Shev-no-good-ko?

Rollo Tamasi · 23-09-2006 5:39pm #1

Just watched the Chelsea Fulham game there and I've never been so disappointed in a player as Shevchenko this afternoon.

His touch, his positioning, his link up with Drogba...his general play was woeful. Certainly didn't look like a 45million euro striker anyway.

Do you think it's just a matter of him finding his feet or is he destined to be a flop? A lot of people are saying he'll make it because he's a top class striker and he has proven this in Seria A, but this is the Premierleague....how often have we seen big name players flop in England?

I personally don't think he'll make it. He doesn't look the part in the Chelsea team and I'm not sure if Mourniho wants him there either tbh. I have never seen Jose play a 4-4-2 before but since the arrival of Ballack and Shevchenko he's changed his tactics. Fair enough they got a result today against a gritty Fulham but is Jose's hand being forced by the arrival of a 'big name' player?

el rabitos · 23-09-2006 5:48pm

chelsea are playing the exact same formation as milan play, everything about them this year seems to be geared towards winning the champions league.

shev isnt surrounded by pirlo and seedorf and kaka getting the kind of cutting balls he needs to cut off the defenders shoulders like he did for milan.

he's a bit all over the place at chelsea from what ive seen, drogba gets all the service, shevys not seeing much of the ball so he's coming too deep and then he's losing it or racketing off wayword shots

i dont think its so much a problem with him, like if he was put right back in milan he'd be the same player he was for them, i just dont think the chelsea style suits his style, whearas milans style was perfect for him

just my 2c

Rollo Tamasi · 23-09-2006 5:52pm

el rabitos wrote:

like if he was put right back in milan he'd be the same player he was for them

eh.....what?

wheres me jumpa · 23-09-2006 6:01pm

IMO Chelsea are a glorified long ball team. Huff it to Drogba and he will knock it down to Lampard to strike. Despite the amount of goals they score they are an incredibly boring team to watch. They dont create much in games, how many games have we seen a penalty or corner kick decide the game.

Sheva is an off the shoulder striker thriving on through balls, crosses and balls over the top, few of which are regulars in a Chelsea game.

el rabitos · 23-09-2006 6:37pm

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

eh.....what?

u take player...insert him in previous club...player scores goals. u need a diagram ?

milans style of play suits shevys, chelseas does not.

MisterAnarchy · 23-09-2006 6:53pm

wheres me jumpa wrote:

IMO Chelsea are a glorified long ball team. Huff it to Drogba and he will knock it down to Lampard to strike. Despite the amount of goals they score they are an incredibly boring team to watch. They dont create much in games, how many games have we seen a penalty or corner kick decide the game.

I concur wholeheartedly,Chelsea are a football by the numbers team.

Rollo Tamasi · 23-09-2006 6:58pm

el rabitos wrote:

u take player...insert him in previous club...player scores goals. u need a diagram ?

milans style of play suits shevys, chelseas does not.

a diagram would be nice because i still don't have a ****in clue what you mean here

like if he was put right back in milan he'd be the same player he was for them

Vokes · 23-09-2006 7:03pm

Hehe crossed wires methinks. That did read a little strange.

Think rabitos meant if you put him back in the Milan first eleven right now, he'd still be the same class player.

el rabitos · 23-09-2006 7:09pm

SofaKing wrote:

Hehe crossed wires methinks. That did read a little strange.

Think rabitos meant if you put him back in the Milan first eleven right now, he'd still be the same class player.

thank you

*goes to draw diagram*

Rollo Tamasi · 23-09-2006 7:14pm

ah! right back into the team rather than RB for the team!

ullu · 23-09-2006 7:56pm

These sort of threads annoy me. A world class player who has been a proven goalscorer for over a decade comes to England, has a relatively poor start to his season and people on messageboards like this the world over start questioning his ability.

Bergkamp didn't exactly get off to a dream start when he was signed for Arsenal but that game against Southampton where he finally sorted it out helped him to settle down into the unique English game. All Shevchenko needs is a good game where he gets a goal or two at Stamford Bridge and a bit of time to adapt to the Premiership style and he'll be back in his typical form.

If the OP wants to make a point about a foreign player not adapting to the English game, that's fair enough but thread titles like "Shev-no-good-ko?" are hardly going to help decent debate.

If anyone wants to read a good analysis of why English football is the way it is (and in turn may cause foreign players difficulty when they play in the Premiership), read "Those Feet" by David Winner.

astrofool · 23-09-2006 8:36pm

If message boards are a good enough place to wonder about £7m Peter Crouch, than they're good enough to wonder about £30m Shevchenko.

ullu · 23-09-2006 8:56pm

astrofool wrote:

If message boards are a good enough place to wonder about £7m Peter Crouch, than they're good enough to wonder about £30m Shevchenko.

What is your point supposed to be? Please elaborate or don't bother giving ill-thought out, one line quips.

The difference between Crouch and Shevchenko is undeniable. Peter Crouch has only had one consistent season which was in the second tier of English football about four years ago. He has already had five clubs at the age of 25. He has been a professional footballer for six or seven years and has yet to score one hundred goals. He certainly has his merits as a top level footballer and has shown that in his recent games for England. Shevchenko on the other hand has been a top flight player since the age of 18 and has been pretty much consistently scoring goals every season since. Even when AC had a dry spell where they weren't winning much a few years ago, he was still scoring goals.

Therefore Crouch's ability and potential contribution to whatever side he's in is a worthy topic for discussion as opinion will naturally be diverse, especially given the number and differing qualities of the forwards currently in the Liverpool and England squads. Calling Shevchenko's abilities into question after a handful of games in a notoriously unique league is not worthy of discussion as he has proven throughout the duration of his career that he is one of the best strikers in the world.

el rabitos · 23-09-2006 9:05pm

who questioned his abilitys?

chelsea are not playing to his strengths, when milan werent winning, they were still playing to his strengths, ukraine havent got the best players around, but the team play to his strenghts aswell. my point is, if a team is built to play to shevys strengths he'll score plenty.

at chelsea, right now he wont because chelsea play the ball to drogba, hoping he'll win the ball and shevchenko will win the second ball and make something happen. thats not how he works.

stick him in arsenals team and he'd do better, he'd find it much easier playing off defenders shoulders with the cutting passes arsenal use

ullu · 23-09-2006 9:23pm

el rabitos wrote:

who questioned his abilitys?

chelsea are not playing to his strengths, when milan werent winning, they were still playing to his strengths, ukraine havent got the best players around, but the team play to his strenghts aswell. my point is, if a team is built to play to shevys strengths he'll score plenty.

at chelsea, right now he wont because chelsea play the ball to drogba, hoping he'll win the ball and shevchenko will win the second ball and make something happen. thats not how he works.

stick him in arsenals team and he'd do better, he'd find it much easier playing off defenders shoulders with the cutting passes arsenal use

Who questioned his abilities? Just look at the thread title. Also, in the OP, the following is stated

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

His touch, his positioning, his link up with Drogba...his general play was woeful. Certainly didn't look like a 45million euro striker anyway.

That may have been the case in today's game (I didn't see it) but players, no matter how good they are, will have off days. Maybe if the thread title wasn't so inflammatory (relatively of course) and the OP referred to other performances put in by Shevchenko so far, then it would be a fair question.

I do think he asks a good question about Mourinho perhaps being forced to play Shevchenko due to Abramovich's involvement in the transfer saga. I don't really have an opinion on this yet as I don't know enough about it but if being forced to play one of the world's best players by your chairman is one of your worries, I don't think you can have much to complain about. I don't think Mourinho would stand idly by and have tactics dictated to him by a businessman though.

As for the arrival of Ballack, that was at the manager's behest, wasn't it? Perhaps Mourinho decided to change to 4-4-2 with these players at his disposal, the departure of Duff and the injury to Joe Cole? Iirc, he played 4-4-2 with Porto with Derlei and McCarthy up front though I stand to be corrected on that one...

Sajan · 23-09-2006 9:45pm

I dont think anyone was trying to compare Schevchenko and Peter Crouch. I think Ullu misread what the point was about Peter Crouch. I think he was brought up in the context that no player is exempt from criticism regardless of their qualities.

Fernando Morientes has just come out and claimed that he couldn't handle the physical side of the premiership.. And he has been an a top class striker in Europe for the last ten years as Schevchenko was. Time will tell.. Its far too early to write him off. It would be silly

Villain · 23-09-2006 9:49pm

Schevchenko - No Good???

No Way, he is a world class player and given time to settle he will be a great player in the Premiership just like Tevez will be when he settles.

Rollo Tamasi · 23-09-2006 10:09pm

ullu wrote:

Who questioned his abilities? Just look at the thread title. Also, in the OP, the following is stated

i did put in a '?' in the thread title to encourage discussion. It's not like i'm saying Shev-no-good-ko fullstop.

That may have been the case in today's game (I didn't see it) but players, no matter how good they are, will have off days. Maybe if the thread title wasn't so inflammatory (relatively of course) and the OP referred to other performances put in by Shevchenko so far, then it would be a fair question.

I'm referring to the Premierleague Shevchenko. Has he had one good performance in a Chelsea shirt that would indicate that he is worth 45million euro? I know it's early days but when you splash that much money you expect to see some indication of class. So far there has been none.

I don't think Mourinho would stand idly by and have tactics dictated to him by a businessman though.

I can see Jose leaving Chelsea due to this type of interruption from Roman. I don't think Roman is going to do it too often but Jose is a one man show and I can just picture him walking off in a huff eventually.

irish1 wrote:

Schevchenko - No Good???

No Way, he is a world class player and given time to settle he will be a great player in the Premiership just like Tevez will be when he settles.

He is a top class player. I'd love to have him in my team but thank christ my team ain't Chelsea. I fear that he'll be an ordinary player at the Bridge and won't settle in with the style of play. Back to Italy at the end of the season imo.

ullu · 23-09-2006 10:11pm

Sajan wrote:

I dont think anyone was trying to compare Schevchenko and Peter Crouch. I think Ullu misread what the point was about Peter Crouch. I think he was brought up in the context that no player is exempt from criticism regardless of their qualities.

Fernando Morientes has just come out and claimed that he couldn't handle the physical side of the premiership.. And he has been an a top class striker in Europe for the last ten years as Schevchenko was. Time will tell.. Its far too early to write him off. It would be silly

I know what you mean but I don't think I missed the point. The poster who I was responding to regarding Crouch and Shevchenko obviously didn't read my initial post properly. I was trying to point out that the only debate regarding Shevchenko should be whether he'll adapt to the Premiership or not whereas the Crouch argument would also deal with skill, whether he could ever be called world class etc.

This is a very specific issue and I think the Morientes point you mention is particularly relevant, especially now that he's back in Spain cracking goals in from all angles. I do think Shevchenko has a better chance of fitting into the Premiership but as you say, only time will tell.

ullu · 23-09-2006 10:20pm

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

i did put in a '?' in the thread title to encourage discussion. It's not like i'm saying Shev-no-good-ko fullstop.

Fair enough but I still think the thread title is a bit ott.

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

I'm referring to the Premierleague Shevchenko. Has he had one good performance in a Chelsea shirt that would indicate that he is worth 45million euro? I know it's early days but when you splash that much money you expect to see some indication of class. So far there has been none.

I'd agree that if you'd never seen him play before this season, you'd have a fairly poor impression of him. I thought he played well in the Community Shield and the Middlesbrough game. The only other full game I've seen him play was Liverpool last week and granted, he was fairly anonymous. However it is still far too early in the season to be worried about his cost : performace ratio, his contribution to the halfway point of the season will be a far better indicator.

Carcharodon · 23-09-2006 10:25pm

1. He is a proven great player at top level - champions league, italy....
2. There is no such thing as 45 million euro striker, just cos he cost that much does not mean he adds the equivilant in ability,no player does, price is a reflection of the business side of football and should be taken out of statements like yours. Milan named their price cos they knew Chelsea would match it.
3. Chelsea dont suit his style of play.
4. Every player has to adapt to new club and country.
5. Its the start of the season....

growler · 24-09-2006 12:34am

6 games into the season isn't anywhere near long enough to call this, he's alreafy scored against liverpool in the charity shield and from what i've seen of him to date in a chelsea jersey (more than a few selected highlights on the telly) he will soon be back to his amazing self. Quality will showw through it will take a while for him to get used to his team-mates and for the rest of the team to get used to his positioning / pace / preferences, its not like chelsea don't have the quality in midfield to provide the kind of service sheva can thrive on.

shev-no-good-ko .... :rolleyes:

Seaneh · 24-09-2006 1:42am

The problem with Sheva and chelsea is....

Milan had players with actual passing ability.
Seedorf, kaka, Pirlo can all knock the ball around and spot through balls better than anyone at chelsea.

Chelsea have a habbit of knocking it long, the strikers knocking it down and the midfeilders running on to it, hence lampard scoring 5bazillion goals or whatever last season, Shevchenko is also used to being either The main striker or one of a pair, but a support striker like he is clearly being asked to play for chelsea, as in drogba is the out and out striker and sheva is ment to play off him, it wont work.

Pair Shevchenko with Kalou or Mikel and he will score buckets more goals.

Also it often takes players a few months to adapt to a new league, group or players and style of play, espically when you spend 7 years at a place like milan.

MrJoeSoap · 24-09-2006 2:04am

growler wrote:

6 games into the season isn't anywhere near long enough to call this

My thoughts exactly, give him 25 games at least

wheres me jumpa · 24-09-2006 10:13am

I dont think anybody is doubting his ability. A mate of mine supports AC Milan so Ive had a detailed break down of his career every season for the last 6-8(?) years. The man is a class act, however its his suitability to the Chelsea game is what is in question.

Anam · 24-09-2006 11:10am

Its not like he's missing sitters though,he's just not getting the chances.Things like first touch,you either have it or you dont and Sheva most certainly does,i think he's just lacking sharpness and adjusting to the premiership and his team mates.I also think its a bit unfair to say that Chelsea are lacking in quality passers of the ball,Lampard and Ballack are two of the best passers around.I just dont think Chelsea have found the right system yet,they are hardly playing as well as we know they can.

We saw against Liverpool in the community shield the top quality finisher he can be with the right service.I think against Sofia on wednesday would be an ideal time for him to get a couple of goals.

LostinBlanch · 24-09-2006 11:55am

Well he'd want to hury up scoring soon or he's out of my fantasy football team

You can tell he's worried can't you?

ShiverinEskimo · 24-09-2006 12:08pm

LostinBlanch wrote:

Well he'd want to hury up scoring soon or he's out of my fantasy football team

You can tell he's worried can't you?

I'm in the same boat. And I know the second I switch him out for Johnson or somebody who is form both player's form with swap.

I guarantee the second he is out of my team he puts a hattrick in..

Rollo Tamasi · 24-09-2006 12:10pm

i got rid of him 2 weeks ago for Saha

ShiverinEskimo · 24-09-2006 12:25pm

And now Saha's gone dry. Nice one - I blame you for United's poor run. (arsenal and reading).

I reckon there's a few people switching Sheva out for Johnson/Kanu and the like and then using the change to boost their midfield. But I'm terrified to do the same because he is pure quality - and I know as soon as he gets on his feet there'll be no stopping him...

This is why I hate fantasy football...and love it.

Xavi6 · 24-09-2006 12:40pm

Bit of a pointless thread at the moment considering it's only six games in. Threads on new signings should only really be started around November when the settling period should be over.

growler · 24-09-2006 1:08pm

Seaneh wrote:

The problem with Sheva and chelsea is....

Milan had players with actual passing ability.
Seedorf, kaka, Pirlo can all knock the ball around and spot through balls better than anyone at chelsea.

Chelsea have a habbit of knocking it long, the strikers knocking it down and the midfeilders running on to it, hence lampard scoring 5bazillion goals or whatever last season, .

that's just bull.

Drogba and Crespo scored 29 goals between them last season, lampard scored 20 quite a few of which were from frees and panalties. Goals from Duff, Terry, Robben, Cole and even Gallas contributed to our success. How it is a "problem" that almost anyone on the pitch can and does score for Chelsea is way beyond me, I see this a major strength in the chelsea team , not being overly reliant on the front two to score all the time and it makes defending against a chelsea attack so much harder to defend against. Drogba's contribution in assists and build ups is key to allowing chelsea's attacking midfielders to get on the score sheet.

Saying that Essien, Makalele and Lampard don't have "passing ability" is comical, next you'll be telling me Cech can't save shots on goal and that Terry should be a winger.

wheres me jumpa · 24-09-2006 5:51pm

growler wrote:

Saying that Essien, Makalele and Lampard don't have "passing ability" is comical, next you'll be telling me Cech can't save shots on goal and that Terry should be a winger.

I would never associate Makele and Essien with creating goals. And also when I watch Lamaprd the amount of attempts he has at goal is phenomenal, with all those attempts at goal doesnt leave much ball for creating goals!

Just my 2 cents, not gospel, just my opinion.

gosplan · 24-09-2006 9:56pm

I'm with Seaneh on this one.

I'd also add that playing in England generally means he has more work to do...or rather more work is expected of him.

The way milan used him, he didn't seem to do much until he scored. Basically if you see him 5-6 times in a game getting on the ball he'll have 3-4 shots.

Uk audiences expect more activity up front.

Also as mentioned he doesn't have kaka, pirlo etc.

chiller · 25-09-2006 8:50pm

give him a season to get use to the pace and the pyhsical side of things. i think he will frustrate mourniho this season and wont score many goals but next season he will cause some damage. the boy is still learning english as well. he has proven himself at milan and i believe he will do it at chelsea just wont happen till next season!

gustavo · 25-09-2006 10:00pm

The man is pure class cant believe he is being doubted , maybe the lack of subtlety in the English game might be to his detriment though

dohboy · 25-09-2006 10:38pm

I think foreigners can get short shrift when they land in the Premiership. It's takes a long time to bed in, to get used to the style of play, to adapt to the lifestyle.

Roy Keane said in that interview recently that he was too hard on Veron, expecting him to be brilliant straight away. Keane judged this after his own experiencies being in Glasgow with Celtic, a relatively short trip away from his family.

Maybe if more players from these isles ventured abroad, they themselves , the media, and the fans might have a better appreciation of the problems facing foreign players, and as a result not be so hard on them.

gustavo · 25-09-2006 11:49pm

Last time i checked UK was a foreign country so a lot of our guys do move abroad

PiE · 25-09-2006 11:49pm

growler wrote:

Saying that Essien, Makalele and Lampard don't have "passing ability" is comical, next you'll be telling me Cech can't save shots on goal and that Terry should be a winger.

If you hadda said "Robben, Ballack and Lampard don't have passing ability...", that sentence wouldn't have been anywhere near as hilarious.

Rollo Tamasi · 26-09-2006 12:16am

chiller wrote:

give him a season to get use to the pace and the pyhsical side of things.

How old is he now though? time isn't on his side if he needs a year to settle in. I think he'll need a year too myself. Crazy money to spend on him at his age.

ullu · 26-09-2006 1:14am

gustavo wrote:

Last time i checked UK was a foreign country so a lot of our guys do move abroad

An Irishman moving to the UK to play football is far different than an Eastern European/Latin American/Asian/whatever nationality moving to the same country. Irish people are exposed to British media and culture everyday through their TV stations, newspapers, books etc. We've also grown up watching English football week in, week out so you'd know what to expect.

So a move to the UK shouldn't cause an Irish person too much trouble unless they're particularly prone to homesickness. It's a totally different situation for someone who doesn't speak the language and isn't used to the climate or style of play.

finnpark · 26-09-2006 2:16pm

el rabitos wrote:

chelsea are playing the exact same formation as milan play, everything about them this year seems to be geared towards winning the champions league.

shev isnt surrounded by pirlo and seedorf and kaka getting the kind of cutting balls he needs to cut off the defenders shoulders like he did for milan.

he's a bit all over the place at chelsea from what ive seen, drogba gets all the service, shevys not seeing much of the ball so he's coming too deep and then he's losing it or racketing off wayword shots

i dont think its so much a problem with him, like if he was put right back in milan he'd be the same player he was for them, i just dont think the chelsea style suits his style, whearas milans style was perfect for him

just my 2c

They let him in Italy so their share prices would go up. Football in Italy was just one big fidddle last season.

patmac · 26-09-2006 3:30pm

Probably has a lot on his mind at the moment which could be affecting his game like what size yacht, how many Ferraris, 20 or 30 bed mansion, etc.;)

Dempsey · 26-09-2006 4:10pm

el rabitos wrote:

who questioned his abilitys?

chelsea are not playing to his strengths, when milan werent winning, they were still playing to his strengths, ukraine havent got the best players around, but the team play to his strenghts aswell. my point is, if a team is built to play to shevys strengths he'll score plenty.

at chelsea, right now he wont because chelsea play the ball to drogba, hoping he'll win the ball and shevchenko will win the second ball and make something happen. thats not how he works.

stick him in arsenals team and he'd do better, he'd find it much easier playing off defenders shoulders with the cutting passes arsenal use

I agree. Shevchenko is quality being wasted at Chelsea like Essien

growler · 26-09-2006 9:33pm

Dempsey wrote:

I agree. Shevchenko is quality being wasted at Chelsea like Essien

why are they wasted at chelsea?

Vokes · 26-09-2006 9:34pm

Essien (along with Drogba) is Chelsea's best player this season by far. Definitely not wasted.

gustavo · 26-09-2006 11:15pm

patmac wrote:

Probably has a lot on his mind at the moment which could be affecting his game like what size yacht, how many Ferraris, 20 or 30 bed mansion, etc.;)

Yes because of his new found wealth where as Milan paid peanuts:rolleyes:

Dempsey · 27-09-2006 9:14am

SofaKing wrote:

Essien (along with Drogba) is Chelsea's best player this season by far. Definitely not wasted.

Essien is playing well, but seeing him at the World Cup, I think Chelsea aren't letting play his most effective position, therefore he's being wasted

iregk · 27-09-2006 10:28am

Well the one thing I worried about when Chelsea signed Sheva is weather or not he would be suited to the way Chelsea play. Now I've watched Milan for years and they are a joy to watch. the play with the ball on the deck and usually work quick movements through the middle or from a cross.

Chelsea dont really do either. They don't cross the ball much so his excellent aerial ability is being wasted. They also don't play with extremely fast 1 touch attacking through the middle with Sheva playing off the last defender. The one time they did this, Charity sheild, he scored a great finish!

Jose was half telling the truth when comparing the styles of play. Yes they line up the same but thats where the similarities stop. Milan play totally different to Chelsea. Chelsea's full backs are not allowed get forward as much and as such cannot strech the pitch and provide crosses. Essien is restricted way too much and doesn't have the attacking freedom that he is afforded at international level. I for one looking at him think he could be the best player in the prem if only he was allowed to! These reasons are playing to Drogba's strenght but not Shevas and thats why he is suffering. Its what I feared at the start of the season.

For anyone to question the man abilities is one extremely shallow and fickle football fan. No hold on, I'm not even going to give you the grace of being called a football fan. He has consistently banged in goals for fun all over the continent and won many awards for his play. The man is a class act and for my money when on form the best striker in the world. Don't insult your selves by ignoring the last 10 years and only concentrating on the last month and then come on and create threads with a title of Sheva-no-good-ko!!!

Rollo Tamasi · 27-09-2006 10:47am

agree with everything in your post except this bit..

iregk wrote:

For anyone to question the man abilities is one extremely shallow and fickle football fan. No hold on, I'm not even going to give you the grace of being called a football fan. He has consistently banged in goals for fun all over the continent and won many awards for his play. The man is a class act and for my money when on form the best striker in the world. Don't insult your selves by ignoring the last 10 years and only concentrating on the last month and then come on and create threads with a title of Sheva-no-good-ko!!!

where did i question his abilities?
i know he's a class striker. I just can't see him making it at Chelsea at the minute. The thread title is a play on his last name anyway.. I was being creative

And please note the question mark in the title thread!

growler · 27-09-2006 1:08pm

iregk wrote:

Chelsea dont really do either. They don't cross the ball much so his excellent aerial ability is being wasted. They also don't play with extremely fast 1 touch attacking through the middle with Sheva playing off the last defender. The one time they did this, Charity sheild, he scored a great finish!

But, chelsea have the ability and the talent to play whatever way JM decdies he wants to play, with Cashley Cole, Robben, SWP able to get forward and cross, Essien, Ballack and Lampard to attack through mid field on the ground, I think that people vastly overstate chelsea's reliance on the long ball.

Tonight will be a good test for Sheva.

Shev-no-good-ko?

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