Paternal leave

Khannie

What's the craic with paternal leave?

Someone told me that I'm entitled to exactly zero paid days off when baby comes. :eek: Is that true?

Nevyn

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/employment/holidays_and_leave/paternity_leave.html

Paternity leave is not recognised in employment law in Ireland. In other words, employers are not obliged to grant male employees special paternity leave (either paid or unpaid) following the birth of their child. Annual leave taken following the birth of a child is treated in employment law in the same way as leave taken at any other time of the year. It is at the discretion of the employer to decide who can and cannot take annual leave at a given time.

Some employers in Ireland, (for example, the civil service), do provide a period of paid leave from work for male employees following the birth or adoption of their child. Fathers employed in the civil service are entitled to a period of special (paternal) leave of three days with pay in respect of children born on or after 1 January, 2000 or for children adopted after 1 January 2000.

The employee usually applies for this leave in writing before the birth or adoption. Arrangements where employers provide this type of leave following the birth or adoption of a child are the result of negotiation and agreement reached between the employer and employee. These arrangements are not covered by employment law so if an employer agrees to provide time off to an employee as paternal leave for a specified period (either with or without pay), it is entirely discretionary.

While male employees are not entitled under Irish law to either paid or unpaid paternity leave, they may be entitled to parental leave. Parental leave entitles both parents who qualify to take a period of up to 14 weeks' unpaid leave from employment in respect of children up to eight years of age.

There is the option of Force majeure leave

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/employment/holidays_and_leave/force_majeure.html

Force majeure leave

If you have a family crisis the Parental Leave Act, 1998 as amended by the Parental Leave (Amendment) Act 2006 (pdf) gives an employee a limited right to leave from work. This is known as force majeure leave. It arises where:

* for urgent family reasons the immediate presence of the employee is indispensable
* as a result of an injury to, or illness involving a close family member.

Force majeure leave does not give any entitlement to leave following the death of a close family member.

A close family member is defined as one of the following:

* A child or adopted child of the employee
* The husband/wife/partner of the employee
* Parent or grandparent of the employee
* Brother or sister of the employee
* Person to whom the employee has a duty of care (that is, he/she is acting in loco parentis)
* a person in a relationship of domestic dependency with the employee, including a same-sex partner (since 18 May 2006)
* Persons of any other class (if any) as may be prescribed

The maximum amount of leave is 3 days in any 12-month period or 5 days in a 36-month period. You are entitled to be paid while you are on force majeure leave. See “How to apply” below for more details. Your employer may grant you further leave.

You are protected against being victimised for taking force majeure leave or proposing to take it. Being victimised includes dismissal, unfair treatment and an unfavourable change in your conditions of employment.

A lot of company's will give 3 days leave with out you applying for Force Majeure leave check with the terms and conditions of your employement.

Horrendus but true you are not entitled to time off to be there at the birth or to care for the mother and child or other children who are affected by the arrival or to time off when mother and baby come home for the first 2 weeks.

Khannie

Thanks for that Thaed.

Thaedydal wrote:

Horrendus but true you are not entitled to time off to be there at the birth or to care for the mother and child or other children who are affected by the arrival or to time off when mother and baby come home for the first 2 weeks.

Absolutely shockin' stuff. Just shockin'. Unless there are some complications we're going to be having a natural birth. I just think it's shockin' for my employer to expect my wife to be up to the task of looking after baby all by herself the minute she arrives home from the hospital (I know plenty of single mothers do this, and it's not the end of the world ofc, but it is pretty nasty. I certainly wont be just taking time off to spend with baby. A large part of it will be about giving my wife recovery time).

Stupid country. :mad:

My employer will probably give me zero days off (I was told this unofficially by my boss).

Stupid company. :mad:

For a minute there, I considered handing in my notice. Then I remembered that I have a baby on the way. Haha. The irony.

Nevyn

Basically they expect for the Grannies and the Aunties and the other married women who have kids and don't work to pick up the slack and rally around the family with the new arrival and look after the mother, new baby and other existing children if there are any.

How likly is this in modren Ireland where families live miles from extended family and the chances are garnny and the rest of the family have jobs and thier own children in creches ?

There are many new mammy's or those with new arrivals who don't have nieghbours to keep an eye on them or a community to rally around them due to the commutor nature of many housing estates and houses empty all day while people and parents are working.

Khannie check your terms and conditions in your contract and see what it says.

Khannie

We're fortunate enough that my mum and my wifes parents live in the same town as us.

Thaedydal wrote:

Khannie check your terms and conditions in your contract and see what it says.

It's a startup. There's definitely nothing in my contract about it. I'll push the "cop on please" card and see how far that gets me. The guy I'll be pushing it with has four kids. I wonder if that will make him a total b*llox ("no worries raising childer") or totally sympathetic?

gerrycollins

as all ready mentioned you get feck all I had to take two weeks off as my holidays but this was on the books but also a plan B was put in place should the baby come early (and it did)

for me im on top of the food chain in my place so i suppose i was one of the lucky ones,plus my boss wasnt too pushed if i took a few extra days, instead when the wife was in hospital for the week after and with the visiting hours I ended up in work for a few hours each morning then hospital for the rest of the day

Sleipnir

My dad decided to take two days off when I was born. There was much whispering the office for weeks about that, he said.

Then again my mate's dad was the the all-ireland final when his sister was born, so it's not all bad.

nlgbbbblth

I work in banking and we get ten days paternal leave [totally separate to our regular annual leave]
My wife went into labour around midnight on a Tuesday so I rang work the following morning and said 'my leave starts now....'

With Easter falling in the middle of it, I wasn't back to work for nearly three weeks.

TempestSabre

Khannie wrote:

What's the craic with paternal leave?

Someone told me that I'm entitled to exactly zero paid days off when baby comes. :eek: Is that true?

Some places don't pay maternity leave either. Welcome to the celtic tiger

loyatemu

TempestSabre wrote:

Some places don't pay maternity leave either. Welcome to the celtic tiger

but the government does provide maternity benefit (alright, its a pittance, but its better than nowt).

IME most employers are pretty understanding and will at least let you take annual leave when the baby is born (provided you've warned them theres a baby on the way). If they're being jerks about it then maybe its time to start looking for another job.

Tazz T

Unbelievable, but 'Family-friendly' Ireland is the only country in Europe that has no paternity leave. Paternal leave is unpaid and designed for when a child is sick etc. Frankly, I don't know anyone who has ever taken it.

Negotiate with your boss. If they don't come round to your way of thinking, try to put them in your own shoes, make them feel guilty. If all else fails, go sick. If they can't respect your rights, then you do likewise.

I managed to negotiate a week's paid leave. There's also the option of asking for unpaid leave - a bit of a cop out but essential if there are complications, such as C-Section.

Nevyn

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/birth/benefits_and_entitlements_relating_to_birth/maternity_leave.html

If you become pregnant while in employment in Ireland, you are entitled to take maternity leave for a basic period of 22 weeks. At present, at least two weeks have to be taken before the end of the week of your baby's expected birth and at least four weeks after. You can decide how you would like to take the remaining 16 weeks. Generally, employees take two weeks before the birth and 20 weeks after. You can also avail of an additional 12 weeks unpaid maternity leave.

The entitlement to maternity leave from employment extends to all female employees in Ireland (including casual workers), regardless of how long you have been working for the organisation or the number of hours worked per week.

Payment during maternity leave is normally provided through Maternity Benefit, which is a Department of Social and Family Affairs payment. Some employment contracts allow for additional payment rights during the leave period, for example, that the employee will receive full pay, less the amount of Maternity Benefit payable

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/birth/benefits_and_entitlements_relating_to_birth/maternity_benefit.html

Maternity Benefit is paid by the Department of Social and Family Affairs to women who have paid a certain number of PRSI contributions on their own insurance record and who are in recognised work up to the first day of their maternity leave. The last day of work can be within 16 weeks of the expected date of arrival of your baby.

The PRSI contributions can be from employment or self-employment - classes of PRSI that count are A, E, H and S (self-employed).

If you are employed you must have:

* at least 39 weeks PRSI paid in the 12 month period before the first day of your maternity leave; or
* at least 39 weeks PRSI paid since first starting work and, in general, at least 39 weeks PRSI paid or credited in the second last complete tax year before the year in which your maternity leave commences. For example, if you are going on maternity leave in 2006, the relevant tax year is 2004. If a tax year later than the relevant tax year has ended before the start of your maternity leave (in this case 2005) contributions in that tax year may be used to help you qualify for maternity benefit.
* or
* at least 26 weeks PRSI paid in the relevant tax year and at least 26 weeks PRSI paid in the tax year prior to the relevant tax year. This provision applies to you if your maternity leave began on or after 23 March 2001. If you failed to qualify on the basis of the contribution conditions up to 23 March 2001, you are only entitled to claim maternity leave for any period of unexpired certified leave after 23 March 2001.

Nevyn

Where to we fit in with the rest of europe ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parental_leave

Statutory Paternity Leave in Europe:

Ireland is right down the bottom of the European league table:

Norway 4 weeks paternity leave ("use it or lose it")

Finland 18 days paid paternity (proposing to raise it to 25 days)

Denmark 14 days paid paternity

France 2 weeks paid paternity

Italy 2 weeks paid paternity

UK 2 weeks paid paternity (from 2003)

Sweden 10 days paternity leave

Austria 10 days paid paternity

Portugal 5 days paternity

Belgium 3 days paid paternity

Spain 2 days paternity

Holland 2 days paid paternity

Luxembourg 2 days paid paternity

Ireland NO entitlements to paternity leave

TempestSabre

loyatemu wrote:

but the government does provide maternity benefit (alright, its a pittance, but its better than nowt).

IME most employers are pretty understanding and will at least let you take annual leave when the baby is born (provided you've warned them theres a baby on the way). If they're being jerks about it then maybe its time to start looking for another job.

Better than nowt might still not be enough though.

Put it this way, if the baby sick, or the mother is, you can quickly go from a situation of two salaries to no salaries, very fast, especially if the hubby has to take unpaid leave, or is self employed or a contractor etc. A lot of people aren't aware of this beforehand. In some places depending on your grades, or if you are management or not has an impact on what perks like paid maternity or paternity leave.

As a hubby you might not be entitled to any paternity leave off at all, paid or unpaid. You can take parental (different to paternity) leave which is usually unpaid. There are conditions to it though and an employer can delay you taking it.

http://www.oasis.gov.ie/employment/holidays_and_leave/parental_leave.html

Its at times like this you'll really notice the difference between Ireland and some other european countries. We're way behind.

TempestSabre

I think the parental leave is a bit unfair too.

Its fair enough that you just can't walk off a job without agreeing the terms of your parental leave before hand. That justs makes sense. But for many people they can't afford to take load of time off work unpaid in one block like that. So I'm sure a lot of people might want to take 2 days a week, or something like that. But if you split the parental leave the employer can refuse it completely.

So if you can take the time off enmasse unpaid, parental leave is effectively useless to you. Because you can't afford to take it enmasse.

Kashkai

I for one am sick of the constant drone from the Politicos about "the economy". What about family life, shouldn't that come first and foremost? I'd like to think that looking after our kids was the number one national priority but I'm probably just naive.

I did get three days paid paternity leave off when my kids were born but there was an atmosphere when I phoned the boss and told him that I'd also be taking parental leave for a month as my wife had been through a horrendous c-section. Now even though this leave was unpaid, I was left with the impression by my employers that I was leaving everyone else to take up the slack (about time some of them did some work anyway IMO). Running around looking after 3 kids and a convalescent wife is not my idea of a holiday but this didn't garner any sympathy with the powers that be in my job. This has left me with a bad taste in my mouth and I'm now considering moving jobs or becoming a stay at home Dad (which really appeals to me).

Remember there's an election coming up folks so grab those eejits by the throat when they goo and gaa at your kids and tell them we want more maternity, paternity and paid parental leave or little Johnny or Mary will suffer an unfortunate bout of reflux all over the poor politician:D

Nevyn

It is the drive to under value the value of stay at home parents and to get women back into the work force that has communities falling apart and the old and the young suffering as a result.

squire1

Prosperous Dave wrote:

I for one am sick of the constant drone from the Politicos about "the economy". What about family life, shouldn't that come first and foremost? I'd like to think that looking after our kids was the number one national priority but I'm probably just naive.

I did get three days paid paternity leave off when my kids were born but there was an atmosphere when I phoned the boss and told him that I'd also be taking parental leave for a month as my wife had been through a horrendous c-section. Now even though this leave was unpaid, I was left with the impression by my employers that I was leaving everyone else to take up the slack (about time some of them did some work anyway IMO). Running around looking after 3 kids and a convalescent wife is not my idea of a holiday but this didn't garner any sympathy with the powers that be in my job. This has left me with a bad taste in my mouth and I'm now considering moving jobs or becoming a stay at home Dad (which really appeals to me).

Remember there's an election coming up folks so grab those eejits by the throat when they goo and gaa at your kids and tell them we want more maternity, paternity and paid parental leave or little Johnny or Mary will suffer an unfortunate bout of reflux all over the poor politician:D

This could turn into a political discussion very quickly but Dave, you are spot on. This Government wants everybody at work all of the time. That is why childcare costs are going through the roof (high demand). A platry €1000 per child under six, while welcome, is just a drop in the ocean. But it's not about money, it's about quality of life and the ability of people to afford a good quality life without dropping out of society altogether.

YES, there is an election coming up. Make your voice heard and make your vote count.

Khannie

I think we're ok to stray off topic a bit here since the original post has been properly answered.

TBH, I felt that the last budget went a good way towards providing for parents. A thousand euro a year is a serious chunk of change. Certainly a good percentage of the average employees annual tax bill returned to them.

My wife's a stay at home mum, and that really suits us. Everyone's a winner. We're in the fortunate position to be able to afford it though. Sure, it was a big financial hit (she was on very good money) and the downsides to that are all to evident, but at the end of the day we're eating healthier food, spending more time together, etc. etc.

Any politician that encourages this kind of family life ticks a box for me.

squire1

I great that you are in a position to afford for your wife to be a stay at home Mum. This was the norm not too many years ago.

The reality is that in Ireland today, it is difficult to afford the basics in life like a mortgage, food, fuel, refuse, clothes, transport, utilities etc on one salary. I'm not saying that it is all the Governments fault but the continued inflation in prices of basic necessities along with increased stealth taxes make if difficult for a lot of families to manage. Family life is being eroded under the pressures of modern Ireland. A couple of weeks paternity leave will not greatly effect this issue but the lack of any peternity leave just goes to show the way our society now values it's family unit.

Rev Hellfire

Parental leave does not have to be taken in one block. I for one have it spread out over 1 day a week. Ahh four day weeks plus working from home, sure its almost not right calling it work
I admit an employer does not have to agree to the split up but few will refuse. The drop in wage is a killer though.

Nevyn

Expectations are higher then what they used to be.
It is possible to have a stay at home parent but it does mean sacrifices.
Not having a huge mortguage be begin with.
Not having holidays out of the country, not having two cars ect

But as the cost of living rises making ends meet will get harder and harder.
Honestly I am glad that we bought a house when we did 6 years ago I would hate to be looking a 1,000 + mortguage a month.

Tazz T

Our child is a year and a half now and my partner has still stays at home with her. We've just got by living in an apartment.

But now, we've bought a house for the extra room, I have no idea how we'll cope on my wage alone so my partner will have to go back to work.

This really aggrieves me as it's only as a result of the Celtic Tiger that Irish families need two breadwinners. I'd prefer our child had one of us there to bring them up. By sending them to creches and seeing them for an hour in the evening, we're turning them into robots and preparing them for the rat race.

I just don't think it's the way it was meant to be. Once the childminding costs are taken into account, we'll still just be getting by, and we won't be there for our daughter. I think that's a damning inditement on the way we've become.

Nevyn

I agree how are we to know our children, pass on values, build bonds,
create trust, know what is going on in thier lives if we are rushing about and not spending enough time with them.

Kashkai

Thaedydal wrote:

I agree how are we to know our children, pass on values, build bonds,
create trust, know what is going on in thier lives if we are rushing about and not spending enough time with them.

Spot on - We left our first daughter into a creche (a very good one I'll admit) from the age of 12 months on. Now while she appeared to be very happy there, each day I felt horrible pangs of guilt at waking her up in the mornings and rushing to get her changed, dressed, out into the car and dropped off at the creche in time for my wife and I to catch the train.

The evenings were no better as we were stressed out rushing home to collect her from the creche and then get her fed, changed and dressed for bed. At most we go to spend an hour or two with her each weekday before she went to bed. In our own personal view, that was not how we would have considered raising our daughter but as the Celtic Tiger was starting to bite then, we had no option but for the two of us to work to pay the mortgage.

We're (slightly) better off now and since our twins were born, my wife has stayed off work to look after them. The fact that the cost of childcare for the twins and after school care for our eldest daughter was quoted at €500 a week has helped to make the decision for us.

As for the €1,000 a year childcare support supplement, this is not paid for our eldest daughter even though she would require after school care. The €2,000 a year we receive for the twins would pay for four weeks childcare for our three kids - what about the other eleven months?????:mad:

This government is anti family in my view. Remember McCreevy's attempts to individualise the tax system and thus discriminate against stay at home parents. The €1,000 a year is a paltry drop in the ocean when it comes to paying the exhorbitant cost of childcare. If this government was serious about looking after our kids, they'd introduce paid and statutory paternity leave of at least 2 weeks, paid parental leave, and heavily subsidised, or even state run creche's. However, I won't hold my breath.

Ickle Magoo

Khannie wrote:

What's the craic with paternal leave?

Someone told me that I'm entitled to exactly zero paid days off when baby comes. :eek: Is that true?

Yup..unless your company has it's own T&C's...:(

TempestSabre

Rev Hellfire wrote:

Parental leave does not have to be taken in one block. I for one have it spread out over 1 day a week. Ahh four day weeks plus working from home, sure its almost not right calling it work
I admit an employer does not have to agree to the split up but few will refuse. The drop in wage is a killer though.

"Few will refuse" - bit of a sweeping generalisation there Hellfire

Unfortunately thats not the reality for everyone.

embee

Hi Khannie,

When I had my baby in February, my partner had booked Annual Leave for the five days after my due date (January 30th, which was a Monday). Unfortunately, my baby didn't arrive until February 12th, so his Annual Leave was pointless. He is self-employed, which meant he had to do some major restructuring of the rosters to get time off.. and even at that, he only took 4 days off, then he HAD to go back to work, as the business can't run itself. It is absolutely ridiculous that there is no Paternity Leave in this country. To be honest with you, I needed his Paternity Leave more than he did - I was very stiff, sore and tired for a couple of weeks after the birth and could have done with him to lighten the load, but such is life.

When is your wife due, btw?

Khannie

That sounds nasty embee. Very unfortunate to have to gamble like that.

She's due on the 8th of January. Can't wait.

unkel

Khannie wrote:

She's due on the 8th of January. Can't wait.

The very best of luck to you. Becoming a parent was the best thing that ever happened to me!

And indeed, I didn't get any time off work. I had to use my annual holidays. Very sad state of affairs in a country as rich as Ireland. Priorities gone horribly wrong methinks...

RainyDay

embee wrote:

When I had my baby in February, my partner had booked Annual Leave for the five days after my due date (January 30th, which was a Monday). Unfortunately, my baby didn't arrive until February 12th, so his Annual Leave was pointless. He is self-employed, which meant he had to do some major restructuring of the rosters to get time off.. and even at that, he only took 4 days off, then he HAD to go back to work, as the business can't run itself. It is absolutely ridiculous that there is no Paternity Leave in this country. To be honest with you, I needed his Paternity Leave more than he did - I was very stiff, sore and tired for a couple of weeks after the birth and could have done with him to lighten the load, but such is life.

I don't understand - If he is self-employed, who was he 'booking' his leave with? Himself? If there was Paternity Leave, he (as the employer) would be funding his own paternity leave?