Middle Class Revolt

magpie

No, not the album by The Fall.

I'm just wandering when this is going to happen - at present the Middle Class are getting squeezed as they earn too much to qualify for benefits but don't have access to the fortunes of those who had money in the first place to invest in property and thus get even richer.

Look at the facts

House Prices at record highs
EDIT / Child care extortionate
High Taxes

What compounds the issue is that (judging by any number of threads on this board) not only do the Middle Class have to contend with all of the above, but the only housing they can afford is in 'Working' Class areas - so they are constantly hounded and harrassed by obnoxious kids, blaring techno, drunken brawls etc etc etc when they have to get up to go to work to pay their enormous mortgages, while the 'Working' Class get up at 12.00, wander round in their pyjamas and then watch Sky Sports on a [EDIT/ hyperbole removed]36 inch flatscreen while drinking cans and smoking spliff all day - supported by the Middle Class tax money.

So, how much longer will the MC take it? What can be done?

sceptre

I've never seen a 300 inch flatscreen.

The middle class don't revolt, they barely even vote. My analysis is just as good as the opening post.

magpie

You've never encountered hyperbole either, apparently.

Hobbes

magpie wrote:

You've never encountered hyperbole either, apparently.

So what was your point then?

Darragh29

Good thought provoking OP. I can't agree that "taxes" are high, but think it might feel like they are because the cost of living is so high, mainly due to the cost of property, etc.

Just want to throw this out there and see what kind of reception it will get...

Imagine I set up a new political party, say I call it "The Irish People's Party". And say I set up a website for my new party, not unlike www.boards.ie, and I invite everyone in Ireland who is registered to vote, to set up an account on my new partie's website. I give them a username and password and I put everything in place to embed security into the system so one person has one account and all of that. I know this would be very difficult but lets just imagine for a moment that it can be done.

Now say as part of my manifesto at election time, I promise that if elected to government, on the first day in government, I will ask the people of Ireland on my website what they want me to do for them while they are in government. Say I get back threads like, "Introduce a mandatory 25 year jail sentence for child rapists", "Buy out the Westlink Toll Bridge and lift the tolls", "Scrap VRT on cars, its an unfair tax", "Scrap stamp duty", "Introduce a tax on property for investors"...

Imagine I was to invite people to vote electronically on my website, how the members of my party should deal with these issues, so if a poll is set up for "Stamp Duty" and the majority say I should abolish stamp duty, we abolishy stamp duty, so on and so forth!

This would be the equivalent of a middle class revolt I think. Imagine the horror all the political parties would suffer if something like this happened. People would no longer be disconnected from politics, they would be participating in a new form of democracy, one that immediately and fully reacts to their collective desires. You would eliminate big businesses and corporations dictating policy to governments. You could give people tax incentives for contributing to the website and taking part in discussion about how the country should be run, people would feel empowered... Whatya think!?!?!

Think of my new website as like boards.ie, party representatives would be like mods once elected by the electorate, and each forum would exist for a government department and the state agencies... I could call my website, www.e-democracy.ie !!!

magpie

Do it!

The_Minister

That would be awful. Every tax scrapped except those on businesses. Businesses go out of business due to high taxes, workers try to go on Dole, but there is no money as there is so little tax revenue.

Mobs don't think big.

Darragh29

The_Minister wrote:

That would be awful. Every tax scrapped except those on businesses. Businesses go out of business due to high taxes, workers try to go on Dole, but there is no money as there is so little tax revenue.

Mobs don't think big.

Well say you decided to design the system in such as way that the more obvious faults like you mentioned above are designed out of the system and are eliminated. For example, taxation policies are set each year like the budget and voted on. The problems that people are most concerned about are likely topics like crime, health and childcare.

Hobbes

It wouldn't work, although the Atari Jaguar in every household law would be fun.

Your voting people in to run the country, who have the qualifications in which to do so. Your not voting in someone who can look after a website.

The last thing we would want is the majority controlling government spending.

bonkey

magpie wrote:

I'm just wandering when this is going to happen

Its not.

- at present the Middle Class are getting squeezed

You seem to be suggesting this is some sort of an unusual condition. The Middle Class have always been squeezed. Any notion otherwise is a convenient Hollywoodism.

If it were otherwise, we'd call them The Rich or The Poor.

Look at the facts

House Prices at record highs
Child benefit extortionate
High Taxes

I don't understand the middle point. Child benefit is something you receive. How can that be extortionate?

As for High Taxes...maybe you'd prefer a return to the three-tier, 78% top-bracket system of years gone by?

Or the time when the best outlok for thousands of graduates was to leave the country to find a job?

mike65

Child benefit has jumped in the last 10 years, hell you now get a grand just for owning a child less than 6 years of age.

Mike.

Supercell

While the OP is a little over the top , imho he is raising some valid social issues.

I think as long as house prices appreciate then this (imho) upper middle class will pay through the nose for their houses in choice locations like Lucan, Ballymun, Finglas etc (or the equivalent in other major Irish cities).

However, what if/when prices fall, and all of a sudden for the same price they paid for a two bed flat in a traffic jam in Lucan, becomes the same price as a small semi in Stillorgan, or somewhere else that's clearly a nicer place to live and better serviced?

The blame game will begin and I can see them blaming the government for all their woes, heck maybe they might even start voting!!

I reckon the next government will be inheriting a poison chalice which that party may find hard to recover from for a long long time.

sceptre

magpie wrote:

You've never encountered hyperbole either, apparently.

Obviously I have (I mod the Politics forum after all) but tend to regard it as a valid debating or discussion tactic only when funny, otherwise it's tantamount to straw-manning an argument before it's even begun. Which is a pity as there are some reasonable points before the ridiculous exaggerations. Having said that the child benefit point sticks out like a sore thumb as it travels towards the middle class and it's one of the benefits they receive despite earning "too much to qualify for benefits" as opposed to the late 70s when it was a tax credit.

billy the squid

magpie wrote:

No, not the album by The Fall.

I'm just wandering when this is going to happen - at present the Middle Class are getting squeezed as they earn too much to qualify for benefits but don't have access to the fortunes of those who had money in the first place to invest in property and thus get even richer.

Look at the facts

House Prices at record highs
Child benefit extortionate
High Taxes

What compounds the issue is that (judging by any number of threads on this board) not only do the Middle Class have to contend with all of the above, but the only housing they can afford is in 'Working' Class areas - so they are constantly hounded and harrassed by obnoxious kids, blaring techno, drunken brawls etc etc etc when they have to get up to go to work to pay their enormous mortgages, while the 'Working' Class get up at 12.00, wander round in their pyjamas and then watch Sky Sports on a 300 inch flatscreen while drinking cans and smoking spliff all day - supported by the Middle Class tax money.

So, how much longer will the MC take it? What can be done?

Or it could be that those who consider themselves middle class, but can only buy houses in working class areas are suffering from the "Hyacinth Bucket" syndrome. Claiming to be a member of a higher class than they actually are.

By the way, everyone who has a child or children, including what you call "middle class" are entitled to child benefit.

And to assume that the less well off in this country do nothing all day but drink beer and get into fights is a somewhat insulting generalisation.

magpie

See edit to OP re: the whole Child Care / Benefit issue.

Brain bypass caused me to type benefit, when I actually meant care. The point being that child care costs in and around €800 per pre-school child per month and there is no tax break or other meaningful allowance to cover this for those persons who have to work to support a mortgage.

Or it could be that those who consider themselves middle class, but can only buy houses in working class areas are suffering from the "Hyacinth Bucket" syndrome

As I'm sure you appreciate, the concept of the Middle Class is about aspiration, not monetary wealth. Traditionally the working class have had far more disposable income to spend on flash clothes, big tvs etc, whereas the Middle Classes save money for their childrens' education, wear knackered old cords, drive around in old rustbuckets and read 'broadsheet' newspapers. Or maybe that 'Good Life' style of Middle Classness has been eliminated by the increasing polarisation of Irish Society into those that can afford a Range Rover and those that can't.

to assume that the less well off in this country do nothing all day but drink beer and get into fights is a somewhat insulting generalisation

Again, you seem to be missing the point entirely. The less well off are the Middle Class, as they have to support mortgages and pay for child care.

The working class on the other hand get free housing, a range of benefits, leave their children with the grandparent who inhabits the same house (and/or lets them roam the streets causing trouble until all hours) and use all their disposable income indulging themselves. Bizarrely the state continues to support this dependance - for instance during the last bout of flooding it gave taxpayers' money to the working class who had no house insurance and whose homes were flooded. Why did they have no house insurance? Because they are irresponsible and they know they will always get bailed out as they have this peculiar sacred cow status in society.

The Middle Class however are expected to look after themselves. No house insurance and your house gets flooded? Tough sh1t.

I don't expect handouts from the government, but I do think a level playing field would be nice, rather than the institutionalised pampering of the 'underpriviledged'. How are they ever going to grow up when they are continually treated like children by the state?

And incidentally I'm not assuming anything - this is based on observation over the last 8 years of living in working class areas

gurramok

magpie wrote:

See edit to OP re: the whole Child Care / Benefit issue.

Brain bypass caused me to type benefit, when I actually meant care. The point being that child care costs in and around €800 per pre-school child per month and there is no tax break or other meaningful allowance to cover this for those persons who have to work to support a mortgage.



As I'm sure you appreciate, the concept of the Middle Class is about aspiration, not monetary wealth. Traditionally the working class have had far more disposable income to spend on flash clothes, big tvs etc, whereas the Middle Classes save money for their childrens' education, wear knackered old cords, drive around in old rustbuckets and read 'broadsheet' newspapers. Or maybe that 'Good Life' style of Middle Classness has been eliminated by the increasing polarisation of Irish Society into those that can afford a Range Rover and those that can't.



Again, you seem to be missing the point entirely. The less well off are the Middle Class, as they have to support mortgages and pay for child care.

Oh yes, thats the same middle class that are squeezed who dropped their kids wearing clothes bought in Dundrum S.C. to school in the new SUV , oh wait i might be generalising..or not

magpie

Oh yes, thats the same middle class that are squeezed who dropped their kids wearing clothes bought in Dundrum S.C. to school in the new SUV

Try reading the thread. My entire point is that these people are not Middle Class - they are rich.

The Middle Class are a group of people who aspire to the better things in life, art, education, culture - and are normally skint.

People who drive enormous SUVs into the Dundrum Shopping Centre are vapid, venal, money-grubbing louts who are no better than the techno-blaring spliff smoking dolites. Neither groups have any appreciation for anything other than self-indulgence.

bonkey

the concept of the Middle Class is about aspiration, not monetary wealth.

Aspiration to what, if not the good things that monetary wealth can acquire?

magpie wrote:

Try reading the thread.

What a convincing argument.

My entire point is that these people are not Middle Class - they are rich.

And your complaint is about the costs facing the middle class, despite it not being about money?

So, people who want the best for their kids, and can afford to provide it....are rich.
People who want teh best for their kids and can't afford it and who make personal sacrifices...are middle-class.
People who want the best for themselves....are working-class.

This seems to be your breakdown.

The Middle Class are a group of people who aspire to the better things in life, art, education, culture - and are normally skint.

And any of them who aren't normally skint are, in your book, rich?

So...basically you're complaining about how badly off a group are....despite the fact that by your own definition they have to be badly off or else they wouldn't count as part of that group any more.

Its almost as though you're complaining that those earning under 50K a year are never earning more than 50K a year (to pick an arbitrary figure). I mean...if the system changed, and they weren't as screwed as you're complaining about, they wouldn't be skint, the could afford many of the things they can't, and thus would no longer be middle class by your own definition!!!

HelterSkelter

magpie wrote:

What compounds the issue is that (judging by any number of threads on this board) not only do the Middle Class have to contend with all of the above, but the only housing they can afford is in 'Working' Class areas - so they are constantly hounded and harrassed by obnoxious kids, blaring techno, drunken brawls etc etc etc when they have to get up to go to work to pay their enormous mortgages, while the 'Working' Class get up at 12.00, wander round in their pyjamas and then watch Sky Sports on a 300 inch flatscreen while drinking cans and smoking spliff all day - supported by the Middle Class tax money.

magpie wrote:

The working class on the other hand get free housing, a range of benefits, leave their children with the grandparent who inhabits the same house (and/or lets them roam the streets causing trouble until all hours) and use all their disposable income indulging themselves

magpie, I have never heard such shíte in all my life. I am from a working class background and everyone I know works and struggle to make ends meet. None of my friends or family get handouts from the Government or anyone else. I find your comments quite insulting.

magpie

Aspiration to what

Education, culture, betterment.

if the system changed, and they weren't as screwed as you're complaining about, they wouldn't be skint, the could afford many of the things they can't, and thus would no longer be middle class by your own definition!!!

I think the key issue is housing, as the true Middle Class have no interest in enormous televisions, fancy clothes or flashy cars - however they are caught between two groups who are obsessed by acquiring exactly these material possessions - and it is the needs of these groups that seem to be uppermost in the mind of the government.

On the one hand there is housing avaialable in nice areas at prices that are only attainable to those that have always had money, and got richer through recent property booms. The myth of the dot com millionaire is usually trotted out at this point, but it was those people whose families owned multiple properties in the 60s/70s/80s that made the real money. And these people are by definition (my definition anyway), not Middle Class.

On the other hand the state provides free (or near as dammit) housing to a historically underpriviledged group who now enjoy the same availability of employment and education as everyone else, whether they choose to take it up or not.

Given that income seems to be the bottom line (at least for many people responding to this thread), surely a sensible approach would be to remove the artificial distinction between the Middle and working classes by making the stock of state housing available to purchase at market rates.

This would have the effect of making the working classes grow up (its hard to stay up til 6 am blaring techno if you have to get up to work to pay the mortgage) and would allow for everyone to have a more peaceful life.

I don't care how big my house or car are, I just want to be able to go about my business peacably without having my working responsibilities compromised by people who think its their god-given right to indulge themselves at everyone else's expense.

magpie

I am from a working class background

What does that mean? I'm from a Working Class 'background' too if you go back a generation or two. But in the 1900s being Working Class meant something different to what it does today. Have you got a 3rd Level Education, Do you have a White Collar job? So what are you, Middle Class or Working Class?

This is interesting - from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class

In the United States by the end of the twentieth century, more people identified themselves as middle class than as lower or "working" class, with insignificant numbers identifying themselves as upper class. In contrast, in the United Kingdom, many who traditionally would be considered middle class today identify themselves as working class. In recent surveys up to two-thirds of Britons tend to identify themselves as working class. This has been described as a form of "inverse snobbery."

HelterSkelter

magpie wrote:

What does that mean? I'm from a Working Class 'background' too if you go back a generation or two. But in the 1900s being Working Class meant something different to what it does today. Have you got a 3rd Level Education, Do you have a White Collar job? So what are you, Middle Class or Working Class?

I'll let you decide, I live in a "working class" area, my immediate family all have "working class" jobs. I have a 3rd level education and a well paying job. But I can't even afford to buy a house in the "working class" area I live in. What hope does that give my brother, for example, who earns a lot less than me?

BTW, in relation to your point about taxes being high, are you just talking about income taxes or including stealth taxes, VAT, stamp duty as well? I don't think our income taxes are too high, I do better here than I would earning the same salary in the UK, it is the other hidden taxes that kill us.

magpie wrote:

This is interesting - from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_class

I don't understand why people quote an online website than can be amended by anybody to make their point.

el Bastardo

HelterSkelter wrote:

magpie, I have never heard such shíte in all my life. I am from a working class background and everyone I know works and struggle to make ends meet. None of my friends or family get handouts from the Government or anyone else. I find your comments quite insulting.

Well then you're obviously not working class then

magpie

I can't even afford to buy a house in the "working class" area I live in. What hope does that give my brother, for example, who earns a lot less than me?

I've had this conversation with people in the areas I've lived in over the years, who view me as a 'rich' blow-in who can afford to buy a house.

I point out that I don't own an enormous flatscreen TV, I drive a sh1tty old car, I don't spend more than €20 a week on entertainment (so can't afford to go to the pub), I don't have a huge club-standard stereo and all my income goes into supporting a long mortgage.

I managed to save for my first deposit over a 3 year period of working and not spending money on disposable rubbish or indulging myself - while at the same time renting a flat at full market rates.

How it is that people who are allocated council housing, pay minimal rents and have a regular income can't afford to buy a house anywhere escapes me. Maybe 'afford' means 'not have to change my lifestyle in order to purchase'?

hmmm

I think the OP by talking about "working class" may have actually meant "unemployed skanger class" which omits anyone who actually bothers to get up to go to work in the morning.

Dub13

hmmm wrote:

I think the OP by talking about "working class" may have actually meant "unemployed skanger class" which omits anyone who actually bothers to get up to go to work in the morning.

I agree,there are a lot of working class people who struggle as well and do not live of the state.

magpie

omits anyone who actually bothers to get up to go to work in the morning.

You may be right, is there an acceptable term to describe these people?

HelterSkelter

magpie wrote:

You may be right, is there an acceptable term to describe these people?

Yeah, fúcking wasters.

bonkey

magpie wrote:

I point out that I don't own an enormous flatscreen TV, I drive a sh1tty old car, I don't spend more than €20 a week on entertainment (so can't afford to go to the pub), I don't have a huge club-standard stereo and all my income goes into supporting a long mortgage.

So your income goes to support your material acquisition of an expensive fixed asset.

A house is neither cultural, educational, nor artistic. These things, in fact, are what you have sacrificed in order to own a house, because you can't afford them having less then 20 yoyos a week to spend on entertainment.

Your priority was, therefore, to spend your money on an acquisition, rather than on something cultural or artistic or educational. You could even argue that your acquisition is an investment.

You've put either the acquisition of material possessions (in your case a house) and/or investment (that would be a monetary concern) above education, art, culture etc. (which would be "entertainment").

So by your own definitions, you're not really middle-class at all, are you?

I hope your house is in what you've defined as a working-class area, or you're so non-middle-class (according to your own definition) its not even amusing.

Having said that, I'm sure you'll be outraged by this suggestion, and will subsequently redefine things so that you fit into the class you so obviously want to define as "what I am" as opposed to anything vaguely aproaching a broad, real-world scope.

Then you can resume your scathing denouncement of anyone who's better or worse off than you....or anyone who basically has different priorities in life to you, or who has the same priorities but a significantly different financial position. They're all damnable, right?

Of course, I should point out that the more you tighten your definition of what constitutes middle-class, the fewer the number of people who can be counted as same. Sooner or later (if we're not already there), we'll get to the point where your definition is so narrow, that hte correct response to your original "when will they revolt" question will be self-evident:

Who cares? There aren't enough of them to change anything, as the working class and rich combined vastly outnumber them.

bonkey

magpie wrote:

You may be right, is there an acceptable term to describe these people?

Why worry about acceptability now?

Leon11

Magpie you are the type of person who goes into a restaurant makes excessive demands because it makes you feel important and then at the end leaves without tipping.

On the other hand "working class" or "upper class" will be a pleasure to serve, are very humble and will tip well.

My point, you are trying to aspire to something to something you are obviously not and will be resentful for the rest of your life because you will see people you deem above and below you as having more than you and hate to see that they are able to enjoy life without trying to be pretentious or obnoxious.

I am making these assumptions based on what you have posted just as you have made assumptions based on others in your post.

I hope you enjoy scrimping through life so that you may become more socially acceptable to others.