Will Bertie resign over payments???

marcsignal

;-)

constitutionus

im in two minds. on the one hand the PDs acting up would lose them office , on the other hand theres only 8 months left! berties the only one who wants the record 3 full terms in office. mickey d couldnt give a fig. if macdowel leaves on tues not only does he avoid being slaughtered in the election next year he can maintain he's acting on principle i.e, we wont stay in power with corrupt politicians like bertie. not only looking well but probably garnering more seats than he would normally.

if i was bertie id be very afraid, mick has more to gain bailing than staying in power!

Akrasia

cast_iron wrote:

And that's exactly what makes him so good at his job.

is his job to govern the country or to get himself re-elected?

Akrasia

constitutionus wrote:

im in two minds. on the one hand the PDs acting up would lose them office , on the other hand theres only 8 months left! berties the only one who wants the record 3 full terms in office. mickey d couldnt give a fig. if macdowel leaves on tues not only does he avoid being slaughtered in the election next year he can maintain he's acting on principle i.e, we wont stay in power with corrupt politicians like bertie. not only looking well but probably garnering more seats than he would normally.

if i was bertie id be very afraid, mick has more to gain bailing than staying in power!

If Mcdowell goes, he'll go down as the serving the shortest term as tainiste ever. He'll have no chance of being a part of any FG Labour Coalition and if FF have to struggle into a next as a lame duck, they're going to lose an awful lot of support.

Heinrich

Akrasia wrote:

is his job to govern the country or to get himself re-elected?

Well at least he will get 12 friends voting for him from the Goose and another 25 from the Manchester dinner.

Guaranteed but only if they are in his constituency. Hey, hold on, if they are really "CLOSE" friends they will be locals.

Brasser la merde remonte les odeurs

gandalf

cast_iron wrote:

Clearly you know alot about politics.
Bertie has done a good job. Could have been better, could have been worse, but you don't stay in power as long as he has without being good at your job. (We can exclude George W. on that one:D )!

Ahern has done a good job, are you kidding me.

He has brought the office's he has held into disrepute just like his Mentor Haughey.

He has left lame duck Ministers in place when a real leader would have sent them packing. (Step up Mr. Cullen and Mr. Brennen).

The economy has survived despite this governments best efforts to sabotage it, you just have to look at any days newspaper to see the waste of tax payers resources, overspending on projects and on vapourware.

The only reason he has stayed in power is because FF are bereft of any other charismatic talent to led them.

cast_iron

gandalf wrote:

He has brought the office's he has held into disrepute just like his Mentor Haughey.

I love how people suddenly take the high moral ground on these things, and a counter arguement is then made appear lesser.
I don't see any evidence that has proved his office has been brought into disrepute.

gandalf wrote:

He has left lame duck Ministers in place when a real leader would have sent them packing. (Step up Mr. Cullen and Mr. Brennen).

I agree with Cullen being included here, but Brennan??

gandalf wrote:

The economy has survived despite this governments best efforts to sabotage it, you just have to look at any days newspaper to see the waste of tax payers resources, overspending on projects and on vapourware.

Ah yes, i remember the speeches at their conference think-ins..."Lets sabotage this economy lads, that's how we'll hold onto power..."
Of course you'll read that in the papers, with their spin on things. They, like Bertie, have a job to do and clearly do it well. With such an economy boom, inflation was always going to happen.

strassenwolf

There was a good row this morning between Brian Cowen and Richard Bruton on Morning Ireland this morning. http://dynamic.rte.ie/av/2177587.smil

Biffo getting quite hot under the collar, it seemed.

Motley Crue

why would anyone who signed charlie haugheys blank cheques be allowed into office, never mind as Taoiseach, and then it turns out he accepted money as a junior minister to attend a public event...and we still let him stay, and nobody questions whats wrong?

Whats wrong is he's still in office right now, he should be gone!

Akrasia

Motley Crue wrote:

why would anyone who signed charlie haugheys blank cheques be allowed into office, never mind as Taoiseach, and then it turns out he accepted money as a junior minister to attend a public event...and we still let him stay, and nobody questions whats wrong?

Whats wrong is he's still in office right now, he should be gone!

he accepted money as the minister for finance, not a junior minister

redspider

I didnt read the thread, but to answer the question:

Will Bertie resign over payments ???

No.
Well, he wont do so willingly or honourably and it'll be like trying to extract the wisdom teeth of a bull elephant to extract Bertie out of the Taoiseach's chair! His party have moved into full gung-ho support. The opposition started off quite timid in their approach, such as 'Please tell us Bertie, we know it was a for a personal reason, which looks acceptable'. But, they are getting into the swing of things a bit better now and remembering that their reaction to this will be judged in the next election, so its election mode kicking in.

The PD's with McDowell are in new territory. Before Harney resigned he might have been saying one thing to help him in a better position for his leadership wishes. Now he is having to keep saying, well, he should tell us but we wont be asking him to resign as this government will carry out its programme, etc.

Bertie is also looking over to England and seeing Teflon Tony and seeing that if he can bloody invade Iraq and get away with it, and Dubya, then surely a few k here or there is nutt'n.

People - vote wisely when the elections come up ..... or get involved and run as independents or support strong politicians.

Redspider

samb

If only Ms Harney had been a bit more hesitant in resigning. If she was still leader now she would surely resign and make things interesting. I bet she's kicking herself cus she would really have got recognition for integrity.

ifconfig

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0929/ahernb.html

"A leading Manchester businessman has given an account of the dinner held in the city at which the Taoiseach received a payment of £8,000.

Speaking to RTÉ News in Manchester, John Kennedy revealed the dinner was organised by the late Tim Kilroe, founder of Aer Arann.
The dinner, he said, took place at the Four Seasons Hotel in the city, which was then owned by Mr Kilroe.
He added that the money given to Mr Ahern was neither a political donation nor a loan.

Mr Kennedy said around 27 people were at the function and that a collection was made. He said Mr Ahern, who was then Minister for Finance, did not speak at the event.
Asked if Mr Ahern was there in his capacity as Minister for Finance, he said Mr Ahern was there as a private citizen.
Mr Kennedy, now retired, said the Mahon Tribunal has been in touch with him about what he knows about the payment."


So I am a bit confused. If it was neither a loan nor a political donation
is it correct to assume it was a gift ? So I'm guessing there are
tax implications. I suppose only the Mahon tribunal at this stage
knows how that payment was handled with respect to tax.
Is there info in the public domain so far to suggest that he didn't
pay tax on it... or are such payments subject to tax (I'm assuming
they are but I'm in no way an expert on taxation and especially
what was taxable in 1994).

gandalf

OK a poll was requested about whether Ahern should resign.

I have added this thread http://82.195.136.250/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054997030 which has a poll attached.

Vote away.

DMC

samb wrote:

If only Ms Harney had been a bit more hesitant in resigning. If she was still leader now she would surely resign and make things interesting. I bet she's kicking herself cus she would really have got recognition for integrity.

Does anyone else smell something when as soon McDowell becomes leader of the PD's, that its The Irish Times that publishes the leaks from the Tribunal, knowing what buttons it would press for the leader of the PD's?

Villain

OMG what the hell was MJ Nolan at????? Did anyone here what he said? He said his position could be untenable if his anwers don't stack up on Tuesday!!!

Het-Field

Always possible, but as long as it doesnt screw up the Progressive Democrats, its ok

lostexpectation

the village is going on about bertie going to manu matches with people involved in the phoenix park casino bid, like des richardson giving him a lift over on his private jet to manchester when is a lift just a lift.

http://www.villagemagazine.ie/article.asp?sid=1&sud=40&aid=3158

It doesn't rest on what we now know, but whats to come in the next year..

constitutionus

an FFer was on the last word laying into micheal macdowel over his statements that bertie has questions to answer, saying he's destroyed his political career and will be sorted out at the next election. then went on to rant on about how FF will stick him in the wilderness, so the infighting in the gov has begun. not to mention the carlow FF backbencher outright saying bertie should resign (apparently he did this with albert too so hes got a bit of a track record)

i heard the manchester business man on the radio myself and now have to ask who's lying? cause if you go to the RTE site and download the bertie confession 12mins in bertie clearly says he got paid at the function and the money went into his account and the tribunal KNOW this. so surely the tribunal could resolve this impass cause both parties cant be right. looks to me its more money bertie didnt pay to the taxman because his wage became a "gift". funny how when i get a gift i call it a present, not payment. though at least there should be a paper trail this time cause cheques were handed over.

you really do have to laugh at the levels FF is going to to defend the indefendable. biffo and co getting all apoplectic cause someone points out a painfully obvious example of tax evasion and compromisation. i cant wait till tuesday, this should be great fun. hope higgin's got some new material:D

LostinBlanch

DMC wrote:

Does anyone else smell something when as soon McDowell becomes leader of the PD's, that its The Irish Times that publishes the leaks from the Tribunal, knowing what buttons it would press for the leader of the PD's?

Next you'll be saying that the editor of the Irish Times was a PD. . . . . oh wait!

skearon

ifconfig wrote:

So I am a bit confused. If it was neither a loan nor a political donation is it correct to assume it was a gift ? So I'm guessing there are
tax implications. I suppose only the Mahon tribunal at this stage
knows how that payment was handled with respect to tax.
Is there info in the public domain so far to suggest that he didn't
pay tax on it... or are such payments subject to tax (I'm assuming
they are but I'm in no way an expert on taxation and especially
what was taxable in 1994).

In 1994, a gift by people who where no domiciled in the state was not subject to any tax.

skearon

constitutionus wrote:

i heard the manchester business man on the radio myself and now have to ask who's lying? cause if you go to the RTE site and download the bertie confession 12mins in bertie clearly says he got paid at the function and the money went into his account and the tribunal KNOW this. so surely the tribunal could resolve this impass cause both parties cant be right. looks to me its more money bertie didnt pay to the taxman because his wage became a "gift". funny how when i get a gift i call it a present, not payment. though at least there should be a paper trail this time cause cheques were handed over.

you really do have to laugh at the levels FF is going to to defend the indefendable. biffo and co getting all apoplectic cause someone points out a painfully obvious example of tax evasion and compromisation. i cant wait till tuesday, this should be great fun. hope higgin's got some new material:D

So what if the money went into his account, a gift by people not domiciled in the state in 1994 was not subject to tax, the tribunal is not investigating the Taoiseach over this as he has clearly no case to answer.

The Ministers are correctly stating he has done nothing wrong, I hope you do wait until Tuesday to hear the facts and not jump to unproven alligations for once, however by your posts to date I suspect it is clear that no matter what is said or proved you clearly won't believe facts. You obviously have no interest in another 10 years of economic progress, peace on the Island, low taxes etc that the current Government has given us all.

borg1967

redspider wrote:

People - vote wisely when the elections come up ..... or get involved and run as independents or support strong politicians.Redspider

Yes I will be, and not for party (FG) run by a guy who has achieved nothing during his 30 years in politics. I will be voting FF and will be proud to support a strong Taoiseach who has brought so much economic growth to this country.

It really amazes me how so many people on this thread have absolultely no appreciation of what the present Govt has done for this country, or who want to waste their vote on a no hoper independent (assuming people here actually do vote).

Rock Climber

borg1967 wrote:

It really amazes me how so many people on this thread have absolultely no appreciation of what the present Govt has done for this country, or who want to waste their vote on a no hoper independent (assuming people here actually do vote).

It shouldnt really amaze you.You are just exposed to people here who feel strongly enough to post on the topic.
It's great to read and mind opening some times to see such a variety of ignorance and intelligence depending on your take or knowledge of the subject.

constitutionus

skearon wrote:

So what if the money went into his account, a gift by people not domiciled in the state in 1994 was not subject to tax, the tribunal is not investigating the Taoiseach over this as he has clearly no case to answer.

.

yes, but bertie said he was paid, not a gift, he recieved payment. that is liable to tax. the taoiseach most definetly does have a case to answer as he seems to be making stuff up as he goes along and contradicting himself in the process

you may have your opinions of me but im constantly amazed how many people defending bertie seem to be doing so on the basis they made out like bandits in celtic tiger ireland. not everything revolve around the economy you know. if moneys all that matters you may as well feck the law out the window and just start stealing off people.

surely your not condoning criminality simply because your lifestyes better?

skearon

constitutionus wrote:

yes, but bertie said he was paid, not a gift, he recieved payment. that is liable to tax. the taoiseach most definetly does have a case to answer as he seems to be making stuff up as he goes along and contradicting himself in the process

you may have your opinions of me but im constantly amazed how many people defending bertie seem to be doing so on the basis they made out like bandits in celtic tiger ireland. not everything revolve around the economy you know. if moneys all that matters you may as well feck the law out the window and just start stealing off people.

surely your not condoning criminality simply because your lifestyes better?

Criminality? Why don't you wait and see, as far as I can see he has done nothing wrong and I will wait until Tuesday to see what he says.

The economy is important, the more tax a Govt receives the better it is for everyone, whether it is the amount of PAYE you pay, the amount of child benefit received, amount of pension received (both of which incidentally has increased massively since 1997).

On a general note everyone whether it is you, me, the President, the Taoiseach etc is entitled to an assumption of innocence until proved (in a court of law) otherwise.

Making it up as he goes along like a rabbit in headlights.Thats why I wouldnt focus on his language yet for a definitive description of what went on.

His infamous apparent ability to say alot yet say nothing has let him down this time.
I'll be surprised if he goes to be honest as from what I can see,those that already have a dim opinion of him or disagree with his politics are it would seem the most vocal against him.
Taking that into consideration,the floating opinion is probably wondering what the world would be like under Enda Kenny.
I've already said that I think it would probably not be much different.

constitutionus

skearon wrote:

Criminality? Why don't you wait and see, as far as I can see he has done nothing wrong and I will wait until Tuesday to see what he says.

The economy is important, the more tax a Govt receives the better it is for everyone, whether it is the amount of PAYE you pay, the amount of child benefit received, amount of pension received (both of which incidentally has increased massively since 1997).

On a general note everyone whether it is you, me, the President, the Taoiseach etc is entitled to an assumption of innocence until proved (in a court of law) otherwise.

what makes what hes to say on tuesday any different to what he's said already? he said he was paid. what more do you need? im not making this up, its his words! go to the RTE site download the dobson interview go 12mins in and hear it yourself. remember this was a prerecorded interview he prepared for in advance shot in his own constituancy office and he presented the information unsolicited himself. he went out of his way to say this.

i will be waiting to hear what he has to say on tuesday, with great interest, but the guy nailed his own coffin already. i'll say it again cause people dont seem to let this sink in, he brought it up. dobson was there to talk about the 12 people who gave him his "loan" . no one knew anything about mancheter then so the taoiseach decided deliberatly to reveal that information. and now hes disembling all over the place. the guys had over a week to spin this, he no rabit caught in a pair of headlights. the fact is he was caught and he's scrabling around grasping at straws to find a way out of the situation

and by the way this is about standards in public office, its got sod all to do with who'll run the country should he fall. weather the suceeding gov runs the country into the ground has no relevance to the issue at hand. theres compelling evidence he brought the office of the minister for finance into disrepute. focus on the issue, in any other country that called itself a democracy he'd resign

Pines

skearon wrote:

You obviously have no interest in another 10 years of economic progress, peace on the Island, low taxes etc that the current Government has given us all.

borg1967 wrote:

It really amazes me how so many people on this thread have absolultely no appreciation of what the present Govt has done for this country

Ah, this is nearly as good as Gerry Collins and his quivering "Albert, don't burst up the party" comedy routine. There truly is nothing as amusing as the wounded and self-righteous tones of a soldier of destiny. A bit like Biffo's interview tonight and his eyes downcast, voice low as he muttered that Bertie was going through a difficult personal time (the implication being that this excuses any act, that he was in some sort of a daze and simply pocketed large sums of money with glazed eyes and no real grasp of the ::ahem:: ethical difficulties).

The posters quoted above imply that political success provides immunity from ethics and propriety. (This must be why Ivor, who never managed even a small peace process, can get banished so trivially). Read the quotes again and you can almost hear the whisper: "Sure, Bertie got us peace, and isn't your house worth a grand little fortune? Now whisht and leave the poor fellow enjoy his backhanders. You should be ashamed for questioning a great statesman like him after everything he did for you."

Well, as Constitutionus rightly said, it's about standards in public office, not about the competence of Fine Gael, or the peace process, or how nice he is to animals.

A group of cronies gave him money. He didn't give it back (despite currently earning 250k plus per annum). It has been reported that some of the donors have been given prestigious appointments to State Bodies. On top of that he says he took money for a speaking engagement when holding one of the most senior cabinet positions.

Is any of this sinking in? It's about ethics and standards, not to mention hypocricy. You may intend to vote Fianna Fail for economic reasons, but that's not at issue here.

RainyDay

constitutionus wrote:

i will be waiting to hear what he has to say on tuesday, with great interest, but the guy nailed his own coffin already. i'll say it again cause people dont seem to let this sink in, he brought it up. dobson was there to talk about the 12 people who gave him his "loan" . no one knew anything about mancheter then so the taoiseach decided deliberatly to reveal that information. and now hes disembling all over the place.

The Irish Times reported on Friday that they knew about the Manchester payments, and that Bertie knew that they knew, so it was only a matter of time before it came out in public. Bertie tried to bury it under the stuff about the other payments, but failed.