Anyone else thinking 'bout giving up using Boards?

Giblet

Why would any admin worth his salt throw in more servers to a problem which occurs because of bad software? I'm sure a server would help but that's throwing away money. Also, look up how many VB sites have search enabled that have as many active users as us. I don't know what you hope to accomplish with this post really. Should "boards.moneybags.ie" drop everything to make one dissenter happy? Oh yeah, the site is shockingly slow, I put that down to ecksor and regi being chuckle brothers type characters. To me, to you, to me, to you, to me, to you, you've ****ing wired the doorbell to turn on the shower ya mook!

ecksor

Software costs more money to fix!

Verita

ecksor wrote:

Software costs more money to fix!

Question regarding slowness. How many posts are reported daily?

ecksor

I haven't counted.

Verita

ecksor wrote:

I haven't counted.

In relation to the server load would stuff like that not be worth looking at? And PM's too? For example PM alerts via email? Thread notifications via email? Are they daily? Instant? Would not the email side cause a server load if the volume was significant? Perhaps making them more timed operations would help?

Beruthiel

Lorax wrote:

I mean what a load of crap! Its not even funny like, its just as well yas arent running a business because it wouldnt do very well. Very unprofessional.

I must be broken then cos I thought it quite amusing.

AN IRISH BULLETIN BOARD!! Yes! That's it!

Novel idea there Gordie, can't seriously see it working though.
5 out of 10 for effort.

ecksor

Verita wrote:

In relation to the server load would stuff like that not be worth looking at?

I have looked at "stuff like that". The reported posts count is insignificant in this context.

And PM's too? For example PM alerts via email? Thread notifications via email? Are they daily? Instant? Would not the email side cause a server load if the volume was significant? Perhaps making them more timed operations would help?

I'm aware of all this. I don't like to be short, but we get 10 people a week who make a short "why don't you do x" post in relation to the slowdown. If you have a specific theory or suggestion, feel free to give details.

Just My View

Suggestion / Theory


I've worked on large databases and have experienced similar problems. Now they weren't the same format but I'm sure the general principles will still apply. The Slowdowns we experienced were never caused by the databases themselves, the indexes were usually the culprits. Basically every time a record is added to the database it's just added onto the end of a sequential file. Usually the record is not re-written so it just stays put. Indexes are more of a problem. Every time a data record is written a new index record is written in every index. Not only that but it it effects the order of records in the index file so a data block containing the index to the index records has to be written. The upshot of all this is that every index file becomes fragmented on the HDD due to all the constant re-writing. Some indexing systems have an un documented upper limit on the number of records they can handle efficiently. They will still work but once this boundary is crossed performance suffers.

We came up with two linked solutions to the problem all of which involved downtime. To minimise the inconvenience in a commercial environment a copy of the original database was made available to users in a read only mode. Browse info but not add.

1st Method.
Decide which index was the most used/important. Turn off all indexes except this one and write a new copy of the database records onto an blank hdd in the sequence of the index so that the database is now in the order of it's most freqently used index. Next delete all indexes and rebuild them from scratch. This is totally different to reindexing as the records in the primary index now match 1 for 1 with the records in the database with little or no file fragmentation. The less important indexes won't have the same 1 to 1 relationship but they will not be disk fragmented either.

2nd Method.
Decide to split the database based on record age. Say split the database into 2 parts. All records before 1st Jan 2004 go into an "archive" database with exactly the same logins and functionality as the "live" database. In boards case I would suggest all threads started before a date rather than records so the integrity of threads remains intact. All thats needed is a slight change to login to got to either database. Obviously make the "live" the default"

Then apply method 1 to both databases. The Archive database will work at an efficiency that won't diminish over time as there will be no additions. Eventually the process will have to be repeated, but it could be 3 years before we reach the same point.

A side order of smaller suggestions.

Instant email notification must be a huge overhead. Don't do instant, do scheduled. Stagger the email sending based on the major forum groupings at say 5/10 min intervals. Arrange the mail sending so that a high volume group is followed on the queue by a low volume group or two. This may help the mail scheduler by not overrunning high volume groups into each other. Don't send emails to anyone on line, if people are that interested thay will probably be watching the thread anyway.

Delete all users who have never posted or who have not posted in say 2 years. let them re-reg later.

Delete all banned users and their posts. To maintain clarity in the threads it may be useful to automatically put a record with something like "Post by Banned User deleted." in the thread.

Delete all thread subscriptions to threads older than 1 month. What harm?



Anyway, no moans or whinges you asked for suggestions. Don't say I didn't try.

Thats my 3c worth. (I've had to put up my prices)

ecksor

Again I don't mean to be short, but there's nothing there that hasn't been considered or suggested before.

How did this come out of me simply stating that buying hardware is less expensive? (in the short term at least). Is there an argument about cost that I'm missing here?

ecksor

I should warn, I'm not really receptive to these discussions, they invariably irritate me.

As a point of detail though, the database details are being looked at separately to the hardware upgrade (as time permits for the admin who is looking at it. I am not that admin).

amp

Ecksor are the servers getting enough electricity? I have a load of AA batteries if you think it will help.

Beruthiel

amp wrote:

I have a load of AA batteries if you think it will help.

They must be Duracell amp

scojones

Yawn. The way you muppets are whinging you'd swear the boards admins wrote vbulletin. If you don't like boards, then don't use it. It's not bloody rocket science. Either shit or get off the pot.

As for slowness, why not create an account on vbulletin.org and voice your opinions about it's rubbish design there? Infact, don't bother. You don't know where the problems with vbulletin lie so it would be pointless.

You know what's pointless? People who complain about things like this and offer no solutions.

ShiverinEskimo

sjones wrote:

You know what's pointless? People who complain about things like this and offer no solutions.

The users of a forum are hardly in any position to offer up solutions. Also the users are what keeps this site up and running at the end of the day and if the masses complain about a problem it should be noted and perhaps treated with concern. Your policy of "if you're not going to ****, get off the pot" isn't exactly offering up much of a solution either and isn't exactly going help the situation.

ecksor

To be fair to Just My View, he did sit down and spend time to communicate some suggestions (although he misread my post if he thought I was generally requesting people to do that).

My problem is that there are lots of niggly details that I don't / won't go into on a public forum. They're usually just operational details that aren't of interest. Now, those details can affect how we plan improvements. Sometimes they delay improvements, sometimes they prevent improvements. Quite often they lead to situations that look farcical to the users and they come along and say so. That's fine, it's valid feedback and if a user is having a poor experience because of our tardiness then why not post about it. Some specific odd detail of a usability or performance problem that they see might offer a new clue to us about something we're trying to puzzle out too.

In terms of offering technical advice, it can be frustrating on one hand because the advice is often fairly obvious, fairly unspecific or fairly impractical (I don't know why people think that we'll approach a feature change/addition to vbulletin lightly. I used to hack at it a lot, then they went and completely changed the codebase on me). When we get someone to put in a lot of work to help things out, those people may endure abuse/criticism that's quite frankly out of order (I'm thinking of people's posts towards BoardTracker here). Contrasting that with not being able to give a simple "this isn't happening because of X" answer and you might start to see where I'm coming from.

Example: we've been saying for months that finance is not the reason delaying the installation of new servers. However, people still come along saying "I'll donate money" or "I'll donate RAM" (which is a sentiment we still greatly appreciate!) and then comments like on here suggesting that we're simply not reinvesting our massive profits in making the users have a better experience. Either people don't notice what we're saying (entirely plausible and understandable) or they don't believe us (irritating).

However, when we get someone coming along and posting on here about our business model (whatever they think that is), our user satisfaction (people have been predicting for years that we're going to lose all our users every time we reach our limits in terms of what performance) then it seems a bit odd to me. In those situations I think that people should just concentrate on telling us exactly what they think is the problem from their perspective and let us concentrate on the overall issues. Interestingly, in my experience, whenever people have had a REAL insight or idea to offer me in terms of the overall issues then they invariably offer it privately over a PM/IM/pint rather than trying to look clever on this forum.

Finally, since it was raised here, I will offer a specific issue that I would appreciate advice about and that is the mails. I've looked at the vBouncer module and decided against installation of it, but haven't gotten around to another method of unsubscribing offending users. Also, I've twiddled with the batch mail settings and seen no noticeable difference whatsoever. Can anyone offer any experiences of either of these things?

Cheers.

Talliesin

sjones wrote:

As for slowness, why not create an account on vbulletin.org and voice your opinions about it's rubbish design there? Infact, don't bother. You don't know where the problems with vbulletin lie so it would be pointless.

I can think of a few things about how vBulletin runs that I am 95% certain lead to it being slower. I'm also 99.9% certain it would be an absolute bugger to change and 100% certain they'd get extremely pissed off with users (especially those who use it on smaller sites) complaining because they liked things the old way.

Just My View

ecksor wrote:

If you have a specific theory or suggestion, feel free to give details.

Easy enough to misread I suppose.

ecksor wrote:

...in my experience, whenever people have had a REAL insight or idea to offer...rather than trying to look clever on this forum.

I wasn't trying to look clever at all but let me say I feel really foolish now if that's any help.

ecksor wrote:

Can anyone offer any experiences of either of these things?

I wouldn't expect too many responses to that, nobody will risk looking clever or being made feel foolish. You killed that one off pretty well.

But there you go. Don't take it the wrong way I know without doubt that you are busting a gut trying to come up with a solution. I also predict that not a single moaner or whinger will utter a word thanks when you do suceed. So I'll say my thanks now and let you get on with it. Thanks.

ecksor

Just My View wrote:

I wasn't trying to look clever at all but let me say I feel really foolish now if that's any help.

That comment does apply to technical issues sometimes but I specifically included it in the paragraph relating to business / popularity for a reason.

I've already acknowledged that you took the time to make some specific suggestions. I'm not having a go at you, I'm just explaining why I'm not receptive. The offer to "feel free" still stands. However, I'm not going to aplogise for my reaction to these discussions.

BTW, you appeared yesterday and EVERY SINGLE ONE of your posts has been a discussion about the failings of boards. I'm more interested in knowing why you don't use your regular account for such communication.

I wouldn't expect too many responses to that, nobody will risk looking clever or being made feel foolish. You killed that one off pretty well.

No, I don't expect many responses to it. I just figured I'd mention it in case people thought I was claiming that we've thought through every possibility or figured out every problem.

Just My View

Sorry I'm not trying to be offensive or wind anyone up.
I just called things as I saw them.
I honestly believe I made fair comments without pushing anyone too far.
The thread was closed so I won't resurrect it again here.

As I said yesterday this is my only account on boards. I did try to register before but i messed up the email address so I gave up on it.
Since you too the trouble to look back through my vast number of posts I'm sure you have already used your admin priveleges to trace my IP. It's not worth the effort. All the readings you get will be false. I'm behind a decent IP screen/generator and have chosen a location at random. I'll probably change it again and again as I always do. I value my privacy. If wanting to preserve that is bannable well that's me bunched then.

And again I'll say it I believe you are a stand up guy and I am not a troll or dual account holder.

ecksor

Just My View wrote:

I honestly believe I made fair comments without pushing anyone too far.
The thread was closed so I won't resurrect it again here.

I'm not saying you didn't. Obviously I only commented on that thread insofar as I was referred to.

As I said yesterday this is my only account on boards. I did try to register before but i messed up the email address so I gave up on it.

Well, in that case I misunderstood your first paragraph of your first post.

Since you too the trouble to look back through my vast number of posts I'm sure you have already used your admin priveleges to trace my IP.

As you might have noticed, I posted on that thread so I saw your comments yesterday.

oleras

Ibid wrote:

Yes you should, I think. It's all accessible anyway, it'd just save me the €2.50 I pay to the CRO to get them. I asked if you I could post these at the Beers, I just forgot. So anyways, the balance sheet as of 2005 is attached. I think most would agree the five admins will have to rely on their charm to get those hookers...

im no accountant.....but that looks like a basic asset sheet, nothing about revenue drawn in by subscriptions or advertising.....if you are going to publish their accounts, you should.

oleras

Gordon wrote:

It's certainly very strange isn't it! It's mad because this very serious thread is a thread about somebody saying that the site has problems and he, and others, may be leaving soon. This is very serious and hotbeddish in my honest opinion. The very fact that Pullmyfinger! "cant see this site existing in its current form for much longer" is extremely worrying and juggernautedly so, to have no posters post means that boards is just an empty shell of a website hanging around in cyberspaces binary 1s and 0s. In fact it won't even be a binary any more - it will simply exist in the place between 1s and 0s, between shadow and light, in a digital void we call 'which space' [battling the evil Thyroids without a smart]. So nobody wants this obviously.

So here we have this thread addressing the top four reasons of boards' future demise: 'The good things are being removed', 'Im not sure that dialup users can use this site it's so slow', 'pointless forums' etc etc. And what are people doing on this thread? The brimstonean audacity would see them posting on this thread! I mean, WTF?! We have 47 replies to this thread. It's astonishing to see so few posts. With boards being ready for doom - this is just emphasising its demise. Plus it's a little off-kilter to have people using this site to post humour and sporranish quirkiness when this particular forum and thread deserves professionalism. It's almost like people are enjoying this thread and enjoying posting on it and enjoying the vehicle that is carrying this thread. But that can't be possible because boards is going to have no users tomorrow or the day after tomorrow because people are leaving.

It's so strange. It's like - boards.ie is dying but the conspiracy is that people are still using the site and members are still signing up. I know that tomorrow boards.ie will not be here, but will be in which space as PullMyFinger! makes valid points. So why doesn't everyone just stop posting and fuelling this farce of a possible future for boards. I would like to say to anyone that is signing up new accounts to make it seem that we have new users every day to please stop. Stop signing up accounts, I know you're doing it, please stop. And I'd like to ask anyone that is posting posts and new threads simply to cover up the fact that boards is dying to stop. Please stop posting new threads and replies - you are digging the conspiracy even deeper, you have been found out and I will siteban anyone doing so.

To end, I would just like to repeat Lorax's statement:

It certainly is just as well! Thank f*ck! You're right, we would be losing clients and getting taken to consumer rights groups and nailed to things! I reckon we should laterally diversify this website www.boards.ie to what I reckon our marketing department reckons that the current userbase in Ireland reckons we should be. What could we turn into though? I mean, we're not a business, we're not a charity... wait...

...wait...

nearly there...

EUREKA! How about this: We market this website not as a business, but as... AN IRISH BULLETIN BOARD!! Yes! That's it!

Because on Irish bulletin boards I think that we can be fairly sure that people will want, nay EXPECT people to chat and post up inane waffle and be funny and humerous and not always sticking to the point and being annoying and being tear-bleedingly disgusting sometimes, because it's what these new fangled bulletin boards are all about. That's it, lets do it. I think I've just solved boards' problems.

I'd like to let our marketing department know that I would appreciate a 10% cut in any direct profit experienced by my new idea of marketing this site as an 'Irish Bulletin Board'. And I'd appreciate any moneys to be directly into my account, I'm not falling for that cheap old coke and hooker trick, how am I meant to claim them back to the taxman eh?

wow.........i actually wasted time reding that.....2 mins of my life....wasted !

WhiteWashMan

you should sue the person who made you read it.

nesf

oleras wrote:

im no accountant.....but that looks like a basic asset sheet, nothing about revenue drawn in by subscriptions or advertising.....if you are going to publish their accounts, you should.

I think you, and most people, strongly over-estimate the amount of information available from the CRO on a company. You don't get a detailed set of a company's accounts.

Edit:

I don't think many people understand what's involved on a site like this financially speaking. I couldn't tell you how much bandwidth for a site like this costs for instance. I know that online advertising revenue is a pittance for the traffic recieved versus the equivilant print/television revenue while most people's ideas of the sums involved in advertising revenue comes from the latter. There are more costs but again most of us don't really have an idea of their scale. We see things in terms of a lot of visitors generates a lot of profit, but we tend to forget that while profit does scale so do running and fixed costs and sometimes a company can lose money from breaking a "visitor threshold" in the short to medium term. It's not a simple linear equation, and can be quite counter-intuitive when you break the numbers down (remember that some costs like servers don't scale well when compared to traffic, a server costs the same initially whether it's going to be fully used or just partially used for instance and some of it's running costs are similar in behaviour).

kippy

If people had taken the time to read some of the other posts in feedback they may be able to see why some of the features have been turned off and also see why the problem may not be solved by buying new/better hardware to run the fora on. But I suppose if people dont have all the background knowledge its very hard for them to understand the various issues at hand. I think there are a lot of posts in the Feedback forum outlining the various issues and thoughts on what the root cause of the problems are.
If people want to post bitching about the site I think they should first have the cop on to reasearch a bit into what the background of the problems are.
As a site which is free to be a member of, I think it is run well as a whole and that the admins do, where possible, advise what they are doing/planning to do to help improve the performance of the site.
As for boards making money. I hope the admins get something back for the time they put in over the years but to suggest that they taking all the money out of the site withou reinvesting is daft-its in their interest to expand and improve the site-then they could probably make a hell of a lot more money from it-which is a good thing-seeing as they have put in the time.
Admins, keep up the good work and dont worry too much about the nay sayers-I am sure yer not loosing too much sleep about this thread.
As for the OP, dont use boards again if you arent happy with it, there are other sites out there which offer a similiar environment for a similiar price.
Kippy

FlutterinBantam

Jaysus.. what i love about boards is the way the mods gang up on the poor fcukers who DARE to register an opinion... just like they are cnunts who have taken a few too many on board and actually put their heads above the frikken parapet.. like they are lower strata of flotsam and jetsam to be shrugged aside and the trustys gathered together and stifle any off the wall opinions that maybe even begin to germinate in the fertile soil of psuedo muppetry....... Geeeet aa frikken looooife

hullaballoo

FlutterinBantam wrote:

Jaysus.. what i love about boards is the way the mods gang up on the poor fcukers who DARE to register an opinion... just like they are cnunts who have taken a few too many on board and actually put their heads above the frikken parapet.. like they are lower strata of flotsam and jetsam to be shrugged aside and the trustys gathered together and stifle any off the wall opinions that maybe even begin to germinate in the fertile soil of psuedo muppetry....... Geeeet aa frikken looooife

Oh my god. :eek:

Did you just have an independent thought?

I'm going to an admin about this.

DublinWriter

oleras wrote:

im no accountant.....but that looks like a basic asset sheet, nothing about revenue drawn in by subscriptions or advertising.....if you are going to publish their accounts, you should.

You'd be wasting €2.50 to get any annual Limited company accounts from the CRO as most companies don't elect to declare turnover and only file abridged accounts.

I don't use boards as much myself since the introduction of the sucky new search system.

DublinWriter

kippy wrote:

If people had taken the time to read some of the other posts in feedback they may be able to see why some of the features have been turned off and also see why the problem may not be solved by buying new/better hardware to run the fora on.

It's hardly rocket science to put a descending date/time index on the main posts table so that the 'cost' of querying listing all posts newest-first doesn't have to crunch through a ton of data.

ecksor

What makes you think that such a query is expensive as things stand?