Middle Class Revolt

magpie

So your income goes to support your material acquisition of an expensive fixed asset.

A house is neither cultural, educational, nor artistic. These things, in fact, are what you have sacrificed in order to own a house, because you can't afford them having less then 20 yoyos a week to spend on entertainment.

Your priority was, therefore, to spend your money on an acquisition, rather than on something cultural or artistic or educational. You could even argue that your acquisition is an investment.

You've put either the acquisition of material possessions (in your case a house) and/or investment (that would be a monetary concern) above education, art, culture etc. (which would be "entertainment").

When you've finished raging against the machine, as I'm not eligible for 'social' housing I have two choices - one pay exorbitant rent and have no tenure or two, buy a house.

Your suggestion that buying a house is the acquisition of a material possession is facile at best. Those persons with a family to support need at a very minimum to have a secure place from which to base themselves.

I hope your house is in what you've defined as a working-class area

Bloody right it is, which is why I have to contend with constant noise, drunkenness, litter and other irresponsible, antisocial behaviour.

broad, real-world scope

Which is presumably what you think you're providing?

Be so kind as to give me your broad, real-world definitions of the different classes as they exist now.

Magpie you are the type of person who goes into a restaurant makes excessive demands because it makes you feel important and then at the end leaves without tipping.

Yes, yes, of course :rolleyes: I take it you work in a restaurant then? Which one?

On the other hand "working class" or "upper class" will be a pleasure to serve, are very humble and will tip well.

So how do you define people from these categories?

My point, you are trying to aspire to something to something you are obviously not and will be resentful for the rest of your life because you will see people you deem above and below you as having more than you and hate to see that they are able to enjoy life without trying to be pretentious or obnoxious.

What am I aspiring to Dr Freud?

I hope you enjoy scrimping through life so that you may become more socially acceptable to others.

No, I'm saving so that my family can have a better future. I had no idea that this idea had become so reprehensible in Modern-day Ireland.

Tabnabs

Leon11 wrote:

On the other hand "working class" or "upper class" will be a pleasure to serve, are very humble and will tip well.

You obviously have little real experience of serving these type of people. "Upper Class" old money are generally very well mannered and a pleasure to deal with. "Upper Class" new money are a shower of absolute a$$holes with a major ego deficiency (and their kids are ill mannered scum). Working class are either lovely salt of the earth types or "I know my rights" idiots.

On another point, the OP says:
"I managed to save for my first deposit over a 3 year period of working and not spending money on disposable rubbish or indulging myself - while at the same time renting a flat at full market rates."

So they are obviously not middle class at all. They could afford to save while paying full rent, it took only three years to save for a deposit and this was their "first deposit". Are we to understand from this statement that they now live in their second or subsequent dwelling? Well for some...

oscarBravo

Leon11, don't get personal. Thanks.

bonkey

magpie wrote:

Your suggestion that buying a house is the acquisition of a material possession is facile at best.

There's nothing facile about it. You just don't like the fact that I've pointed out that buying a house makes financial sense, despite your own insistence that "the concept of the Middle Class is about aspiration, not monetary wealth".

You want the tenure - the financial security - that owning a house gives you.

Over time, your mortgage will not increase with inflation, but rent will. Thus again its financially sensible.

Maybe you may want it because renting is "dead money", because you want some assets to have in case you need care in your later years, or because you'd like a legacy to pass on to your kids, but every single one of these reasons is tied back to monetarism, whether they are also aspirational or not.

I would also hazard that the reason you bought a house in an area you so obviously despise is so that you're on "the property ladder". If you can afford it, you will move up this ladder whenever the opportunity appears.

Question - should you manage to do so, will you cease to be middle class? After all, you'll be able to afford a house somewhere other than where middle-class people can afford houses!

This entire house-owning thing is irrelevant. Its nothing to do with your offered definition of middle-class. In fact, it contradicts your definition of middle-class, except that you want to see house-ownership as some "middle-classians burden"

Which is presumably what you think you're providing?

No, its not...and you know that.

If it was what I was providing, or if you thought it was, you wouldn't have asked the following question, would you?:

Be so kind as to give me your broad, real-world definitions of the different classes as they exist now.

See? Why would you ask me to do this if you seriously thought I had already done so?

Why would you suggest I had already done so if you were going to ask this question?

DId you change your mind from sentence to sentence? Or are you just too caught up disagreeing with everything from everyone who won't join your revolution that you didn't notice?

Anyway...the wikipedia article you've already quoted from would be a reasonable starting point. Given that you've quoted from it, and found its claims interesting, its surprising that your own definition has so little in common with it.

I don't see much benefit in giving you more definitions when you haven't already explained why those from sources you're willing to quote aren't acceptable.

You could also consider how the following groups of people would fit into your categories:

1) People who were in your financial position 10 years ago.
2) People who would like to buy a house, but can't afford to no matter how much they scrimp and save
3) People not on social housing, who can afford rent and all the lifestyle choices you are so vehemently complaining about
4) You, in 10 years time, when you can afford a better house in a different area, and have found that your financial situation is no longer so strict that your family can have that better future you currently dream of for them.
5) People who don't live in cities.

No, I'm saving so that my family can have a better future.
I had no idea that this idea had become so reprehensible in Modern-day Ireland.

Its not.

Complaining that you're the one who is hard done by society, when you can afford a house and to put money away for the future is whats so reprehensible. Your generalisations regarding anyone in a worse or better financial situation than you are are reprehensible.

The reality is that there are those far worse off than you who can't be blamed for the situation they find themselves in.
The reality is that your complaint boils down to "why can't I have more", when as you already point out, you have quite a lot...but you denigrate anyone worse off than you with some fictitious notion that they somehow all choose to live that way.

The point being that child care costs in and around €800 per pre-school child per month and there is no tax break or other meaningful allowance to cover this for those persons who have to work to support a mortgage.

Lest I forget this...

Imagine these costs were abolished tomorrow. You know what would happen? You'd discover you had 800 a month per child to play with.

Thats big money. Why, you could possibly afford a nicer house with that. You could move...trade up....be a rich person rather than a middle-classer by living in a middle-class area instead of a working-class one!!!

Of course, all those other families in your situation would be in the same boat. Those with more kids than you would be even better off. And they'd all want nicer houses too, I guess.

So house prices would rocket by an amount commensurate with the extra monies people had available, and the next version of you would be here complaining about how stupid the governemtn was to use their tax-money to pay for some double-income family's childcare thus driving up housing costs.

House prices rocketed in part because double-income became more of a widespread reality. As a result, families had more money to spend on things like houses, which drove up prices. Giving you more money to buy a house for your family with is only going to make houses more expensive.

The_Scary_Man

I've got to agree with bonkey here, I can't find any point or argument of any substance in the OP.

You seem to be grouping people into social classes based on their actions or aspirations. Pretty strange criteria for social classification in my opinion. Dickheads are prevalent all through the social spectrum not just the working class.

I admire the fact that you are sacrificing for the sake of your children but maybe you are over-stretching yourself to attain this goal. Its a noble act to sacrifice for your children but if you don't loosen the purse strings and let yourself live a little then the world will seem like an unfair and ****ty place.

You have placed these restrictions on yourself, these are choices you have made and I would imagine that you knew it would be tough when you took the decision so why are you now looking to cast the working class as the villains of the piece? I don't really see how the working class are making your predicament worse except in a perceptual manner.

You think that because you see yourself as working harder and sacrificing more that you deserve more of a break? Sorry mate thats not how it works, the system can be unfair, remember that its not designed to create a better situation for the individual its designed to make a better society and we all suffer as individuals as a result.

There are no good guys and bad guys and casting the blame for the ills of society on one group is most definitely not the way to go about making it better.

Kashkai

Just a thought - am I'm open to correction on this - but isn't this country we live in A REPUBLIC? You know, where all citizens are equal. I thought the class system was a throwback to the British.

I started reading Magpie's thread with some amusement but then the OP started making veiled insults towards what Magpie considers to be "working class" people and their neighbourhoods. I grew up in a "working class" family and in a "working class" neighbourhood. My Dad is a labourer and my mother a cleaner, both still working in their 60's (working class I presume Magpie?).

I had a good leaving cert but couldn't afford to go to third level (like you in the "middle class" Magpie). My lack of a third level degree didn't stop me getting good jobs such as Supermarket assistant manager, legal clerk, air traffic controller etc. Not bad for a scanger from a "working class" area. This scanger now has a lovely house in the countryside because I couldn't bear to live in my old "working class" area where "middle class" blow ins like Magpie do nothing but bitch and moan about the people who have lived there all their lives and who obviously annoy the sensibilities of the likes of Magpie.

Get a life pal - if you don't like where you live, then move. From your rants above, I'm sure your neighbours will help you pack.;)

Cantab.

The_Scary_Man wrote:

I've got to agree with bonkey here, I can't find any point or argument of any substance in the OP.

You seem to be grouping people into social classes based on their actions or aspirations. Pretty strange criteria for social classification in my opinion. Dickheads are prevalent all through the social spectrum not just the working class.

I admire the fact that you are sacrificing for the sake of your children but maybe you are over-stretching yourself to attain this goal. Its a noble act to sacrifice for your children but if you don't loosen the purse strings and let yourself live a little then the world will seem like an unfair and ****ty place.

You have placed these restrictions on yourself, these are choices you have made and I would imagine that you knew it would be tough when you took the decision so why are you now looking to cast the working class as the villains of the piece? I don't really see how the working class are making your predicament worse except in a perceptual manner.

You think that because you see yourself as working harder and sacrificing more that you deserve more of a break? Sorry mate thats not how it works, the system can be unfair, remember that its not designed to create a better situation for the individual its designed to make a better society and we all suffer as individuals as a result.

There are no good guys and bad guys and casting the blame for the ills of society on one group is most definitely not the way to go about making it better.

Thanks for that insight.

I think there are winners and losers from every economic boom. The winners are sitting in their spanish villas and looking forward to the afternoon tee-off. The losers are sitting bleary-eyed on the M50 (or in a Morton bus) on their daily trudge to work. The moral of the story is: life's tough - work smart, not hard. I do often laugh to myself when I see a "super-commuter" i.e. those to be seen with their headphones, suitable reading material and portable chair going off to some far-off place with not a care in the world.

But it's not fair. It's not a model by which we should base our society on: it should be based on merit, and not on cute-hoorism. It seems to me as if Magpie has been left out - his cries are valid, but the cries will not stop unless you play your hand and pro-actively change things for yourself. Too many people in modern Ireland are working too hard that they never get the time to stop, think and realise that they're taking it up the ass (I'm thinking of that happy commuter on the Arrow again).

daithimac

I once saw a film with Peter Cook in it where there was a pre-internet version of the www.e-democracy.ie Idea.

Cook played a british prime-minister who put every issue up to a vote of the people, this however was only a ploy to make the british people sick of this version of total democracy.

Eventually they became so weary of the constant votes that they allowed him to take total control and become the UKs first president with dictitorial powers

which leads me to the question what are you up to Darragh29

oscarBravo

magpie wrote:

I take it you work in a restaurant then? Which one?

...

What am I aspiring to Dr Freud?

Let's not get personal, y'all.

Leon11

I did not mean to get personal at all however sometimes I can't help but comment on certain topics when people come across on a forum a particular way.

Yes, I work in a restaurant in a working class area that is frequented by all types of people. I work there to support myself as I'm currently in college. The point of tipping I made was in hindsight irrelevant, however it was used to try justify (albeit a poor example) my case that some people try to hard to aspire to things that will leave them feeling drained and depressed at everything around them instead of embracing what they have.

billy the squid

magpie wrote:

People who drive enormous SUVs into the Dundrum Shopping Centre are vapid, venal, money-grubbing louts who are no better than the techno-blaring spliff smoking dolites. Neither groups have any appreciation for anything other than self-indulgence.

which class are they in?

I have to admit I am a little confused. I was always of the belief that Working classes were the people who did the jobs that no one else wanted. worked in ****hole factories, went down mines, drove busses and trains and taxis and stuff.

middle classes were the ones whos Mammy and Daddy had "jobs for life" in some office and drove their kids to school in flash cars.

The upper classes were people who were just literally rolling in Money. but tried to be modest about how much they were worth.

It is strange how you refer to layabouts as "working class"

It could be that your perception of these classes is different to mine. Where i come from the working class, well, work.

I work and am still skint, what class does that make me. working or middle class?

for instance during the last bout of flooding it gave taxpayers' money to the working class who had no house insurance and whose homes were flooded. Why did they have no house insurance? Because they are irresponsible and they know they will always get bailed out as they have this peculiar sacred cow status in society.

Would you have left them roam the streets?

The Middle Class are a group of people who aspire to the better things in life, art, education, culture - and are normally skint.

The artists and the culturalists get their fair share of handouts from the government. Are artists not entitled to a tax free life in this country?

J.S. Pill

No matter how hard done by Mr & Mrs 'I have to live in f**king Lucan' feel, there is never going to be any kind of meaningful middle class revolt. You see the 'I have to live in f**king Lucan' types aren't usually the most reliable voters percisely because they have to live in f**king Lucan. Do you realy think getting to the polling station is going to be on these people's priority list when they finially get back to Lucan at half 8 and have to get the kids ready for school the next day???

I'm not just speculating here - I read about this phenomenon in a reputable publication a while back...honest

bonkey

J.S. Pill wrote:

No matter how hard done by Mr & Mrs 'I have to live in f**king Lucan' feel, there is never going to be any kind of meaningful middle class revolt. You see the 'I have to live in f**king Lucan' types aren't usually the most reliable voters percisely because they have to live in f**king Lucan.

Maybe I've been misunderstanding the OPs complaints, but there's no way that Lucan is one of the "working class areas" that OP describes.

Cantab.

J.S. Pill wrote:

No matter how hard done by Mr & Mrs 'I have to live in f**king Lucan' feel, there is never going to be any kind of meaningful middle class revolt. You see the 'I have to live in f**king Lucan' types aren't usually the most reliable voters percisely because they have to live in f**king Lucan. Do you realy think getting to the polling station is going to be on these people's priority list when they finially get back to Lucan at half 8 and have to get the kids ready for school the next day???

I'm not just speculating here - I read about this phenomenon in a reputable publication a while back...honest

Whilst your tone is a tad below the belt, you're right about voting patterns. The Lucan-ites are too busy working and commuting to stop and think about what's going on around them. Pensioners, upper middle-class people and farmers are who you should be targeting!

And besides, even if the commuter class do vote, they're under-represented because so many of them have moved to the Kildare/North Wicklow/Meath/Louth areas in the last couple of years - there being no plans to alter the electoral areas before the next election. "Keep 'em penned in around the Lucan region, and let the rest of us get on with business & politics" says Paddy Public Representative.

HelterSkelter

bonkey wrote:

Maybe I've been misunderstanding the OPs complaints, but there's no way that Lucan is one of the "working class areas" that OP describes.

"Lucan", a.k.a Clondalkin West.

Cantab.

bonkey wrote:

Maybe I've been misunderstanding the OPs complaints, but there's no way that Lucan is one of the "working class areas" that OP describes.

Working, middle and upper class are effectively irrelevant in a modern context.

Society has been stratified in a very complicated way, particularly in the advent of our Celtic economic boom. I am very interested in this!

I would say we have:
- leisured class (landlords who play golf each morning and enjoy weekends away to their villas in Tuscanny. Have made their money and buy a new S-class Mercedes every year)
- commuter class (spends at least 2 hours a day in a car/bus, works in a multi-nat and earns less than 40k)
- bureaucratic class (lives a quiet life, generally middle-aged, works in a government job from 10-4, minimises the amount of work he/she does unlike the commuter class who are forced into productivity. Earns about 40-60k)
- Cash class (probably works as a builder, electrician, carpenter, earns about 2k a week, works hard, enjoys banter with his site-mates, drinks at the same pub each Friday/Saturday, built his own house, happily married and goes on holidays to Disney Land and the Costa Del Sol. Drives a Nissan diesel pick-up truck. Happy as Larry kind.)
- Landed class (own land, probably in receipt of EU payments, can avail of loads of government grants, large house, kids in college, plenty of money from selling 1/4 acre sites to city folk who think they've "made it" and yearn a quiet life "in the country" on their 1/4 acre)
- Service class (work in a 9-5 job, probably a bank/insurance/administration, wear fancy clothes, socialise in generic bars [e.g. the Odeon, Ron Blacks, etc.], always looking down on people, live beyond their means off credit cards, drive an old 02/03 mercedes clk which they got a car loan for, no savings, waiting for their parents to die, generally rent in nice areas, under 35)
- Connected class (lawyers, politicians, high-level civil servants, estate agents, etc. Scratch my back - i'll scratch yours variety, control deals and manage contracts, earn lucrative salaries, sworn to dark secrets, work hard, play hard)

Can't think of anymore classes right now... anyone care to add any?

Zombrex

Considering that unemployment is at a record low (approx 4.5% from the last few years), I'm not quite sure where the OP got the image that the "working" class is made up of druggies who sit around all day doing nothing while living off state benefits that apparently pay for high definition televisions along with their drug habit.

This thread seems more about a non-sensical rant against social welfare benefits than a serious consideration into the issues facing the middle class in Ireland. As far as I can tell the middle class seem quite happy, considering that when the few that do vote actually do they keep re-electing FF.

Sgt. Sensible

magpie wrote:

No, not the album by The Fall.

That's a pity. I would have had great pleasure in pointing out that there are few bands whose music and attitude over the last 30 years could be more inimical to middle class values than The Fall.

Have a listen to anti-yuppie anthem C.R.E.E.P or Hey! Student sometime.


check the guy's track record

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tqf_EXBZxK8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wygQmJ59E4Q

magpie

That 4.5% must all live in my street then.

Sgt. Sensible

The working class has been shafted
So what the f**k you sneering at?
Your prerogative in life it seems
Is living out an ad man's dream

Idiot Joy Showland (Shift Work - The Fall)

:eek:

bonkey

magpie wrote:

That 4.5% must all live in my street then.

What all 90,000 odd of them?

Thats a bloody big street you've got there.

Collie D

magpie wrote:

No, not the album by The Fall.

I'm just wandering when this is going to happen - at present the Middle Class are getting squeezed as they earn too much to qualify for benefits but don't have access to the fortunes of those who had money in the first place to invest in property and thus get even richer.

Look at the facts

House Prices at record highs
EDIT / Child care extortionate
High Taxes

What compounds the issue is that (judging by any number of threads on this board) not only do the Middle Class have to contend with all of the above, but the only housing they can afford is in 'Working' Class areas - so they are constantly hounded and harrassed by obnoxious kids, blaring techno, drunken brawls etc etc etc when they have to get up to go to work to pay their enormous mortgages, while the 'Working' Class get up at 12.00, wander round in their pyjamas and then watch Sky Sports on a [EDIT/ hyperbole removed]36 inch flatscreen while drinking cans and smoking spliff all day - supported by the Middle Class tax money.

So, how much longer will the MC take it? What can be done?

May I suggest you move to the UK and start votring Conservative because you sound like one