadvantages before saying something against other people.

a lot of you tried to show immigrants in bad light so i tried to show that there is not always everything ok from other (yours) side
nothing personal......

Unpossible

i said maybe - do you know what is the reason that employers want to hire us ? - i wrote possibilities - do you have any other posibilities

I still see it as you implying that employers prefer eastern europeans ("want to hire us" suggests that).

It would be like me saying:
"why do polish steal our jobs? maybe they need the money really badly"
The fact that I said maybe doesnt take away from the fact that I just implyed that polish are stealing jobs. I cant just turn around right afterwards and say "infact polish are taking very few jobs from Irish people"

Anyhow Im just nit-picking and making sure you have your "bases covered" in the debate, good luck with the house

AdmiralNeo

=lemik_24]Hi all

First of all I'm originally from Poland, but i live in dublin nearly 2,5 years.

Why did you move to Ireland? What was wrong with Poland that made you move here?

I read all your posts and I'd like to say thank you for all of you who are trying to defend immigrants from new EU countries.

When i arrived to Ireland I didn't have work experience - I finished my studies and week later I landed in Dublin.

So you spent all your time planning to come here? Why didnt you give your home country a chance? How did you decide to come to Ireland? What was the attraction?

I didn't have a lot of money with me and I needed job quickly -

That was very foolish. How did you intend to live if you didnt find work?

I found a job as gen operative on construction site - I got the same salary as any other irish person on my position. Then i found a job in broadband company as a network admin.( I got degree in IT sector)

Did you think at the time that a Irish Graduate might have lost there place in the IT sector that you took? You mention you had the same salary in construction, but did you have the same salary in IT?

Unfortunatelly I lost my job after my contract expired - as same as few other Irish people - reason - project has finished no more work for all of you. month later Irish company with irish management hired new employess but gave them nearly half less of my salary.

How do you know what there Salaries and nationalities were?

- 1) it is not true that we agree to work for less salary than irish - it is becouse of irish managers/employers who wants to save more money

But because of the increased availability of workers willing to work for lower wages employers end up having a field day. If migrants didnt come here, Irish employers would have to pay better wages to get Irish workers. If Migrants refused to work at the lower rates then employers again would have to pay higher wages. But Migrants dont refuse this.

I started to look after next job - and i got it in electronic shop as sales assistant - Employer lied - told me that i will get xxx and i got less - after 3 weeks he started to cut my hours - I said enough and got fired. I asked social welfare for help and i got unemployed benefit ( rules for immigrants from new EU countries are - to be 2 years in Ireland or work without break 52 weeks.) after 3 weeks I got new job in one of biggest multinational IT companies in Ireland - and happy with my job I'm still here.

This is correct for unemployment benefit for not so for social welfare, which is payable if you loose a job regardless of how long you worked for a employer.

Every time during interview i saw plenty of cv's and i know that a lot of people were trying to get my job - irish , polish, lithuanian etc. so my question is Why did I get that jobs? am I better than any other person ?

My guess would be NO. The real answer would be that you were cheaper.

Be honest to yourself, would you as a employer hire someone new to a country, poor english, Not fully understanding here education qualifications, hard to get refernces over someone educated here in Ireland, Good English and excellent references from a well known Irish Body?

some of you are saying that we are taking your job places - but this is employer decision if he wants to have well educated and motivated worker or person who can only complain about everything. - there is usually the same salary in shops or on construction sites for everyone. I can see a lot of job offers with info JCB rates

But that dosent change the fact you are taking a irish persons job. Are you saying that Polish education is better than Irish? If Migrant workers were not here, then Yes a Irish person would be doing your Job.

If some of you can't get any job becouse of immigrants- maybe it is time to get some more education ?? there are 1000's of immigrants working in shops as dunnes stores etc - and they get the same salary as irish employees. Why employers want to hire us who can't correctly speak english ?? maybe that is becouse we are never late, punctual, honest and really hard working ?

The real answer is that Foreign workers are easier to Explote. Yes wages may be cheaper, but Foreign workers might not be claiming FIS, Might not be bothered with the hours or days they work. Are Prepared to take more risks with Health and safety etc. Not argue there rights and so on. This isnt because the Irish are ignorant, This is because we have worked over time to establish a good standard of working practices and conditions.

I heard few from employers that they are happy of immigrants becouse they want to work!! and they work faster than irish. that is why in my first job 80% of employees were polish and lithuanian.

These jobs werent created overnight for you guys. These Jobs were traditionaly filled by Students, Housewives etc. But now migrants have taken these over.

what is more few days ago i saw on billboards politician advert
it was something like that - i promise that i will work for you as hard as you are working everyday - and i saw irish people laughting at this..........

Every Country laugh at Politicians. Are you telling me that in Poland every politician is hard working?

Why in shops like pc world there are only pakistanian sales assistant?
Everytime when i ask for assistance any irish sales assistant- firstly he must read what is written on the box and then he answers that what i already know i must forget about any technical question or check it in internet - i don't have this problems with immigrants.

Well I dont know what Pc World you shop in! And yes in most cases if the person cant help you they would seek further advice. But this isnt the fault of the asistant. It is up to the employer to train there staff. Or are you saying that Polidh people would be better at working in PC world?

To be honest I don't understand some of you complaining about people from eastern europe

Firstly look at your own country. If your best workers want to leave and migrate to other countries what are you leaving behind? Your services of your own country are suffering because of greed of migrants.

Secondly the origional Idea of Europe was free Trade not Free Movement. Countries like Ireland can simply not substain a continued flow of migrants. I for one beleive that our services are struggiling with the increased population.

I met several times with opinion that immigrants are taking irish jobs.
But the funniest thing is that irish who said that were from "Finglas" - with no school finished and with crime offences against them.

For someone new into our country I think you are being offensive to the good people in Finglas. Every Vounty and Country have problems, or again are you saying Poland is a well behaved country with no crime?

I want also to add few words about wages - Usually when new people arrives to ireland they have not enough money to look after job they would like to get - we are taking first available job - some of us don't speak english - and employers know that, and are trying to save more money on us becouse we don't have any other choice. my question is whose false it is? our or irish employer?

Well its your fault. Dont come here if you dont have enough money to live on. If I went of to Poland without monhey and couldnt get work and ended up on the streets whose fault would that be?

we must have some money to live and we must accept first offer ( of course there are some people who has money - and they are getting jobs on their conditions but it doesn't happen very often)

Im sorry we dont owe you a living.

I read something about crime, rapes etc

- that is true bad things happens everywhere and not everybody is an angel but some of you are trying to make big case of small thing.

But we dont need the extra hassle of guests arriving in our contry adding to the problem.

Look at you dear irish people don't you see your kids what are they doing ?

in dublin there are hundreds of "young" gangs - kids are throwing stones into buses, stealing cars, burning them, drinking, smoking and robbing.

Hundreds of gangs? How do you know this? are they all Irish?

some time ago I was attacked in city centre by few kids who started throwing in my direction fireworks and i got hit in back - for nothing of course.

And were they Irish?

then some irish stole my friend's car - they were cought by garda, she got back her car and two weeks later she saw her windscreen broken - as a revenge

How do you know they were Irish?

what is irish goverment doing to improve safety on streets? nothing - young people can do everything. In my country there is special prison with school for young people who has a lot of problems with law and they spend there long years before they can come back to their family home.

Poland must be great, why dont you live there?

maybe two weeks ago some youth tried to steal car of my other friend - i called garda 5 times and they arrived 10 hours later at 11.30pm and told that they can't do anything with this ( there was a lot of blood in car so I asked if they could check local hospital maybe one of roobers was trying to get help )

You really must live in Bad areas. All your friends seem to get there cars robbed! In regars to the Garda response time you should report this.

another example - irish thiefs tried to robber my friend's house during night - but there was one friend inside house and he heard their conversation- they ran away.

Your friends really are unlucky.

I saw a lot of times garda during their work - while they were checking all car labels - and i saw a lot of irish drivers stopped becouse they didn't have insurance or tax or whatever else. - why are you saing that only we have problems???

Noone is saying the Irish obey laws, but I think its a bit rich moving to another country and not respecting the laws when you arrive. And again it dosent help adding to a countried problems. Especially when it is harder to try and stop a migrant car to a Irish one.

So finally - I'm paying taxes, i have a car, insurance, road tax, nct I pay every bills - and i don't understand why some of you think that i should't have the same right as you dear irish people. we live in EU - you wanted EU so it is natural that i can live where i want to - becouse we are all the same people - we only talk different languages.

Well not all of us wanted your countried to join the EU. We had a referendum and it was rejected. But then our goverment didnt think we knew what we were voting for and held one again! Democracy at its best. No offence but I dont think all the new countried add anything to the EU.

And put it this way, what do you offer Ireland that any other Well Educated Bright Irish person cant?

ps. please don't think that in my opinion irish people are not well educated or are lazy - i met hundreds of great hard working people well educated who teached me a lot of things and are helping me every day.

What would give me that idea?

i wrote it the same way as some of you think of us.

we are all people and there are bad eggs between of us.


ps2 I'm still learning english - i hope that you can understand me and I'm sorry for my basic knowledge of words and my grammar.[/QUOTE]

AdmiralNeo

AdmiralNeo wrote:

Why did you move to Ireland? What was wrong with Poland that made you move here?

Why does there have to be something wrong with Poland for him to move here? Afterall we move for work all the time. Just because I originally moved from Athlone, to Dublin, to Mullingar, to Thurles, and finally to Cork, doesn't mean that there was anything wrong with those places, but rather that my work lead me there. Perhaps I should have only stayed in Athlone, because I was stealing jobs in those other towns from the locals.....

Did you think at the time that a Irish Graduate might have lost there place in the IT sector that you took? You mention you had the same salary in construction, but did you have the same salary in IT?

I must admit I can't understand this mentality. People get jobs because of their skills, and the benefits that they can bring to the company. There are no jobs held reserved for people, but rather that we earn our positions through the training & experience that we have gained over the years.

Ireland has had a surplus of jobs for the last couple of years, and I can't really see how any graduate (with any real degree of success in college) would have any problems getting a job. Unless of course they expect a starting salary of 30k per year.

I certainly had no problems getting a decent job myself 7 years ago when I left college with a Diploma.

You do not automatically have a right to a job. Its not a right. Its something you earn. And he earned it by sitting the interview, and the company choosing to employ him over someone else, they apparently felt couldn't do the job as well as him. (after all employees are an investment, that need to show a return)

If you have a problem with that, perhaps query the company as to why they consider a foreigner might be a better employee to have over an irish graduate. And while you can provide opinions about him accepting lower wages and such, you have no actual knowledge of why this company decided to hire him over an Irish person. You may indeed be correct about it simply being because of lower wages, however, I doubt it. The ability to get more experienced workers than graduates was probably a much higher factor.

My guess would be NO. The real answer would be that you were cheaper.

Be honest to yourself, would you as a employer hire someone new to a country, poor english, Not fully understanding here education qualifications, hard to get refernces over someone educated here in Ireland, Good English and excellent references from a well known Irish Body?

The company I work for used to hire interns all the time. In many cases you can get foreign students in the last month of their college term for work experience for free, for a period of time. (Tax benefits also). We've had both foreign and Irish students do this. And while there was the added problem of the foreign students having to learn english, they tended (not always mind) to be better employees than the Irish students, who just wanted to finish their time and leave the office as quick as possible.

Its a generalisation, but I've seen quite a few in this thread already, but foreigners "tend" to work harder than their irish equivilents. For myself, If I had to chose between an Irish person and a foreigner with similiar qualifications, I would probably give the foreigner first shot, simply because they have more........ drive. A greater desire to prove themselves. Irish people seem to have lost that, and I would include myself in that. We had it when we still had close memories of when times were bad, but they're mostly gone, and so too has that drive to succeed.

But that dosent change the fact you are taking a irish persons job. Are you saying that Polish education is better than Irish? If Migrant workers were not here, then Yes a Irish person would be doing your Job.

Actually he may have been taking a job reserved for a japanese person. or a French person. Or just about any nationality. There is nothing in Irish law that states a company needs to hire just Irish people.

In fact, taking a job would suggest that someone (Irish, that is) was fired/removed to make room for him. Until the company chose who would have the position, there was nobody filling the place. Unless you show me that the company actually fired someone to make space for him?

These jobs werent created overnight for you guys. These Jobs were traditionaly filled by Students, Housewives etc. But now migrants have taken these over.

Yup they have, because most Irish people consider these jobs to be below them. The majority of students I know are either getting the Grant with an allowance from their parents, or just getting the grant. And many of them will be working in restaurants, pubs, etc aswell. Students have alot more money available to them as opposed to when I went to college, and don't feel the need to take the jobs in shops, cafes etc that used to be so much in demand. (I know many stsudents still work in these traditional areas, but the poster is making it sound like the immigrants have taken the whole job sector over)

Did you expect these businesses to wait patiently without staff until the economy turned and students would once more seek jobs from them? Nah. They're going to hire the people they need, from the people that are available to work. Its really that simple.

I could continue on, but it would be all the same. You have a very narrow viewpoint regarding foreigners entering our country to work, and can't seem to view the benefits of them being here. On the other hand, I view them as a major bonus, and perhaps Irish people will start fighting for jobs rather than expecting them to be served on a silver platter & a glass of wine.

democrates

AdmiralNeo you might recall that generations of Irish fled from hardship and lack of oppertunity. Sauce for the goose...

4Xcut

Deleted User wrote:

You do not automatically have a right to a job. Its not a right. Its something you earn.

Not because it's relevant to the discussion(although it is), but this is one of the fairest, and most applaudable attitudes to a job i have ever heard.....read.

4Xcut

4Xcut wrote:

Not because it's relevant to the discussion(although it is), but this is one of the fairest, and most applaudable attitudes to a job i have ever heard.....read.

Actually it is relevent since the company that hired him felt that he had earned the position that they offered him. AdmiralNeo seems to believe that graduates, or rather Irish people automatically have the right to jobs in the irish market. They don't. Its their scores from college/school and how much they impress the interviewer that determines whether they have earned a position in a company.

The ability to get a job rests upon your ability to impress an interviewer panel/person, the experience you have to date, and how the company feels you will benefit the company. Simply put, the company felt that this foreigner would benefit them more than an Irish person, although I seriously doubt they focused on where the applicants were from, but rather their skills... Nothing wrong in that. If anything it makes perfect sense.

mountainyman

oscarBravo wrote:

True. Worse, the opposition to the loaded questions and illogical arguments is interpreted as "fear" of finding out the "truth". Another unhappy outcome - which I saw today - is the assumption that whoever gets the last word "wins" the argument.

I don't agree, surely one could say that after the 'last word' the other party might abandon the argument in disgust because the 'winner' is entrenched in an illogical position.

MM

oscarBravo

mountainyman wrote:

I don't agree, surely one could say that after the 'last word' the other party might abandon the argument in disgust because the 'winner' is entrenched in an illogical position.

Oh, absolutely. Don't get me wrong: I saw someone else make that assumption; I wouldn't make it myself.