Some important building questions!!!!!!!!

Do-more

Viking House wrote:

We are importing a Swedish foundation system that eliminates the cold bridge between the wall and the floor.

This product may be of interest also:

http://www.foamglas.co.uk/perinsul.htm

Designed to eliminate cold bridging at foundation/floor/roof to wall joints.

Viking House

Do-more wrote:

This product may be of interest also:

http://www.foamglas.co.uk/perinsul.htm

Designed to eliminate cold bridging at foundation/floor/roof to wall joints.

Thanks Do more, very interesting!

Viking House

Navilluso wrote:

Sorry to butt in....I was recommended today to use a 150mm cavity with a pump filled platimum eps - giving a U of 0.2 ? Didn't know to ask about wall ties...
Any comments?

Hi Navilluso

That system is a lot better than Kingspan/Xtratherm sheets in the cavity becuase it cuts out the Thermal looping. But eps has low density and looses heat quickly so you will need to keep your rads on all day to keep heat in the house.
By using denser insulations that hold onto heat longer, in Scandinavia, they can put the heat on for an hour in the morning and work in the room for the rest of the day even when its minus 20 outside.
I would not use cement plaster on the outside of the wall because you need higher quality plasters when you go for single leaf.

Wouldn't it be easier to build with a 9 inch cavity block and fix the 150mm insulation onto the cavity block and plaster directly onto the insulation.
Why do you need the block on the outside it only keeps the wall damp/cold?

Navilluso

Then which is the lesser of the two evils...thermal bridging or quicker heat loss? I can't imagine the point of installing insulation if you have to have heat on constantly to maintain the temps you want.

However, I'm not sure they have damp problems in Scandinavia....sometimes I think we are not comparing like with like...although they have very cold temperatures they don't have the same damp conditions as we do here. We don't need to be able to insulate against minus 30 temps, but dampness is probably a bigger issue here.

Wouldn't it be easier to build with a 9 inch cavity block and fix the 150mm insulation onto the cavity block and plaster directly onto the insulation.

If I told my father I was going building with a 9 inch cavity block...he'd lose the plot! LOL Considering his 70's house was built with exactly that....with NO insulation! Plasterboard just stuck on with some sort of glue at spots along the inside....(he didn't built it btw) Currently I'm living in a 70s house with a cavity and no insulation so to a certain extent anything would be better. I'd need to be convinced about the external insulation Viking but if you have personal experience......

Viking House

Then which is the lesser of the two evils...thermal bridging or quicker heat loss? I can't imagine the point of installing insulation if you have to have heat on constantly to maintain the temps you want.

I think full fill insulation is a big improvment on partial fill cavity insulation because you have no thermal looping but if I was given a choice I would like to use a denser insulation material that holds onto heat longer.
However, I'm not sure they have damp problems in Scandinavia....sometimes I think we are not comparing like with like...although they have very cold temperatures they don't have the same damp conditions as we do here. We don't need to be able to insulate against minus 30 temps, but dampness is probably a bigger issue here.

We are able to make hay and dry clothes on a line here in Ireland, we can even dry clothes in an outside shed while it is raining. The damp Irish climate is used as an excuse for a lot of bad building practices. Most of the problems in our buildings come from moisture from the inside. By allowing our buildings to breathe we are letting them dry out. If you wash your floor when it is raining outside, by leaving a window open your floor still dries.


If I told my father I was going building with a 9 inch cavity block...he'd lose the plot! LOL Considering his 70's house was built with exactly that....with NO insulation! Plasterboard just stuck on with some sort of glue at spots along the inside....(he didn't built it btw) Currently I'm living in a 70s house with a cavity and no insulation so to a certain extent anything would be better. I'd need to be convinced about the external insulation Viking but if you have personal experience......[/QUOTE]

Every system can be improved on just like Mellors wide cavity, we built two cavity block houses with external insulation last year, I think they are the two warmest concrete block built houses built in Ireland last year. One had 150mm of polysterene on the outside and the other had 150mm Paroc.

Mellor

Do-more wrote:

This product may be of interest also:

http://www.foamglas.co.uk/perinsul.htm

Designed to eliminate cold bridging at foundation/floor/roof to wall joints.

Thats very similar to a product I refered to in a previous thread on the issue. The one I seen was a german system.
But it eliminates the coldbridge at that area also. Basically it links up the vertical insulation upstand n the floor with the cavity or external insulation.

I still haven't decided how i'd like to build a house for myself.
i know alot about a wide range of technologys and the information is all understandable.

But the problem is in relation to performance. Calculations on paper and "ideas" only go so far. It will be interesting when the BER certs start getting issued, won't take long before timber or concrete or some other system is publishing a list that show they give the best ratings.

But if anyone has seen the sample rationg scale then they will know it is a joke.

ollie30

has any body else any thoughts on viking hse method of cavity block and outside paroc?is there any reason why we shouldnt use that method.i liked the sound of inside quinn lite leaf but is it mad building 2 expensive partil fill (1 quinn lite)walls when maybe vh method the easiest and maybe cheapest.not long before we start and still confussed quite a few methods but there doesnt seem to be a generaly agreed cost effective method of upgrading insulation (except dry lining and that doesnt seem to be too good ,dew point etc.)amongst the building trade. please help dont wana throw in the towel and just settle for standard practice because i cant decide in time

rooferPete

Hi Ollie,

I would have no problem using a 9" cavity block with a high performance insulation system, I would want the supplier to supply both the insulation and the fixings.

Offgassing was a problem when using some insulation on usually large industrial / commercial flat roofs, I am not taking about today or yesterday but as far back as the 1980's.

If the waterproofing systems were bonded direct to the insulation as little as one year later the membrane could have large blisters caused by gasses in the insulation.

The answer was to use a partial bond and vented system when fitting the finished roof.

Therefore based on past experience I have to agree with Viking regarding the sick building theory, because we knew about the problem over twenty years ago as did the manufacturers !

.

Viking House

ardara1 wrote:

It's the increased proportion of WALL TIES GOING THRU' theinsulation that must be accounted for when calculating the U-value - more wall ties - more thermal bridging - lowering the U-value what ever the thickness of insulation.
This is probably an even biggre factor when fixing exterior insulation systems - simply a lot more foxings penetrating the insulation layer.

With most external insulation systems you don't have any fixings through the insulation.

ollie30

thanks for your help guys,as i think i mentioned earlier i'm using stone on the face of the sun room and around a high window (both face north) if i used cavity block and paroc what would i do at the stone area??really want to keep the heat sapping stone as its a nice example which took a lot of effort to find

newbuild06

Viking House wrote:

Hi Viking

That system is a lot better than Kingspan/Xtratherm sheets in the cavity becuase it cuts out the Thermal looping. But eps has low density and looses heat quickly so you will need to keep your rads on all day to keep heat in the house.
By using denser insulations that hold onto heat longer, in Scandinavia, they can put the heat on for an hour in the morning and work in the room for the rest of the day even when its minus 20 outside.


Viking How would a pumped mineral wool bonded bead compare to eps or are they the same? The cavity area that would be pumped would be 130mm Would this hold heat longer than the eps???

Wouldn't it be easier to build with a 9 inch cavity block and fix the 150mm insulation onto the cavity block and plaster directly onto the insulation.
Why do you need the block on the outside it only keeps the wall damp/cold?

When you externally insulate do you also plaster the insulation as well?? and if so how does this hold up with cracks or gaps forming in the insulation ?? and please forgive my ignorance but would it take a house that has external insulation longer to heat up than having the insulation in the cavity??

Thanks

Viking House

That system is a lot better than Kingspan/Xtratherm sheets in the cavity becuase it cuts out the Thermal looping. But eps has low density and looses heat quickly so you will need to keep your rads on all day to keep heat in the house.
By using denser insulations that hold onto heat longer, in Scandinavia, they can put the heat on for an hour in the morning and work in the room for the rest of the day even when its minus 20 outside.


Viking How would a pumped mineral wool bonded bead compare to eps or are they the same? The cavity area that would be pumped would be 130mm Would this hold heat longer than the eps???

Rockwool is a lot denser than EPS so it should perform a lot better, can you send me info on the product you are considering.

Wouldn't it be easier to build with a 9 inch cavity block and fix the 150mm insulation onto the cavity block and plaster directly onto the insulation.
Why do you need the block on the outside it only keeps the wall damp/cold?

When you externally insulate do you also plaster the insulation as well?? and if so how does this hold up with cracks or gaps forming in the insulation ?? and please forgive my ignorance but would it take a house that has external insulation longer to heat up than having the insulation in the cavity??

You plaster directly onto the external granitewool sheets which are glued to the wall.
The plaster is a special fibreglass mesh supported breathable mineral plaster which is flexible and resistant to cracking in temperature fluctuations of +-30 degrees. If you were building a house with external insulation then there would be no cavity, and yes it would take a bit longer to heat up the house because concrete is always a cold product.
Bring a concrete block into your living room for a few days and sit on it for 15 mins on the third day, your bum still gets cold. This is why they like to use warm building materials in Scandinavia because, what is nearly as important as being cold is the feeling of cold that you get from standing beside cold objects like a concrete wall or a window, the temperature may not be lower in that part of the room but it has the feeling of cold.
In this instance you should consider building your house with warm Taracotta blocks, when you put your hand on a Poroton Taracotta block it will start to give you back heat in 10 seconds, with a concrete block your hand would turn white.

newbuild06

hi Viking

Viking How would a pumped mineral wool bonded bead compare to eps or are they the same? The cavity area that would be pumped would be 130mm Would this hold heat longer than the eps???

Rockwool is a lot denser than EPS so it should perform a lot better, can you send me info on the product you are considering.

THe email address is www.aandainsulation.com

the product is instafibre