Will Bertie resign over payments???

Villain

Oh he is a hard working Politician alright, just a hypocrite as well.

Or as Haughey said cunning and devious!

To sum up what I think:

Bertie received £39,000 punts which given inflation is around €90,000 today, now Bertie says its a Loan, of course its easy for him to say that now 13 years after the fact. The Tax expert on Prime Time last night said that after 7 years it could be argued that it was now a gift, it is also arguable that once the person who gave the money says they don't want it back it becomes a gift which seem to be the case here if you believe what Bertie said.

Now if you look at what Bertie has said in the past it shows him to be at the very least a hypocrite, i.e. he said in 1997 that politicians and especially Ministers should not receive money which is used for his/her personal life. He also stated around the time of Michael Lowry's problems that a loan could only be called such if there was documentation to support it.

Another comment he made was that he may have appointed some of the people who gave him money to state boards but he did so not beacuse they gave him money but because they were "Friends".

Many many people had legal bill's in 1993 not many of them were earning the big salary that Bertie was but yet they had to get by, our leader is a Hyprocrite.

sudzs

johnnyrotten wrote:

Seems to me that the Anti-Bertie brigade are getting a lot of airtime.

or perhaps it's just a reflection of how many people are actually anti-Bertie???

johnnyrotten

irish1 wrote:

Oh he is a hard working Politician alright, just a hypocrite as well.

Or as Haughey said cunning and devious!

To sum up what I think:

How is he a hypocrite? - His mates helped him out!

Villain

Oh right so its ok for him to be hyprocrite because others are, typical FF speak.

johnnyrotten

How is that typical FF speak. I am not attached to any political party. I simply think that Mr. Ahern has been One of the best leader of this country. Who is the alternative?

Villain

Have you been to any Hospital A&E clinic in the last few years? Have you travelled on our road network or our public Transport system? Have you seen the figures for road deaths or crime rates? Have you tried to buy a house on a normal wage?

Bertie has done some good thats for sure, but he is a hypocrite who has failed in many many areas.

From RTE.ie/news

Speaking on RTÉ Radio's News At One, Dublin publican Charlie Chawke, who is one of 12 men who gave money to Bertie Ahern, said the Taoiseach only accepted the money as a loan.

He said Mr Ahern had made 'very serious' efforts to repay the money, but that he had refused to accept it at least four times.

gandalf

Why has an alternative have anything to do with it.

If receiving a gift of 1.5K is enough to get rid of Ivor Calally then one for IEP£38K (€50K) is surely more than enough reason for Ahern to walk the plank. Unless of course you advocate double standards!

Darragh29

irish1 wrote:

Have you been to any Hospital A&E clinic in the last few years? Have you travelled on our road network or our public Transport system? Have you seen the figures for road deaths or crime rates? Have you tried to buy a house on a normal wage?

Bertie has done some good thats for sure, but he is a hypocrite who has failed in many many areas.

Excellent point. He's done good alright if your a builder/developer, an investor with loads of cash, or a businessman who can afford a helicopter to fly over the permanant carpark at is the M50. If you are an ordinary Dubliner, you can't afford a place to live in the county that you work in. This guy and his muppets in government with him have ruined this country, when the dust settles on all this "Celtic Tiger II" sh*te and the huge tax take from stamp duty comes to a halt when the slowdown in house sales arrives, we'll realise that we've been financially raped by this government.

gandalf

What exactly does "'very serious' efforts to repay the money" mean. I mean is there any proof of this bar the lads telling us so. Were any cheques written, letters begging the Bass Brigade to take the money back. Somehow I seriously doubt it. Mr Chawke made it very clear from the interview broadcast on Newstalk this morning that he considered this a gift (sorry a loan that he didn't want repayment on).

Without any form of proof then this is nothing but more bull from the wounded FF spin machine.

Diogenes

johnnyrotten wrote:

Are there any Bertie supporters here who can see the man for who he is? - An Honest hard working politician!

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

Gandalf wrote:

What exactly does "'very serious' efforts to repay the money" mean.

Oh y'know you're down on your luck and a friend lends you fifty euro, a few weeks later you try to give it back, he won't hear of it, you try and press it into their hand, they pull their hand away, and tell you "gwan out of that now". You sneak it into their jacket pocket, but the next morning you find he'd put it back in your jeans without you noticing.

Just like that. But y'know, with alot more notes.

Hobbes

Saw it in the paper in the shop (so might misquote) "Bertie winner in 38,000 prize for TV quiz".

Villain

I agree Gandalf its very easy for Charlie Chalk and the others to say he offered to repay it but is there any proof? Surely Bertie should have to produce such proof given his statement about Lowry's "Loans" at the time he was in trouble.

gandalf

Diogenes wrote:

Oh y'know you're down on your luck and a friend lends you fifty euro, a few weeks later you try to give it back, he won't hear of it, you try and press it into their hand, they pull their hand away, and tell you "gwan out of that now". You sneak it into their jacket pocket, but the next morning you find he'd put it back in your jeans without you noticing.

Just like that. But y'know, with alot more notes.

Mental note: Must try and mix up my Jacket with Charlie Chawkes next time I am in the Goat (Well you never know!!)

Darragh29

gandalf wrote:

What exactly does "'very serious' efforts to repay the money" mean. I mean is there any proof of this bar the lads telling us so. Were any cheques written, letters begging the Bass Brigade to take the money back. Somehow I seriously doubt it. Mr Chawke made it very clear from the interview broadcast on Newstalk this morning that he considered this a gift (sorry a loan that he didn't want repayment on).

Without any form of proof then this is nothing but more bull from the wounded FF spin machine.

How detached from reality can the guy be to think that we are going to run with any of this??? He seems determined to continue appealing to the dumbest 10% of the population without thinking what the other 90% of the country will think of him for continuing this absolute nonsense.

Villain

First up is Kenny, whos says the the house meet in extraordinary circumstances, he has gone on to say that he believes the office of Taoiseach has been damaged. He said 100,000 have gone through the same problems as Bertie (Marriage Breakup)

2 Questions:
Is your acceptance of 50,000 and your statements in this house about not being beholden to others, is it ok that different standards apply to Bertie.

Will you admit that accepting the money was wrong?

Darragh29

irish1 wrote:

First up is Kenny, whos says the the house meet in extraordinary circumstances, he has gone on to say that he believes the office of Taoiseach has been damaged. He said 100,000 have gone through the same problems as Bertie (Marriage Breakup)

2 Questions:
Is your acceptance of 50,000 and your statements in this house about not being beholden to others, is it ok that different standards apply to Bertie.

Will you admit that accepting the money was wrong?

Is this on the tele now???

Villain

Bertie says he will answer all questions including personal issues, he wants people to know that he has never dishounoured any office in his responability, he had made mistakes but not abused or misused people trust in him.

He has gone on to say he setup the tribunals and regrets that people have used the them to make false statements. He is now woffling off previous accusations the Ceann Comhaile is being very soft on him, he hasn't answered the question yet.

Villain

He didn't break any law any tax law, they were Loans, if he was in a simalar position now he wouldn't take the money, he only accepted after some time as loans.

Bunnyhopper

There's quite a funny riff on this at

http://skangerland.blogspot.com

Villain

Enda says he hasn't answered his question about how he can apply different standards to others than to himself.

"Are you not man enough to say yes I am Wrong"

"Are you prepared to admit that acceptance of 50,000 was wrong"

He is asking about the 8,000 he got for speaking in Manchester now.

Villain

Bertie:

I didn't receieve any cash donation I received moneys as loans with interest.

Still not answered Enda's questions....

The laws provide for friends or family to allow them to give you benefits, there is nothing wrong with that, it wasn't wrong!

In relation to Manchester, he has attended many functions while in and out of governement, he received money from a group in Manchester which he delt with properly in relation to taxes. It was in 1994 or 1995 he was Minister at the time. That was teh only other donation that he wasn't able to account for.

Darragh29

irish1 wrote:

He didn't break any law any tax law, they were Loans, if he was in a simalar position now he wouldn't take the money, he only accepted after some time as loans.

You are living in some sort of twilight zone if you accept this.

Nalz

his comments smelt so bad i had to put on a gas mask when hearing them....jaysus this country and its politicans

Villain

Pat Rabbite:

It was difficult to watch the interview, no one wants to intrude in family affairs of anyone in the house, no one on these benches has mentioned those affairs. He is not interested in his family, no one in Labour made the leak.

Bertie is not a common man he has been driven around since the 80's so he shouldn't compare himself to the man on Hill 16.

The Irish times figures weren't off the wall. When it was suggested in the Lowry affair that the money was a loan you asked for written evidence, why apply that standard to Lowry and not to yourself? Is there any written evidence? "was it written on the back of a beer mat"?

Darragh29

Trilla wrote:

his comments smelt so bad i had to put on a gas mask when hearing them....jaysus this country and its politicans

Haha!

Villain

Please note I am only reporting what is been said.

Bertie:" I accepted the money on the basis that they were loans, I would have paid them back but they wouldn't accept the money back.

I don't want to draw to any comparisons with others!!"

The standards today would not be breached by what he did! He has checked with senior council.

He doesn't want to get into a row with the Irish Times, he would lose the row, the Irish times stated that 4 people in 1993 gave him between 50,000 and 100,00 and the figure was 22,000.

He accepts that Labour haven't had anything to do with the leaks or have been unfair about his personal life.

skearon

johnnyrotten wrote:

How is that typical FF speak. I am not attached to any political party. I simply think that Mr. Ahern has been One of the best leader of this country. Who is the alternative?

Very good point - Enda Kenny, lovely man, in politics for 30 years and no one seems to be able to point to anything useful or constructive he did during that time!

Or Bertie Ahern, who has overseen huge economic growth, massive increase in employment, massive increase in wages and massive decrease in corporation and personal taxes.

He was Minister of Finance at the time, if he was corrupt I'm sure he was in the position to get money for himself, he didn't, he didn't ask for the loans, a group of his closest friends came together to help him out - so what?

The real story is who leaked the information in the first place, I'm sure they got well paid for it by the papers or whoever got them to do it.

Villain

Pat Rabbite:

Says after 13 years its no longer a loan, he asked how much compound interest does he owe now.

"Are you telling the house that you had no bank account during the time you were Minister for Finance"

Villain

Bertie:

3% interest Rate, total figure on interest would be over €20,000. He did pay Capital Gains Tax and Gift tax as per his advice.

Between his marriage breakup between 87 and 93 he didn't have a personal bank account it was a joint account.