Will Bertie resign over payments???

Lemming

baztard wrote:

I think they were "friends".

I've corrected your original quote baztard. To read from yesterdays' Times news paper on the matter ... I quote from the leading article, front page, paragraph 2:

Irish Times Newspaper wrote:

"He [Mr Ahern] offered repeatedly to repay the money. It's a debt of honour to him. He wants to repay them but the boys won't take it back at the moment", said one source

Excuse me whilst I p*ss myself with laughter at the naked contempt which that quote gives to joe-public.

Ah, d'ladz "wont take it back" ... riiiiiiiiiiiiiight ..... *cough* ahem. Yeah.

It happened 13 years ago, long before the politicans had to be careful about who gave them money.

I think you'll find that politicians have always had to be careful about who gave them money and why. It's just more likely to be reported and/or acted on before throwing said politicians to the public in the voting booth.

All that controversial land-rezoning courtesy of Liam Lawlor occurred years ago (to use another example). Should that be forgotten about? No? Why not? Answer that and you'll find a very similar answer to the same question regarding the current issue as well.

This dirty and desperate politics by whoever leaked the story. Watch now as the opposition become 'outraged' by it. A load of sh** if you ask me.

So you have absolutely no bother with elected representatives .. indeed the office of Taoiseach ... acting in a questionable and possibly corrupt manner?

constitutionus

its funny how the story is now shifting to aherns actions dealing with the story. was listening to newstalk earlier today and apparently bertie was in the courts threatening the papers and media with law suits if they coverd the story, apparently he got a heads up just before it broke . many of the comentators were saying if the privacy bill was in full effect we wouldve heard nowt about any of this. of course this is comming from journalists who arent exactly in favor of the bill. still doesnt say alot about our democracy when the taoiseach's acting like that, in fact it sounds more like a dictatorship brow beating the media to do what it wants, definetly a disturbing element to this

funny also how the attention has been focused on his marital seperation cost when the original story was about bertie getting a payment along with albert from a developer looking to build in clondalkin. whys everyone forgot about that one? apparently now the payments are "group loans" from several individuals who ,well, dont want the money back:D can someone please point me in the direction of these creditors seeing as the banks have been quite rude bastards to me! you know,what with actually wanting the money back along with some extortionate interest :eek: the real issue here though once again is the amount. the guys on a quater of a million a year now and he still hasnt paid them back? i dont want to over estimate the amount but when the haughy story broke everyone thought it was just a million, then turned out to be 9. so when bertie says the figures are "off the wall" is it because its too big, or massively too small. the obvious intention was its too big, but this is bertie were talking about so you have to scrutenise everthing he says from all possible angles

fact is we only have berties word that this has anything to do with his seperation at all. it could be just spin to deflect away from a corrupt payment.if im missing some facts please tell me but the only official word from the tribunals was about not reporting on this issue or any other confidential matter before them. playing the sympathy card isnt actually a new tactics in politics and you can bet FF are in full media spin mode now. some have said that he's been cleared from investigation by the tribunal but lets be honest how much faith can we actually have in them? in ten years theyve only convicted one corrupt politician. and he's been out of power for over 15yrs! you seriously expect em to jail bertie, a serving taoiseach? thats why this thing was leaked. do i think its all alturism on the part of the informant? no. but most of the most damaging revelations in this country have been on the back of leaks, not government bodies doing their jobs to root out corruption , malpractice or outright criminality. you only have to see how many bankers went to jail over the non resident account scandal to see that. hell even when they had haughey by the balls harney steps up and ensures the guy stays free. we wont get justice from the tribunals, just alot of waffle and protected criminals whom you cant convict cause the evidence revealed in a tribunal is inadmisable in a court of law. that why we need people like the informant, is it nice? no. but this is ireland and its the only way to get the truth out. it shames me to say that about my country but its an undeniable fact that people that come forward to expose corruption end up on the dole or working on the aran islands for their trouble. we simply dont have a culture of accountability in high places.

oh, one last thing. MACDOWEL?....were art thou! maybe hes grovelling to frank connolly who seems to have been right all along. wonder if he'll get his money back from the defamation case

baztard

Lemming wrote:

All that controversial land-rezoning courtesy of Liam Lawlor occurred years ago (to use another example). Should that be forgotten about? No? Why not? Answer that and you'll find a very similar answer to the same question regarding the current issue as well.

So you have absolutely no bother with elected representatives .. indeed the office of Taoiseach ... acting in a questionable and possibly corrupt manner?

Theres a huge difference between Liam Lawlor, who blatantly took money in return for political favours, and Bertie who took money not in return for political favours.

I dont think Bertie is or was corrupt. This was just an ethical hic-cup.

Dalfiatach

How many times are we going to get the same old defence?

A group of "good friends" who just happen to be rich, and who by amazing coincidence also happen to be largely made up of property developers, come together and give a politician loads of money (that they don't want back!), purely out of the goodness of their hearts, to pay for....Haughey's AIB debts, Lenihan's operation, Bertie's divorce...

Come off it.

In 1993 Bertie was Minister for Finance. He was earning over £50K a year, had one of the safest seats in the country, and was already seen as Haughey's heir apparent and a future Taoiseach. And everyone knew his marriage had hit the rocks, it wasn't exactly a dirty little secret to be hidden from Holy Catholic Ireland, not in 1993. And yer telling me he couldn't get 10 grand from the bank to cover his legal bill for the separation?

The whole "divorce legal bills" thing is a smokescreen, a diversion, designed to make "poor auld Bertie" sympathetic to the masses in this one. Those nasty Opposition people, hounding de Bert over de lads helping him out in a difficult time in his life.

Rubbish. Anyone falls for this is a fool.

Macker

baztard wrote:

Theres a huge difference between Liam Lawlor, who blatantly took money in return for political favours, and Bertie who took money not in return for political favours.

I dont think Bertie is or was corrupt. This was just an ethical hic-cup.

An ethical hic-cup eh!
Are you a PR person ?If not you should be for that comment

ircoha

Sleepy wrote:

You'll never convince me that Bertie's clean but I'd be surprised if he didn't get away with it. His friends are far too powerful for anything bad to happen to him.

Well put Sleepy.

CCI [Corrupt Corporate Ireland] run this country which is why big builders and other corporates pose a very real threat to this democracy.

One only had to look at the gathering in the K Club, under UK rule, to see that the Soldiers of Destiny and their supporters dont give a rats arse about the common people. The double standards were breathtaking: all the "bussed" people had to surrender thier mobile fones and produce ID, but not the people in the corporate boxes.

What was a proper scandal is that we taxpayers shelled out €16m to Ryder Cup LLP, and all we got was golf on the radio. We are the laughing stock of Europe.

I was delighted to see that while CCI can buy the government and buy the planners etc and stop the common people from seeing it live on RTE, they could not buy the weather. I, for one, was delighted to see them pissed on.

Villain

Seamus Brennan on "The week in Politics" kept saying over and over that Bertie was listening to was being said. He seemed to hinting that Bertie will reveal more in time.

The longer this goes on the worse it looks and more and more damage is been done to the FF vote. Is someone looking for an early election? will Cowen be forced into a give away budget to repair the damage?

ircoha

ircoha wrote:

Well put Sleepy.

CCI [Corrupt Corporate Ireland]One only had to look at the gathering in the K Club, under UK rule, to see that the Soldiers of Destiny and their supporters dont give a rats arse about the common people. The double standards were breathtaking: all the "bussed" people had to surrender thier mobile fones and produce ID, but not the people in the corporate boxes.

What was a proper scandal is that we taxpayers shelled out €16m to Ryder Cup LLP, and all we got was golf on the radio. We are the laughing stock of Europe.

There are very valid criticisms to be made about at least the manner in which Bertie is handling this issue; and possibly there are serious questions about the fundamental wrong alleged but I guess that depends on what comes to light and what actually happened.

Either way, obscuring the whole thing with comments about the Ryder Cup, the hysterical nonsense about UK rule and soundbites about being a laughing stock of Europe only obscure the issue and add nothing to the debate. The issue here is Bertie and donations, linking it to the jurisdiction of the security contracts for the K Club just dilutes it.

constitutionus

was listening to a vox pop on the radio and someone came up with a very interesting point. what if this is a FF leak? on the surface it look ridiculous but the comentator said if this was under investigation by the tribunals and the first we heard of it was in the tribunals what the enduring image would be is the taoiseach in the dock. now we all know about its, its not news and bertie even comes off sympathetic to some people. now when he talks about it in the tribunal hes looks likes he's been hounded into it instead of a scandal breaking in full view of the public.

could this be true? i dont know but its a nice bit of spin if it is!

lostexpectation

constitutionus wrote:

was listening to a vox pop on the radio and someone came up with a very interesting point. what if this is a FF leak? on the surface it look ridiculous but the comentator said if this was under investigation by the tribunals and the first we heard of it was in the tribunals what the enduring image would be is the taoiseach in the dock. now we all know about its, its not news and bertie even comes off sympathetic to some people. now when he talks about it in the tribunal hes looks likes he's been hounded into it instead of a scandal breaking in full view of the public.

could this be true? i dont know but its a nice bit of spin if it is!

it was strange he talked about the "impeccable sourcing" of mark hennesy's story, Bertie knew about this because he was already dealing with the tribunal in the courts the week before wanting to have the financial details of his seperation. So he could have leaked it muddy the water against the tribunal.

gandalf

Well still no word from the Teflon one. I wish I had friends who would pay off my debts, but then again if they did I would have to pay the revenue for the privilage. Of course if they are loans then thats different, thats of course if I pay them back at if no interest is accrued is that not also something that the revenue can pursue him over.

This is of course putting aside the fact he got money from rich property developers especially witH FF's long corrupt history of getting hand outs from these types. At best Bertie has been a complete and utter idiot at worst he is just as bad as the rest of the bunch and either of those is not worthy to lead this country.

Darragh29

Just a thought crossed my mind, we didn't see Mama Harney's resignation as leader of the PD's and her position as Tanaiste coming up on the radar??? Bertie seems to have this rather hapless look on his face over the last day or two almost like he knows that this is the sword he is going to fall on. Imagine the political landscape that would exist if Bertie did a Mary Harney and handed over the reigns to Biffo or someone else like Dermot Ahern!?!?! This would make for an interesting election!

gandalf

You are joking he will do the usual FF tactic of brass necking it out.

Villain

Not a snowballs chance in Hell, it will be interesting to hear his statment though and see who gave him the money and if they money was purely for Legal bills or whether it included money which was part of his legal seperation.

It will also be interesting to see opinion polls in the coming weeks to see what affect this will have. He has dragged it out far too long and no matter what his statement is now damage has been done.

If it's £10,000 or less then I'd say its going to be ok as it would be less than the old gift tax threshold.
I dont know when they divorced exactly but was it before the ethics law was passed too? Ie before such a donation would have to be declared as a financial interest?

If it's both then the personal nature of this takes precedence over the political football it has become.I notice that the politicians are being very very carefull with this by still adding comments like,its a very personal thing.They are rightly criticising the going to ground on it, but then we'll have to see really what he says on that later today.

In my opinion,theres many things that Ahern can be criticised for without this,though I would like to know now that a fuss is being made who donated the money and if theres any trail of favouritism following it.

If there isnt,then paradoxically for the Bertie haters,he could actually come out of this with the sympathy factor.
Opposition politicians know this well, thats why they are proceeding but very carefully.
They have their get out clause.

is_that_so

As someone pointed out this story has really only got legs in the "mejia" and as expected - the Opposition. My own reading is that it is very close to encroaching on someone's private life. His reaction to the whole thing is similar to how he reacts to any other questions on his private life. He doesn't talk about it. More likely he will get some sympathy. TBH the Opposition should worry about other things.

constitutionus

gandalf wrote:

Well still no word from the Teflon one. I wish I had friends who would pay off my debts, but then again if they did I would have to pay the revenue for the privilage. Of course if they are loans then thats different, thats of course if I pay them back at if no interest is accrued is that not also something that the revenue can pursue him over.

.

have to ask, whens a loan a loan. and whens it a mortagage this has been owed for 13yrs! 7yrs less than the average mortgage term back in 93.

also it turns out its nearly a dozen business men who lent him the money, i presume at least one of them has a reciept;), no?, oh well.

just got a heads up on this issue anyway. according to radio reports bertie is going on 6.01 news on RTE tonight to explain the whole issue. cours this is bertie so god knows what that means but should be compulsive viewing anyway. wonder if sharon will goes easy on him:)

Villain

How do you know he didn't pay the dozen or so guys back? Not being smart just I didn't think we (the Public) knew whether or not he paid them back.

constitutionus

gandalf wrote:

You are joking he will do the usual FF tactic of brass necking it out.

agreed, this is ireland. our politicians dont resign when theyre caught up to no good, they resign after being leaned on by party superiors. and seeing as berties taoiseach theres no one to do the leaning. just look how quiet macdowels being over this whole affair. he went on ad nauseum about how he wouldnt let sinn fein into power because of criminality yet here we have a very dodgy situation with bertie (and remember boys and girls we only have berties word it has anything at all to do with his seperation) and the rothwielers slumbering. when you remember what happened to ivor calleley over getting his house painted you begin to put the hypocracy on display here in perspective

skearon

constitutionus wrote:

here we have a very dodgy situation with bertie

Why don't you wait until he speaks about it tonight before deciding if it is 'dodgy' or not.

What is dodgy is the leak from the tribunal, whoever leaked it could now allow individuals who are actually corrupt go free, e.g. someone currently under investigation might go to the high court and say he/she will no longer co-operate with the tribunal and as they now have a fear that their constitutional right to privacy could be breached; I hope the court would not uphold such an arguement, but it is possible.

Also with FG/Lab so desperate for power and with the timing of the leak, the media should concentrate their resources on finding the source of the leak and produce a real story.

Villain

I'd inlcude the PD's in that search skearon.

Darragh29

Just read on www.rte.ie that he'll be on six-one news to give "a full and frank explanation as to how that money came to be just resting in my account!"

I can see Bertie possibly having to resign over this, for one key reason... He has a load of seriously dissatisfied backbenchers, Noel O' Flynn, et al, have become increasingly frustrated at how Bertie deals with matters like this. It was the same when the statutory rape law issue arose over the summer, Bertie acted like some kind of 5th class pupil who found himself in the control room of a nuclear station with load of sirens going off and red lights flashing! I reckon the backbenchers could just say that enough is enough and pull the curtains down on his leadership, especially with an election around the corner, it would allow them present to the electorate with a clean leadership sheet.

Depending on his performance this evening, if it isn't seriously convincing, I'd say we could see a no confidence motion on the horizon from the opposition by next week and if this happens, I'd say the long knives of the back benchers will be shimmering in the long grass for poor Bertie! It would only take a handful of them to vote with the opposition to get rid of him, and some of the opposition are sick to death of his dithering and lack of decisive action on important matters.

The_Minister

I don't think that he will. The matter (as it appears) seems trivial enough - friends giving him money to help him get by during his seperation. This seems to have happened before all the other stuff (corruption) and so he probably didn't think much of it. If this is the way in which it happened then this is a small thing.

Villain

Still no word on where the leak came from???

Lemming

irish1 wrote:

How do you know he didn't pay the dozen or so guys back? Not being smart just I didn't think we (the Public) knew whether or not he paid them back.

if it had been paid back, Bertie would personally be screaming this from the roof tops as smug matter-of-factly. It hasn't, and his attempts to silence various entities regarding it would suggest he has something that he wants very much kept hidden (and isn't doing a very good job of it ... ). I guess we'll have a better understanding of it all after Bertie's promised "full & frank" public discussion. Or not ....

Darragh29

The_Minister wrote:

I don't think that he will. The matter (as it appears) seems trivial enough - friends giving him money to help him get by during his seperation. This seems to have happened before all the other stuff (corruption) and so he probably didn't think much of it. If this is the way in which it happened then this is a small thing.

I dunno, it's not exactly as if the guy was on the scratcher now, is it!?!?! According to the FF website, he was Minister for Finance from 1991-1994, if he couldn't afford to pay for his separation without being bunged by businessmen, then how on earth can the other people who are on the average industrial wage pay for their separation!?!?! I was disgusted at John O' Donohue on RTE last night, sh*teing on about "favours and corruption". I'm more interested in the fact that he may not have paid tax on this "donation", and at the same time, he is the very fu*ker, who was minister for Finance at the time, who actually wrote the laws relating to the taxation of the amount that he received!?!?!?! GUBU!!!

Darragh29

irish1 wrote:

Still no word on where the leak came from???

The rumour is there are two likely sources of the leak, either the National Aquatic Centre, but reports are coming in that it is almost certainly coming from the Port Tunnel, apparently there are serious leaks coming from there!

I voted FF last time round. I will almost certainly vote for them again next time around - on the basis of the economy, the North and certain other issues.

I'm beginning to get more and more annoyed by all of this though. The indications are that Ahern got money running into the thousands, if not tens of thousands. Who does he think he is, how far is he removed from reality that he can just say 'personal matter' and we must all accept that and humbly retreat, apologising for being so intrusive? It's a lot of money now, a fortune then. Just because monies may have been used to resolve a personal issue doesn't mean he need not bother disclosing how much and who gave it. Sure every politican could start sending out the brown envelopes again and explain it all away saying it's to resolve delicate little personal issues and we shouldn't be troubling ourselves wondering about it.

At least he should give us the information and then let us judge his position. If he goes, he goes, at least Mary Hanafin or Dermot Ahern wouldn't be out insulting my intelligence with this bluff about concern over the source of the leaks and family law matters and other smokescreens.

Dave!

Interview on now (edit: it'll be played in full in 15 mins)

The people who gave him the money have been named

Oh the waterworks came out! Sorta

The amount was the equivalent of ~€50,000, and he hasn't paid any of it back.

His excuse was that the money (from around 12 "friends") was a loan to pay his marraige settlement, and he offered a number of times to pay it back, but they repeatedly declined.

Darragh29

HAHAHA! Just watching the story unfolding on Six-One news!!! Bertie is a gonner!!! He has made himself look like Fr. Ted imo!