Argument about the Basis of Religious Belief and the Nature of Atheism

Zillah

As requested I will take my fighting words to another thread. This began in the "Mixed Relationships" thread. I said:

Zillah wrote:

I'm gonna be very not politically correct and say I could never love a believer. I could date one fine, but in terms of the whole children, mortgage, death do us part thing, no way. The kind of mentality required for a genuine belief in, and obedience to, an organised religion is something I could not respect.

To which Cantab. replied:

Cantab. wrote:

I'm a Catholic, and I think we can theologically nod to each other in this instance - I similarly do not believe I could reconcile myself to marry someone of another faith (indeed no faith).

And I rebuked:

Zillah wrote:

You'll get no nod from me here. A baleful stare, yes. The situation doesn't compare. You believe in the Christian God, transubstantiation, absolution of sin and all that malarky, and yet you'd reject other Gods, such as Shiva or Loki.

Why not these other Gods? The only answer is that you weren't brainwashed to worship them as a child, and yet even with that revelation you'll still maintain you have the answer. How can you look a Hindu in the eye and tell them they're wrong when you use the exact same logic to support your position, and the particular Gods could easily be swapped had your births been geographically exchanged.

My belief is consistent; I reject the notion of any supernatural creator.

Cantab. soldiered on with:

Cantab. wrote:

I don't appreciate your nonchalant tone. You talk of "malarky" and "brainwashing", yet you believe in a devoid nothingness and have accepted a life of futility, leading to ultimate misery.

And so we finally arrive at the current moment in time. So Zillah retorts with:


Cantab. what exactly is your argument? Try and put it in rational terms. Are you saying that someone should believe something, no matter how ridiculous, simply because it serves as an emotional placebo? What if that thing becomes a gross, greedy and corrupt institution such as the Catholic Church? The Vatican sits on billions and billions gathered from poor worshippers around the world over the last few centuries while covering up abuse cases, excommunicating critics and maintaining policies that enforce the suffering of millions of soon-to-be-AIDS victims around the world? They forbid condoms based on a very incorrect and archaic belief that semen was akin to life.

As for my nonchalant tone, you'll just have to live with it. Being a Secular Humanist leads to a rather light hearted outlook on life.

Now, as for your silly assertions on the nature of Atheism: "Devoid nothingness", "life of futility" and "ultimate misery" do not describe my outlook on life. I believe there is no God. In my mind, this makes this world an incredible, glorious accident. Reducing humanity to the pathetic play things of a petulant, belligerent and frankly insane all powerful creator is a dispicable notion to me.

However, I do not believe in his existence at all, so my reasons for rejecting him are two fold: There is no evidence for his existence and if there was I would still reject him, he is a hateful, hypocritical tyrant and I would defy him to the last.

My world is not "devoid nothingness", its a glorious evolution of inter-related systems so complex and wonderful that we'll spend a million generations understanding it.

My life is not composed of "futility", it is filled with a constant appreciation for the amazing depth and potential of humanity.

There is no "ultimate misery", simply an ending. I do not fear the time before I was born, why would I fear the time after I die? Both are non-existence.

My appreciation of life is greatly enhanced by my understanding that this is my only shot. There is no higher authority, my morality is my own. My responsibility is my own. There is no cavalry made of white light coming, I will not spent eternity sitting on white fluffy clouds playing poker with St.Paul. And neither will you, and if you could only accept that then maybe you'd have a chance to live before its too late. Carpe diem dude, carpe diem.

Zombrex

Crontab seems to be one of those charming thesis who just doesn't understand atheism, or seem that bothered in trying to understand atheism (we are evil after all).

He doesn't understand how one can have a moral belief system without being originally taught such a belief system from an organised religion.

I suppose its a bit like not understand how someone can actually write a pop song, rather than just being able to sing one that has already been written at a Pop Idol audition.

pH

Wicknight wrote:

Crontab seems to be one of those charming thesis who just doesn't understand atheism ...

wow - a Freudian unix slip!

Zillah

/Unix joke goes over head.


I did note the name error though. I find it a little ironic that Wicknight was criticising someone for not understanding his position while not even paying much attention to the other's name...

Scofflaw

pH wrote:

wow - a Freudian unix slip!

And it made me laugh, which worries me.

worried,
Scofflaw

Dades

Good stuff for removing a pointless argument from a useful thread.

I suspect Cantab's comments were a hit and run and it's unlikely (s)he'll to be back to argue them. Happy to be proved wrong though.

I can see how atheism looks like a bleak notion when your life on earth is a living misery however. The 'need' for something further is much stonger in such cases. Reminds me of my ex sig: "faith is the belief in something you know isn't true".

Zombrex

pH wrote:

wow - a Freudian unix slip!

Wow, I really need to get out more at lunch ..... now I have to go home

unzip
strip
touch
finger
mount
fsck
more
yes
comm
umount
sleep

UU

Cantab. is just annoying really. Honestly, a few months back (I'll just say 'he' for arguements sake) he went onto the LGBT thread basically telling all the gays on it that we're filty people who'll go to hell. He even got his own thread called "Cantab.'s Rant" there.

Now, it seems this vulture is preying on the Atheism & Agnosticism just thread to annoy us, to provoke some anger, even. Commenting on something he fails to understand like atheism. At least when I go onto the Christianity forum, I respect their beliefs there and try to engage in a healthy and understanding debate, unlike Mr. Attention Seeker with his "hit & run" tactics.

Ah well, the insanity in some people......:rolleyes:

Tar.Aldarion

This thread made me laugh too much to feel like I'm cool.

Beruthiel

Zillah wrote:

I will not spent eternity sitting on white fluffy clouds playing poker with St.Paul. And neither will you.

Zillah!
You horrible bubble buster you!
I was all set for hanging out on fluffy clouds

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

Wow, I really need to get out more at lunch ..... now I have to go home

unzip
strip
touch
finger
mount
fsck
more
yes
comm
umount
sleep

O...kay. Just..step away from the computer please, sir. Keep your digits where we can see them.

Brilliant - the eecummings of Unix. BTW, I hope that comm is full duplex, otherwise your umount/sleep will not result in |more.

disturbed,
Scofflaw

Zillah

Beruthiel wrote:

Zillah!
You horrible bubble buster you!
I was all set for hanging out on fluffy clouds

Believe it or not but Guy Fawkes wasn't a demon nor does the tooth fairy bring you money.

Santa is real though. And I don't mean the old Saint that inspired the current image, I mean the red suited, flying reindeer kind. Real.

5uspect

Judging by those great macro shots you posted over on the photography forum Zillah I'd say that you are definately not living in a "devoid nothingness and have accepted a life of futility". I'd say its safe to say from my brief time here that most people on this forum are very passionate people who live full lives. I'm sure that many on the religious forums do too but I get the impression that they have this constant fear in the back of their minds in case they jepordize their one way ticket to fluffy cloud land. It builds something of an enforced artifical morality which I find stifling.