Rules on rights on childs regilion

qwertplaywert

hi.i am 14 and an aeitiest since last year. i have no fate in god whatsoever, yet i was reared a catholic,and my mam still makes me go to mass.
does she have aright to force her beliefs on me?is there any law that prefents it?
do u guys think i should be free to decid e for myself or that my parents should decide till im 18?

Nevyn

Did you make your confirmaton ?
If so you took on the responsiblity to be responsible for your own faith and that state of your soul.
Your parents in accordance to catholic dogma were relased from the vows they made at your baptism when you retook those vows yourself at your confirmation.

I would suggest that you go and read up on what you swore to do at your confirmation and look at it from that angle.
From the catholic churches point of view you are resposnible for yourself but you still need to honour your parents wishes to a point.

leeroybrown

If your parents believe strongly that you should go to mass then you're probably in the awkward position that while you are living under your parents roof you may have to go to mass. For some people that extends well past 18.

I spent years going to mass because it was less hassle than making a point of not going. I'd just sit down the back bored going throught he motions. Those years of listening to sermons, etc did little for my respect of the Catholic church. These days my rule is funerals, weddings and diplomacy for situations involving awkward relatives.

There as a pretty decent thread on PI a while back started by someone in a similar positon. I've dragged it up in search - this is it. (BTW - don't post on it as it's been dead for a few months now)

SarahMc

Well you have rights under the UN convention on the rights of the child

Article 14: Freedom of thought, conscience and religion
The child has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, subject to appropriate parental guidance and national law.


But Ireland has a woeful record of implementing the convention, so unless you are planning on taking your case to the European Court, you may have to go to mass.

Nevyn

The rights of the child as laid out in under the UN convention were never ratifited into Irish law.

SarahMc

But we did ratify it, therefore becoming 'State Party' to it. (Somalia and the US being the only countries who didn't)

Nevyn

The rights were never added into the consitution here and if the rights are not afforded under the consituation then they don't exsist.
This was reported all over the news media last week as the goverments have had 13 years to sort this out and it has not been done.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0920/children.html
http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/8937018?view=Eircomnet

daiixi

Is she really forcing her beliefs on you by making you go to mass? It's obviously something which she believes in and is important to her.

Try sitting down with your mum and having a chilled conversation explaining your beliefs and then try to come up with a compromise. Maybe that you'll go once or twice a month, without complaint. Alternatively have you tried talking to your priest about the situation?

To be honest I think that while you're under 16 years of age your parents are still fully responsible for you and your mum isn't really asking too much of you.

greenkittie

Go along to make her happy then once you leave home just stop. I used to spend mass thinking about how nice sunday dinner was going to be

Ayla

I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but I'll chuck in my 2 cents for what they're worth...

People for generations have been going to church (of any religion/denomination) despite what they may believe. It's something most of us have probably had to deal with.

When you move out of the house you'll have have to break yourself off from your parents in a lot of ways, religion being one of them. Therefore I feel that as long as you're living under your parent's house you should show respect for their beliefs and suffer through church in silence. Then when you move out you can feel free to do whatever you want.

But out of curiosity, if posters had responded that children do have legal rights to practice the religion of their choice, what would you have done - taken your mom to court? Did you really think that one through?

playwert

Thaedydal wrote:

Did you make your confirmaton ?
If so you took on the responsiblity to be responsible for your own faith and that state of your soul.
Your parents in accordance to catholic dogma were relased from the vows they made at your baptism when you retook those vows yourself at your confirmation.

I would suggest that you go and read up on what you swore to do at your confirmation and look at it from that angle.
From the catholic churches point of view you are resposnible for yourself but you still need to honour your parents wishes to a point.

i made my confirmation,but i was 11 and non caring bout regilion...i had no real opinions on it so why should that count for anything?

Nevyn

Well then I suggest you go and learn about what you vowed to do when you made your confirmation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_(sacrament)

Personally I think confirmation is a rite which should be held later on in a persons life when they are old enough and mature enough to understand that they are undertaking.

Part of your vows at confirmation is to be responsible for your own spiritual practices and the state of your own soul.
Your parents were responsible for it and vowed to be so at your baptism and when you make your confirmation they relquish it into your own care.

Like I said take the time to research where you stand as a confirmed adult in the faith that you were brought up.

r3nu4l

Hey OP, there is no harm in going to mass on a Sunday, I know you probably view it as a waste of time etc. but even if you don't believe it can be time well spent.

I had a 'crisis of faith' (whatever that means!) between the ages of 14-19. It was only when I moved from home and had the time and space to think for myself that I really sorted out my beliefs.

Anyway, how can mass be useful? Well, use the time to think about the past week, did you achieve anything you wanted to achieve, could you have done something better, how can you improve things next week? The church refers to this as 'quiet reflection' and whether you believe in God or not, you should be reflecting because it's only by examining your own actions and reactions to events that you can really improve yourself as a person, not for God or for your parents or friends but for yourself.

I spent years at mass doing this, using mass time as the only time in the week where I could really think about things for a while with the only interruptions being stand up, kneel down, sit, stand up etc...

Also, I'm sure your parents think that they have your best interests at heart and even if you feel they are misguided it is only right to respect their wishes, after all they probably go to work every day to earn money so that you can be fed, they probably cook dinners and wash clothes for you, the least you can do is say 'okay, I don't really belive this and it's boring but I'll make the effort without a fuss'.

luckat

I've been thinking about this since the original post, and I'm kind of torn.

On the one hand, of course r3 and others are correct: Mass is a good time for what Catholics used to call "profitable meditation" - sorting out what's going on in your life, thinking about the next week, planning things out a bit, "examination of conscience" to see how you can do things better, rewards for yourself for how well you've done in the week before.

On the other hand, qwerty surely has the right to any belief including non-belief: if we can't be free in what we believe, how can we be free?

Qwerty, I don't know if your parents can legally force you to attend a religious service - somehow, I doubt it!

How you sort this out with them is going to be an important decision for you, though. However indignant one feels, it's good to be able to deal gracefully and tactfully with other people.

daiixi

Thaedydal wrote:

Part of your vows at confirmation is to be responsible for your own spiritual practices and the state of your own soul.
Your parents were responsible for it and vowed to be so at your baptism and when you make your confirmation they relquish it into your own care.

Like I said take the time to research where you stand as a confirmed adult in the faith that you were brought up.

You are a smart cookie Thaedydal!

RainyDay

The best people to advise on rights which you may/may not have in this case are the Equality Authority. Give them a call.

I fundamentally agree with the advice that you should 'suffer in silence'. I don't believe that Mass is intended to be a suffered experience for anyone. I would recommend straightforward non-confrontational chats with your parents to try to find alternatives. Maybe you prove to them that it's not a matter of being lazy to offering to carry out some kind of community or voluntary service on Sunday mornings instead?

sudzs

The way I dealt with the almost exact (I would have been just 17) same situation after months of complaining about having to go to a ceromony I found to be utterly ridiculous bull, was to just stay in bed one Sunday morning! What could my poor mother do... and it was the last time she called me on a sunday morning for mass!

And very soon afterwards, my father stopped going to mass as he too was an atheist and had only been going to give me a good example!!!

But agree with some other posters, you should sit down with them and talk about it. Explain things from your side, how you feel etc...

It's not right that they are forcing you to be a hypocrite.

Ickle Magoo

OP,

I am a life-long athiest & my parents made me go to church saying I could stop going when I came up with a good enough reason. One day when I was 12 or so I sat them down & told them exactly why I didn't believe in God & why I didn't want to go to church & they accepted what I said & I didn't have to go again. Could you try sitting your mum down & carefully explaining your beliefs so she realises it is not just beligerance or laziness, you actually don't have any faith?

Forcing you to go to church in the vague hope that you will want to remain religious really doesn't serve anyone - it may even serve to deepen your resolve...however, it won't kill you to go for another few yrs to keep your mum happy if that is your only option. Best of luck.

Clodidah

heya. im 15 and the same, brought up catholic, but have no belief in god whatsoever. My dad never went to mass except on christmas and funerals,weddings,etc..and even then it was just to keep my mum happy. I used be forced to go every sunday, untill i was about 13, when i realised how much ( in my opinion) bull the whole catholic thing is. But after i explained to my dad how i felt he told me it was fine i didnt have to go to mass, it pissed off my mother as my little sister was making her communion that year and she didnt want her put off religion by what i was doing. My older sister has since come to the same conclusion as me and has also been told to go with what she belives....as my extended family is quite religious, we are both required to go to mass when my granny or other relations are around, but thats ok cos i just spend the whole time sleeping. Really just try explaining how you feel because she would probably understand.

qwertplaywert

Clodidah wrote:

heya. im 15 and the same, brought up catholic, but have no belief in god whatsoever. My dad never went to mass except on christmas and funerals,weddings,etc..and even then it was just to keep my mum happy. I used be forced to go every sunday, untill i was about 13, when i realised how much ( in my opinion) bull the whole catholic thing is. But after i explained to my dad how i felt he told me it was fine i didnt have to go to mass, it pissed off my mother as my little sister was making her communion that year and she didnt want her put off religion by what i was doing. My older sister has since come to the same conclusion as me and has also been told to go with what she belives....as my extended family is quite religious, we are both required to go to mass when my granny or other relations are around, but thats ok cos i just spend the whole time sleeping. Really just try explaining how you feel because she would probably understand.

i done that yesterday AGAIN,,,and when she said why shouldnt i go to mass,and i said cause i have no belief in god,she said get them quear ideas out of my head......

fobs

Some parents are more understanding than others and some parents believe rightly or wrongly that they should get you to go to mass. If you have tried reasoning with them and this doesn't work then maybe they are just not open to your beliefs and you have to go along with them for now. Try going to "please them" for another while and again approach them about it in another few months so they realize its "not a phase".

I was never forced to attend church from when I was 15 or so but other friends were and my husband had to go every week until his father passed away so every parent differs.

Its funny as my husband won;t go to mass now except for funerals,weddings and Christmas as he has negative assosiations with going wheras i will now go gladly again as an adult not having gone to mass for years as a teenager. Parents who force their kids to go to mass often leave a negative impression of religion on them.

If your relationship and home life is good in every other respect then maybe "grin and bear it" for another while and see how it goes...

qwertplaywert

fobs wrote:

Some parents are more understanding than others and some parents believe rightly or wrongly that they should get you to go to mass. If you have tried reasoning with them and this doesn't work then maybe they are just not open to your beliefs and you have to go along with them for now. Try going to "please them" for another while and again approach them about it in another few months so they realize its "not a phase".

I was never forced to attend church from when I was 15 or so but other friends were and my husband had to go every week until his father passed away so every parent differs.

Its funny as my husband won;t go to mass now except for funerals,weddings and Christmas as he has negative assosiations with going wheras i will now go gladly again as an adult not having gone to mass for years as a teenager. Parents who force their kids to go to mass often leave a negative impression of religion on them.

If your relationship and home life is good in every other respect then maybe "grin and bear it" for another while and see how it goes...

ok.i can see myself having troubles later on in life if i get married and have kids.......i dont want them anywhere NEAR regilion

Clodidah

hell if all else fails just dont get up! shes not gonna drag u to mass in ur pyjamas...and she probably wont want to be late!! do this every week and eventually she'll get bored and stop trying!!

Brian017

qwertplaywert wrote:

ok.i can see myself having troubles later on in life if i get married and have kids.......i dont want them anywhere NEAR regilion

Isn't that a tad hypocrytal of you???

Anyway, I think parents shouldn't force their beliefs on their children. I definately won't push any beliefs, thoughts on me. When they old enough to understand the concept of religion they can be whatever they want and they'll have my full backing.

As someone said, keep emphasising that you no longer belief and don't want to go, so she knows it's not a phase. She''ll get the picture enventually. Good luck.

Beruthiel

qwertplaywert wrote:

i done that yesterday AGAIN,,,and when she said why shouldnt i go to mass,and i said cause i have no belief in god.

Did you just say I don't believe in god
or, did you go into a detailed, logical, thoughtout explaination on why you don't believe and the reasons that have brought you to this decision?

When I was a teenager I went along with it as it was more trouble than it was worth to fight with my mother over it. Sometimes it's easier just to ride it out. If your mother truly believes in god, like mine does, then she will have fear for your poor soul and the fact that she feels it her job to take care of it as your mother.
If you are going to challange your mother however, you need to read up on it and have your facts and reasons straight. Saying I don't believe is not enough, you need solid reasons.

Perhaps you would find this forum useful

qwertplaywert

Clodidah wrote:

hell if all else fails just dont get up! shes not gonna drag u to mass in ur pyjamas...and she probably wont want to be late!! do this every week and eventually she'll get bored and stop trying!!

i tried this.......she threntened me with no pocket money........me cant live without 20 euro a week.......comics along cuase me about 10 euro weekly

Nevyn

Get a paper route or negoicate doing other chores for your pocket money.

magnumlady

I totally understand where you are coming from. I was bought up Catholic and in my opinion forced to do my Communion and Confirmation, at the time I didn't really understand what it was all about, but it was the whole thing of the big day out etc.
While I was still at school I was made to go to mass, which I did because as my parents were supporting me I felt I had to abide by their wishes.
When I started working I stopped going to mass.
I do believe in God but just not the whole mass catholic thing, I think you can pray and reflect (if you want to) without the need to do it through a 'middle man'.
The thing that made me turn against it the most was the hypocrites that went to mass, said sorry and then carried on the same way again.
Anyway to cut a long story short, I'm now married, we got married in a 'free church' which means its not any religion, the mother wasn't too happy but I explained how I felt.
I have two children, both had naming ceremonies. They didn't make their communions/confirmations but they learn about religion, if they decide in the future that they want to be catholics then I will support them in whatever they decide. Its their lifes and I'm only here to guide them and support them.
Best of luck to you.

Ayla

qwertplaywert wrote:

i tried this.......she threntened me with no pocket money........me cant live without 20 euro a week.......comics along cuase me about 10 euro weekly

Honestly (and this will be brutal), one thing that has struck me about this situation from the OP was the youth (or at least young mental attitude) of this poster. Forgive me, but OP, if your priorities are with comics and your weekly allowance, can you really expect your mother to understand that you're "mature" enough to make your own religious decisions?

I completely agree with most posters here who're suggesting you sit down with your mother and explain things, but from your own comments you've made it clear that you may not be ready for such a clear, logical and calm discussion.

You have to decide what's more important to you - going to a religious service which you may not believe in, or growing up enough to take responsibility for finances (ie: comic-book buying). 14 is plenty old enough to be getting odd jobs for neighbors/family/etc. Try Thaedydal's advice of a newspaper route. I was working and earning money long before I was 14, and you can too if you really want to.

Talliesin

qwertplaywert wrote:

i tried this.......she threntened me with no pocket money........me cant live without 20 euro a week.......comics along cuase me about 10 euro weekly

No, actually you can indeed live without comics. If it's really that important to you to not go to mass, you can put up with that.

On the other hand you could go to services because it's a polite thing to accompany friends and relatives to those services that it is appropriate non-believers be in attendance at (which includes just about all Christian services, though not actually partaking in sacraments).

luckat

Qwerty, the important thing to do here is to learn to negotiate.

I'm not saying that because you're 14. I think most people in their 50s and 60s still haven't learned to negotiate, and it's the most profitable and socially useful skill there is.

Look at this from the point of view of the advantages various aspects offer to the people involved.

For instance, if you're at Mass, does that mean your mother's neighbours look at her with more respect, as a mother whose family are happy and well adjusted? That might greatly affect her point of view.

And yourself: you're taking 20 smackers a week from the Ma, but you're having a big stand-off about religion. Hmm.

If you don't want to go to Mass, you're going to have to find a way to negotiate this - and the ultimate best-result goal of any negotiation is that *both* people get what they want.

So your mother is going to have to feel that the result she gets is worth whatever she cedes to you. And you have to give something too.

She wants you to grow up to be a good person (which I'm sure you are already, if you're serious enough to be thinking deeply about whether God exists). Maybe another 'act of faith' might satisfy her?

Perhaps she might be able to live with your not going to Mass if you did an hour's voluntary work with disabled people or old people instead?