Shev-no-good-ko?

iregk

growler wrote:

But, chelsea have the ability and the talent to play whatever way JM decdies he wants to play

growler as a blues fan I totally agree with your comment however the point I am making is that whilst they have the ability they rarely change style. Chelsea play football in a wonderfully patient way. Jose does change things up during games when its not happening and usually this works. But in order to get the best out of Sheva he would need to completely redo the way the blues play and thats not going to happen.

Rollo Tamasi

iregk wrote:

growler as a blues fan I totally agree with your comment however the point I am making is that whilst they have the ability they rarely change style. Chelsea play football in a wonderfully patient way. Jose does change things up during games when its not happening and usually this works. But in order to get the best out of Sheva he would need to completely redo the way the blues play and thats not going to happen.

Then you would have to wonder about the thinking of spending 45million euro on him if the team/manager isn't going to bring the best out of him.

Could you imagine how many kids from Leeds Chelsea could have tapped with 45million....

ullu

Rollo Tamasi wrote:

Then you would have to wonder about the thinking of spending 45million euro on him if the team/manager isn't going to bring the best out of him.

Could you imagine how many kids from Leeds Chelsea could have tapped with 45million....

The €45 million is irrelevant when it has to do with Chelsea.

Raskolnikov

I remembered this thread while I was watching Shev in action last night.

No excuse from Shev tonight. Chelsea were rampant against Barcelona in the Champions League last night. Most of their play went through the middle, almost no long balls played last night. Lots of fast attacking play and breaks, Shev was given time and space on more than one oppurtunity and spurned his chances each and every time, including one absolute sitter. You could see just how furious Mourinho was with him towards the end of the match.

Now I'm not saying that Shev isn't/wasn't a great player. But all this talk of Chelsea not being good enough for Shev or their play not suiting his style is nonsense. I mean how the hell can Drogba, a player with the first touch of Tony Adams and the finishing skills of Kylie be outperforming a World Player of the Year? I'll tell you why, it's because Drogba is out to prove his detractors wrong this season. What he lacks for in skill, he's making up for in grit and determination (hell, a little bit of diving too!). Did you see him celebrate his goal last night? It was clear that scoring against Barca meant a lot to Drogba. Shev on the other hand is just happy to turn up every week and collect his £200,000 a week from Roman.

el rabitos

well, so far he's doing a good job at making kezman look like he had a good time in london, and he didnt have the team altered to suit his style.

sundula

he was very disappointing last night. But as long as Chelski keep winning he will ecsape the from the flak he should be getting. €45mil was crazy for someone of his age his is begining to look like his old partner Rebrov - Spurs must be laughing.

Has Mourinho the balls to drop Roman's under performing baby?

Carcharodon

He is lacking confidence, that is the only problem he has at the moment, dont think it is fair to throw accusations that he is just collecting his pay check and doesn't care about scoring

I can guarantee that he is working as hard as he can, anyone that plays soccer knows that confidence is everything.

It was not too long ago when people were mocking Drogba, very fickle people, its very easy to throw abuse at a player that is under performing, i wonder how these people will react when he starts scoring again....

MrJoeSoap

Still reckon he would have scored if Essien put him through last night, granted he did miss a good opportunity.

He'll come good.

Raskolnikov

el rabitos wrote:

well, so far he's doing a good job at making kezman look like he had a good time in london, and he didnt have the team altered to suit his style.

In fairness, people expected too much of Kezman. Because he scored for fun in a mickey mouse league, they expected that to transform to a higher stage.

el rabitos

Raskolnikov wrote:

In fairness, people expected too much of Kezman. Because he scored for fun in a mickey mouse league, they expected that to transform to a higher stage.

did man utd not expect the same of RVN?

eirebhoy

Raskolnikov wrote:

No excuse from Shev tonight.

He has the best excuse you could have, he's really lacking confidence. More important than ability.

sundula

€45mil for a striker who has confidence issue's ?

Rubbish real top class players dont suffer from lack of confidence - if they are physically fit and match fit then they should have no excuses. Shearer, Roy Keane, RVN, Ole Gunnar, Henry, Romario - people with pedigree and quality like Shve dont have lack of confidence issues or shouldnt have. Thats what seprates them from ordinary players. Maybe they should send him to a head doctor.

If he was 18,19 maybe 21 there might be some question over his confidence coming to a new country/culture but no excuse's at his age/experience who has played in massive games and won alot of silverware with one of the worlds biggest clubs.

MrJoeSoap

sundula wrote:

€45mil for a striker who has confidence issue's ?

Well what else could it be? You can hardly doubt his ability after his record with Kiev and Milan.

Carcharodon

sundula wrote:

€45mil for a striker who has confidence issue's ?

Rubbish real top class players dont suffer from lack of confidence - if they are physically fit and match fit then they should have no excuses. Shearer, Roy Keane, RVN, Ole Gunnar, Henry, Romario - people with pedigree and quality like Shve dont have lack of confidence issues or shouldnt have. Thats what seprates them from ordinary players. Maybe they should send him to a head doctor.

If he was 18,19 maybe 21 there might be some question over his confidence coming to a new country/culture but no excuse's at his age/experience who has played in massive games and won alot of silverware with one of the worlds biggest clubs.

lol

Firstly Shevchenko did not value himself at 45 million, thats down to the idiots at Chelsea who payed that amount just because they have the money.
No player is worth that amount so it should not be brought into the argument, he is a human being for gods sake, he is not going to be the perfect player just because he has a high value.

You obviously dont have a clue about soccer because all of the players you have just mentioned have had a dip in form at some stage in their career, every striker goes through a rough patch.

Confidence is part of every players game and if it is low, it will always affect performance, its obvious...

eirebhoy

sundula - Probably every person in the world is susceptible to confidence issues. I find really easy to see a player lacking confidence. Maybe it's the fact that I went through it all the time playing Sunday league football. Your touch is crap, you're all uptight and not thinking straight, you actually don't even want the ball a lot of the time.

You mentioned Henry. He has watched a team being built around him at Arsenal. All his teammates and fans know how good he is. He's so confident he's cocky. Was he the same at Juve? I doubt it very much. I can guarantee you that if Shevchenko was at Milan and they brought in Ballack, Lampard, Terry, Drogba, etc. He'd be the player sticking out. He'd be the player giving orders and the one that'd be trying to help Drogba get a goal.

There's no point in debating it if you don't understand confidence but everyone is affected by it at some stage.

ffs David Healy's confidence is so high playing for N.Ireland that he would outshine most players.

sundula

My point was that confidence is what seperates these guys - and as a Sunday League player i wouldnt be surprised if you suffered from confidence - but your not one of the highest earning professional footballers in the world with Serie A and Euro Success to your name, a legend in your own country who has just cost 45mil.

Sure with players of lesser standard such as D Healy confidence plays a big part and thats why he plays in the championship and not the champions league.

Henry didnt suffer lack of confidence at Juve he was a wide man it was Wenger who played him up front and discovered his best position. I watched him at Juve and he wasnt a diaster palyed with confidence, shot from distance and pasted players - his time there is debately deemed a failure compared to his time at Arsenal - but he cost them 10mil sterling so its not a sif Juve gave him away. As you brought it up he is a perfect example of how a top player seperates himselt from an ordinary player.

This is their job and it has been for years, in Shevs case over 2 decades as a pro and from his champ league exploits where he scored a hat trick against barcelona when he was with Kiev to a 26milliion puond move to Milan and everything that followed never once has he lost confidence and thats why he got from Kiev to London - confidence isnt an issue thats my opinion


oh - dip in form does not equate lack of confidence - unless maybe you dont understand football and want to blame confidence for every players poor performance cos its easier for you to understand -

Kingp35

I can understand where sundula is coming from. Players of the calibre of Shevchenko should be scoring goals. If he really is one of teh worlds best strikers then he should be scoring more goals than he is. Simple as that. Yes he is suffering from confidence but he shouldnt be because he should be scoring goals. Fact of the matter is that, up until this point, he has been a complete and utter failure and I would have dropped him by now.

If you ask me its more to do with the English game than it is to with his lack of confidence but the two are linked. Its clear to me that Shev is struggling big time with the pace and lack of time that you get on the ball in England compared to Serie A where its crawling pace alot of the time. This in turn makes the player lack confidence because he is struggling to play well.

To be honest if he is lacking confidence or if he is struggling with the league is kind of irrelevant. The fact is he has been very very poor so far and is looking more and more like a lop every time I see him play.

Carcharodon

Kingp35 wrote:

Yes he is suffering from confidence but he shouldnt be because he should be scoring goals.
.

Well we wouldn't be having this discussion if that was the case would we ?

Kingp35 wrote:

Its clear to me that Shev is struggling big time with the pace and lack of time that you get on the ball in England compared to Serie A where its crawling pace alot of the time.
.

He also scored once or twice outside of Italy....CL...Int...

eirebhoy

sundula wrote:

confidence isnt an issue thats my opinion

Shevchenko is majorly lacking in confidence. I couldn't care if that doesn't make him a great striker. It's really obvious to see just as it was really obvious to see he was crapping himself taking the peno against Liverpool.

Pepe LeFrits

Shevchenko just looks a little unsettled to me. I think the massive expectation of him combined with his departure from Milan who he obviously cared about is getting to him a little. I don't think he's especially lacking confidence - obviously he's not on a confidence high, but he still seems to believe in his own ability (and rightly so). It's more like he's trying a little too hard, trying to force things a bit. A lot of his first touches are heavy and his finishing is a bit wild. Once one or two go in, he'll start to score freely again.

sundula

I think as has been rightly said his biggest problem is the tempo of the premier league, its so much faster than italy. There is a huge difference, in italy teams are more technical and focus on holding on to the ball and passing to feet. Score a goal and shut shop. That doesnt happen in the prem. You end up with less techniaclly gifted players running after everything.

In my opininon english tempo is his biggest problem, lack of time, lack of space, playing in a new team which itself has additional new players, new strike partner, new system of play, he was years at milan.

Maybe he is being asked to do different things come to different postions. Maybe Mourinho is really happy with his contribution - he might be drawing defenders away from Drogba(who is playing the best he has ever played). They have max points in their champ league group and are 2nd in Prem.

gosplan

As well as the pace of the English game I think you have to look as what he's being asked to do. I remember when Aldridge went to Spain he said how diffrent it was that he'd be doing well to get possession 5 or 6 times in the game and that he was expected to score once or twice if he did.

The English idea of a striker and the Italian/Spanish idea of a striker are vastly different for me.

Shevchenko is used to recieving the ball where he's one good touch away from a shooting opportunity. This has still happened a couple if thimes but he's fluffed it which for me shows lack of confidence derived from the fact that he's not used to what he's doing.

sundula

eirebhoy wrote:

Shevchenko is majorly lacking in confidence. I couldn't care if that doesn't make him a great striker. It's really obvious to see just as it was really obvious to see he was crapping himself taking the peno against Liverpool.

he had the confidence to take the penalty.

Fluffed chances dont show lack of confidence in ability - not shooting at all might demonstrate this. He has been shooting and has been getting in the positions - he needs very little more time to get use to the tempo, the system and his team mate.

Dropping him for a game or maybe introducing him on as a sub might help him get off the mark

Jivin Turkey

sundula wrote:

Fluffed chances dont show lack of confidence in ability

I take it you have never played up front for a team so.

Fear of missing is a strikers worst enemy.

Just like you will see strikers take speculative efforts where chances of scoring are minimal when they have already bagged a couple.

DerekD Goldfish

He also scored once or twice outside of Italy....CL...Int...

Indeed 2nd top goal scorer in CL history
also 2nd top goal scorer for the 2nd most sucesful team in european history
He is a great player talk from the likes of Dolan saying he lost his legs a few years ago is rubbish.
Altough chelseas style doest suit him I think he will score soon.

sundula

Jivin Turkey wrote:

I take it you have never played up front for a team so.

Fear of missing is a strikers worst enemy.

Just like you will see strikers take speculative efforts where chances of scoring are minimal when they have already bagged a couple.

No never played up front

I dont think players of his quality and self belief are afraid of a couple of wides, that has kind of being one of my points. If every striker took a couple of seconds to think about there chances of hitting the target fans would have been deprived of some of the greatest goals we have seen and the the shot count and excitement would be well down. If Andy Cole had taken this view with Man U he would never have put his boots on.

I have seen shev shoot from outside the box with Chelski - he hasnt been afraid to have a pop. In soccer like everything there is a certain degree of luck - things might or might not run for you. Fluffed chance could stem from the fact he is being tightly marked and closed down. He might be having to relaese his shots half a yard or so earlier than he would like to

If fear of missing is their worst enemy why take speculative efforts at all ?

Jivin Turkey

sundula wrote:

No never played up front

Well I can understand how you feel how you do to some degree so.

sundula wrote:

I dont think players of his quality and self belief are afraid of a couple of wides

Yes but when "a couple of wides" turns into "a couple of games" the paper talk starts and then he can't get away from it.

sundula wrote:

If fear of missing is their worst enemy why take speculative efforts at all ?

Because he knows he has the ability. I'm sure once he starts scoring he will begin to score absolute peaches.

I'm telling you, for a striker short on confidence, if he thinks for even just a split second of missing before striking a ball, that could be the difference between it ending up in the back of the net or in the stands.

The thought of missing isn't even entertained by a striker high on confidence, hence they invaribaly don't.

The perfect example of this is penalty kicks. RVN used to be the best in the business at it, until he missed one, then he went and missed a few in a row because in the back of his mind was that feeling of "I'm not invincible anymore". That is purely down to confidence.

sundula

Yes but when "a couple of wides" turns into "a couple of games" the paper talk starts and then he can't get away from it.


I doubt many players even read thrashy red tops let alone care about what they say and he has always got a good reaction from the fans

Because he knows he has the ability. I'm sure once he starts scoring he will begin to score absolute peaches.

You probably missed my point. I wasnt particularlly talking about Shev - i only said why take along range shots at all because you said fear of missing was a strikers worst enemy and if they were so afraid then they wouuldnt

I'm telling you, for a striker short on confidence, if he thinks for even just a split second of missing before striking a ball, that could be the difference between it ending up in the back of the net or in the stands.

Or it could be the new tempo and tighter marking ? hmm? Maybe he thinks " god this guy is going to mow me down if i dont pull the trigger now"

Confidence does play a part in the penalties. But they are different from open play as they are more a lottery than any situation that occours during ordinary play with much great tension and pressure.

growler

lovely goal from Sheva today, the guy was obviously delighted to finally bag one, shame the gob****e ref decided to book him for celebrating. Hopefully this will see him find his form, he is getting chances but again today his touch let him down a few times.

Rollo Tamasi

growler wrote:

lovely goal from Sheva today, the guy was obviously delighted to finally bag one, shame the gob****e ref decided to book him for celebrating. Hopefully this will see him find his form, he is getting chances but again today his touch let him down a few times.

why? he practically jumped into the crowd and had his entire team around him, took a while for the game to restart after the celebration.

his goal was good, he had a decent header and one or two moments but overall, as you said, his touch was poor enough. Hopefully he will get better.

sundula

Shevchenko - on rumours of his Italian return - skysports.com

"Everyone has been writing about me being sent on loan to Milan. I still haven't discussed this question with the management, but the bosses themselves probably still haven't decided.

"But if it happens, I'm ready to pack my bags. I'm a completely self-confident person. If I don't suit somebody then I'll go back to Italy, no problem, and prove how good I can still be"

iregk

This all stemmed from the fact that allegedly during the week Jose and Sheva had a chat and he was asked to change how he plays as he doesn't suit the Chelsea way of playing. Now I'm sorry but if your going to go out and by who at the time I regarded as the worlds best striker then you play to his strenghts. You don't ask a striker to change what made him great just to suit you.

sundula

Agreed -

The problem is probably that Jose didnt buy Shev - Roman did. This looks like the first signs to confirm this. Bascially without directly saying it Shevchenko is implying its not his fault the goals arent coming is saying its not his fault but Mourinhos system that is to blame

iregk

Well in fairness I didn't buy the whole we play the same as Milan do. Anyone watching the two sides can see that they are glaringly different. The fact is that Chelsea's style of play does not suit Shevchenko. He played a certain way at Kiev and he played a certain way at milan. In Milan they altered things to get the best from him where as at Chelsea Jose wants him to alter his style to suit Chelsea.

Personally I think Sheva could be a great buy for the blues but the one big thing I was worried about when the bought him was that he wouldn't fit into their pattern.

Jivin Turkey

Shevchenko has scored six in 19 for Chelsea, which is hardly a shocking return seeing as he is playing off a leading striker.

I didn't think it would take him long to settle given his quality and that he speaks fluent English, but to write him off at this stage is ridiculous.

His goal the other night was him back at his best. Classy and extremely clinical finish.

PHB

I'd be happy to see him go, just cause if he does regain form I'll be scared ****less, but does it really matter? If he leaves, Chelsea will just spend 50 million on someone like Villa in the winter

sundula

Mourinho likes players to change to his style, he doesnt change his style to suit players. Duff went backwards there after a great start to his career and he doesnt look like getting back to his creative best at the moment. Wright Philips is going backwards, they stopped Crespo from scoring and Gallas wasnt to happy with the system either.

Seaneh

Jivin Turkey wrote:

Shevchenko has scored six in 19 for Chelsea, which is hardly a shocking return seeing as he is playing off a leading striker.

I didn't think it would take him long to settle given his quality and that he speaks fluent English, but to write him off at this stage is ridiculous.

His goal the other night was him back at his best. Classy and extremely clinical finish.

He doesn't speak ANY english!
The reason he moved to london is because his wife was sick of having to speak Italian to him as she doesnt speak Ukrainian and he doesn't speak english, and she wanted thier son to grow up speaking english.

During the world cup reporters were asking him questions in english and he kept getting really annoyed and kept repeating "I do not understand, no english!".

Jivin Turkey

Seaneh wrote:

He doesn't speak ANY english!
The reason he moved to london is because his wife was sick of having to speak Italian to him as she doesnt speak Ukrainian and he doesn't speak english, and she wanted thier son to grow up speaking english.

During the world cup reporters were asking him questions in english and he kept getting really annoyed and kept repeating "I do not understand, no english!".

My apologies, I work on more of a presumtion than a fact due to his wife being American

sundula

Its definitely to early to write him off

Seaneh

haha, it is a fair presumption really.

I only know all this because I'm a rossoneri.

iregk

Yeh Seaneh is spot on. his wife wanted to move the family to an English speaking country so their kids would grow up speaking English. You'd think she'd learn Ukranian!:D

Seaneh

iregk wrote:

Yeh Seaneh is spot on. his wife wanted to move the family to an English speaking country so their kids would grow up speaking English. You'd think she'd learn Ukranian!:D

Yeah, or just dry her eyes and learn to deal with Itlaian!

Why is it that men will always give into a stunning six foot tall blonde model?

He is wasted in the english atlethics league (God knows they play feck all football!).

Raskolnikov

Shevchenko had another stinker of a game against Everton on Sunday. It's really getting embarassing for Shev at this stage, running into dead-ends, unable to control incoming passes, can't beat a defender to save his life. I really don't understand all this talk about his game not suiting the Premier League. Take a look at these google videos

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3236088863411610913&q=shevchenko
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2457934025922625836&q=shevchenko

His goals come from long-balls, headers from crosses, free-kicks, tap-ins and beating several defenders and then scoring from the edge of the box. The last of which Shevchenko was absolutely lethal from. How many times did you see Shev shrugging off a defenders challenge or using his trickery to beat his man in those? Now, how many times have you seen him do anything like that this season?

My reckoning is that Shev has already given up on trying to make a name for himself in England. Chelsea will write off their loss on him and he'll return back Italy.

event

Raskolnikov wrote:

Shevchenko had another stinker of a game against Everton on Sunday. It's really getting embarassing for Shev at this stage, running into dead-ends, unable to control incoming passes, can't beat a defender to save his life. I really don't understand all this talk about his game not suiting the Premier League. Take a look at these google videos

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3236088863411610913&q=shevchenko
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2457934025922625836&q=shevchenko

His goals come from long-balls, headers from crosses, free-kicks, tap-ins and beating several defenders and then scoring from the edge of the box. The last of which Shevchenko was absolutely lethal from. How many times did you see Shev shrugging off a defenders challenge or using his trickery to beat his man in those? Now, how many times have you seen him do anything like that this season?

My reckoning is that Shev has already given up on trying to make a name for himself in England. Chelsea will write off their loss on him and he'll return back Italy.

i think if he had given up, he wouldnt be staying behind for an extra hour every day to work in training

give him time, it can take players a while to adapt to a new league and a new style of play, especially when you had a set way of playing for around 4-5 years

it took henry around half a year to get adapted

too many times do fans expect players to adapt to the PL easily, its a very fast league and can take some time to get used to

sundula

He just needs time to get use to the pace and physical nature of the Premiership

iregk

indeed, the two real glimps of the old Sheva that Chelsea got were in the sheild against Liverpool and against Bremen. Took the ball down beat a man and hit a thunderbolt from 30 yards. Chelsea scored from the resulting corner.

He is finding his feet but his still looks extremely heavy legged.

Raskolnikov

sundula wrote:

He just needs time to get use to the pace and physical nature of the Premiership

Look at the videos I linked to, it's the player that Shev should be. Winning most 50-50 tackles, shrugging off and powering past defenders, using pace and trickery to beat his man, excellent finishing, winning headers, etc. Maybe he doesn't have the pace anymore but he should certainly be more than physical enough for the Premier League.

event

Raskolnikov wrote:

Look at the videos I linked to, it's the player that Shev should be. Winning most 50-50 tackles, shrugging off and powering past defenders, using pace and trickery to beat his man, excellent finishing, winning headers, etc. Maybe he doesn't have the pace anymore but he should certainly be more than physical enough for the Premier League.

how many games are those clips taken from?

sundula

There is no comparsion in the pace of the Prem and Serie A. England is much higher tempo with less time on technique. It will take him a while to adjust to having less time on the ball especially at his age. The physical nature of both countries is also very different. He will just have to adapt to it and if it up to Chelsea how fast they expect him to adapt.