Just something to get vocals heard at band practices/ shed gigs.

OLP

Hi, we practice in our drummers shed, sharing it with another band, both bands are all mates so we're looking to get some sort of small PA system to get vocals heard cause right now we're putting mics through 10/15W bass amps and it's just not loud enough. Our budget is roughly around 450, I know it's not alot, but we only need something small. I've got my eye on this but I dunno if it'll work.

http://www.thomann.de/ie/the_box_pa110a.htm Speaker

http://www.thomann.de/ie/the_tmix_pm400.htm Mixer

Will that work?

Eoin Madsen

Well, that's an active speaker and an active mixer. You'd need to pair a passive speaker with a powered mixer like that. Tbh, that speaker is a little low-powered anyway, whether active or passive. You'll also need a stand for it or something to get it to at least head height.

I would suggest this:
http://www.thomann.de/ie/yamaha_mg102_8kanal_mischpult.htm
and
http://www.thomann.de/ie/the_box_ma1520_aktivmonitor.htm

A monitor speaker is also what you'll be facing in a gig situation, so should prepare you a little better for the real deal.

Paladin

If you are sharing this setup, and its just for vocals to practice with in a shed then for about E229:

http://www.thomann.de/ie/tmix_the_box_pm400_pa_set_1.htm

Its not world class but for practice in a shed? Chalk it down.

OLP

Paladin's suggestion looks perfect for the job! Thanks alot.

Eoin Madsen

Not enough power to compete comfortably with a drum kit in close quarters, imo. But tbh, I thought my suggestion was a bit cheap and nasty.

OLP

Well both the bands are pretty heavy with energetic, loud vocalists. The thing is the whole active/passive thing confuses me so I just want something simple.

Eoin Madsen

It's simple enough really. The active part of the setup is basically the amplifier. Sometimes it's in the mixer, sometimes it's in the speaker. And sometimes it's on its own. The bottom line is that you only need one amplifier in the system.

Active mixer + passive speaker = good
Passive mixer + active speaker = good
Passive mixer + passive speaker = no sound
Active mixer + active speaker = possible fire

A louder vocalist wouldn't help, the power of that system just isn't high enough to provide enough clean headroom - in my opinion. I think the 250 watt active monitor is a better way to go. It'll be easier to set up, easier to move around, and you'll get less feedback with a monitor wedge than you would with a speaker on a stand.

Savman

Vocal monitors should be upwards of 200w, whichever config you go with. If the speakers are going to be further away from the Vocalist then you'll need more power, simple as.

Make sure you get 10" or 12" speakers as they work best for live vocals. With a budget of €450 the suggestions you've received so far as probably as good as you're gonna get.

OLP

Right, I've decided to go with Eoin Madsen's original suggestion, only one thing, this may seem stupid,but which is the speaker out on that mixer? :

OLP

Right, so this is what I'm looking at



Anything I've gotten wrong?

Eoin Madsen

That would work.

What kind of mic are you using? Ideally, I'd suggest you use an XLR to XLR for the mic - it'll be a higher input, and will pick up less noise.

You might also find it simpler to get your hands on a jack-to-jack cable for the connection to the speaker. Which will work just as well in this case. If you can get a balanced jack lead it should work a little better.

Eoin Madsen

OLP wrote:

only one thing, this may seem stupid,but which is the speaker out on that mixer? :

Probably the one you've drawn a line from. It'll be clearly marked when you see it up close - usually as "main mix" or "master mix" with an L and an R jack output. You could use either L or R.

OLP

Some ****e on we got in town, can't remember the make, we have an XLR to Jack lead already cos we were using the bass amps, would XLR to XLR be better? I don't think there's a jack input to that speaker, looking at the 360 view.

Eoin Madsen

XLR to XLR for the mic would be better alright.

Just looking there myself - it's actually just a hybrid xlr/jack input. The jack goes in the middle of it. It's mentioned in the spec of it as well. It makes no difference if you use jack to jack or jack to male xlr, but jack to male xlr leads are harder to come by. If you can get a balanced lead it would be the best-case scenario, but don't worry too much about that.

OLP

I'll be odering everything off thomann so I can get any leads from there, whats a balanced lead?

Eoin Madsen

Here's a balanced jack lead: http://www.thomann.de/ie/cae_1761075_audiokabel.htm
They don't seem to do any other types, just that kind in different lengths (that's the longest).

Balanced leads like TRS jack leads or XLR leads have an extra connection. They use phase inversion to reduce noise and interference picked up along the cable run.

david

One of these would be better to use as a monitor, with the option of pole mounting and picking up another one if you expand, the specs look better too
http://www.thomann.de/ie/the_box_pa203_15a.htm

That has a built in Mic pre too so you wont need a mixer for the moment if you want to just run one mic

Eoin Madsen

The spec is not particularly better. Those speakers don't sit on the ground, the sides are curved.

OLP

Hmm.. the box one is better on our wallets, and seems to be just as loud. and would leave money for another mic.

Eoin Madsen

They're both made by the same company. I would have recommended the other if I thought it were better for the task. But it's your wallet.

david

If you wanna get a full cheap semi decent PA, I'd suggest these if you can get the money, I think it has everything you need

david

If you want to use them as active tops in the future, then the ones i linked are better, the wattage is low but i think they're better specc'd overall, biamped 200+50w

Eoin Madsen

In fairness, you don't need a PA to practice, you need a monitor. Aiming a PA at yourself is a scenario that is never going to arise in any gigging situation - and for good cause. At the very least I'd suggest putting one of those foh speakers on the ground and trying to balance it on something to aim it upwards.

They have different cabling, so if that's the direction you're going make sure you update your cable buying plans.

david

Well no point playing a gig with a monitor as the primary FOH amplification either . AFAIK they both have mic pre's no?

Eoin Madsen

Venues already have speakers. If anything, you're a hell of a lot more likely to need to bring a monitor to a gig than speakers for the foh. Worrying about a live rig (or more likely, not) is a whole different issue, and on this budget I don't think it should enter into consideration at all anyway.

david

Yeah, but a lot of venues I play have far worse PA's than that. Its shameful, did they not have an active the box install in Fibber Magees? Heard it was decent sound.

OLP

Right... now yis have just confused me. We're not botherd about a live set-up, just amplifying vocals for practices.

david

Well then get the first active top i linked and throw a shoe box or something under it to tilt it up. Get a mic and an XLR cable and you should have everything for < €250

!_Brian_!

Go with the monitor option I'd say. Thats what we did. We only have one vocalist so we just bought a 250 watt powered moniter and plugged the mic direct into that, worked fine.

OLP

Ah, we have 3 vocalists and we'd prefere 3 seperate mics, thats why we'd need a mixer, or that Box speaker cos it has 3 line in's.

david

You cant plug a mic into a line in. Well you can but it'll be seriously low in volume, if you have three vocalists then a single monitor is far from ideal.

OLP

right, would a monitor and mixer do it for 3 mics?

david

Just about, halfarsed

Savman

Yes small mixer + active monitor. You can get another active monitor in a few months if you want and daisy chain it up. Next year you could get 2 Active Tops and you have yourself a whole PA. So the mixer + monitor leaves itself open to future integration if you so wish.

Remember lads, it's easy to spend someone else's money
I wouldn't tell someone to buy something I wouldn't buy myself.

Personally I'd go with http://www.thomann.de/ie/db_technologies_opera_402_live_aktivbox.htm over any Thomann shop brand gear but to each his own eh?

OLP

Right, I've got this lined up, I know it wouldn't be loud for a gig but I reckon it'd plenty loud for a shed.

http://www.thomann.de/ie/mackie_by_tapco_mix_120.htm

http://www.thomann.de/ie/the_box_sm100_aktivmonitor.htm

Savman

OLP wrote:

Right, I've got this lined up, I know it wouldn't be loud for a gig but I reckon it'd plenty loud for a shed.

http://www.thomann.de/ie/mackie_by_tapco_mix_120.htm

http://www.thomann.de/ie/the_box_sm100_aktivmonitor.htm

Sorry but 100w is underpowered for a vocal monitor, in a "heavy" band it wouldnt be much better than shouting at the top of yer voice. You can go for any aul mixer in the €100 category they're all much of a muchness, but you're speaker relies on raw power.

You'd nearly want 2 of those sm100 boxes per vocalist

OLP

I've decided on the Mackie mixer. Would this monitor do?

http://www.thomann.de/ie/tc_electronic_voicesolo_vsm_200.htm

Savman

OLP wrote:

I've decided on the Mackie mixer. Would this monitor do?

http://www.thomann.de/ie/tc_electronic_voicesolo_vsm_200.htm

TC-Helicon VoiceSolo VSM-200, Active Voice Monitor, 150 Watt (200 Watt Peak)

You've gone from 100w to 150w.

If you want I can lie and tell you it'd work fine but the reality is you will struggle to hear anything below 200w (even thats being conservative).

Unfortunately, music gear is not dictated by what you set as your budget...

OLP

Okay, but what about

http://www.thomann.de/ie/the_box_pa202a.htm

I know it's a speaker and not a monitor but whats the difference?

Savman

OLP wrote:

Okay, but what about

http://www.thomann.de/ie/the_box_pa202a.htm

I know it's a speaker and not a monitor but whats the difference?

A monitor is just a speaker so no difference whatsoever. But that particular speaker does not have the body shape to allow it lie on its side on the floor (so it can face up to the singer).

See you want a speaker for a specific purpose, which means you're not as flexible as you think. I think your ideal speaker may not be within your budget.

Eoin Madsen

The TC is very small, tbh I'm not sure it's really suitable for putting in a shed for three vocalists.

OLP wrote:

Right... now yis have just confused me. We're not botherd about a live set-up, just amplifying vocals for practices.

My suggestion still stands. As I see it, the bottom line is: putting speakers up on stands in an enclosed space like a shed is a feedback nightmare. You'll get more volume out of a floor monitor of equal wattage than a standing speaker, purely because the floor monitor won't feedback at as a low a volume.

OLP wrote:

right, would a monitor and mixer do it for 3 mics?

It's not ideal* but yes. Unless the drummer is one of the vocalists, in which case you will really need a seperate monitor speaker for the drum vocal if you want him or her to be able to hear themself.

*ideal is a 2000 euro monitor each, with expensive in-ear monitors and a monitoring engineer

Savman wrote:

I wouldn't tell someone to buy something I wouldn't buy myself.

Neither would I.

OLP

**** it, we're going with the speaker, we'll just prop it on it's side against something, there's loads of shìte in the shed.

Savman

Eoin Madsen wrote:

I've never heard that DB stuff in action, so I couldn't personally recommend it. Tbh, it's all made in the same place (China), so I'd be surprised if there's a whole lot of difference. Though the physical size of the DB enclosure you indicated would give it a relatively poor bass frequency response which would make me wary of its use in this context.

Why? The guy want's a vocal monitor, not something that will handle bass guitar or kick? You recommended he get a 15" speaker which has no benefits for a vocal wedge.

iirc the dB tech is Italian made, no links to China from any literature I've read (and I've 4 db speakers with "Made In Italy" on the back )

The OP wants a vocal wedge with enough power to handle 3 Vocalists and to cut thru amps and a drum kit in a small room. I've yet to see anything suitable for that exact circumstance and pretty much everything so far has had its drawbacks. If he's certain he wants cheap gear, what you suggested is probably the best of a bad bunch. If he wants something to do the job properly he'll need to broaden his horizons a bit and possibly creep over his budget which'd be worth it imo...

Savman

OLP wrote:

**** it, we're going with the speaker, we'll just prop it on it's side against something, there's loads of shìte in the shed.

If its just a case of throwing any old speaker in the corner with minimum of hassle, then buy exactly that. There are better options but if it works for you thats all that freakin matters.

Paladin

I am flabberghasted by the confusion created for this poor guy.
We are talking about practice in a shed for small money! Get the cheapest option that will do the job. If your not going using the rig you will gig with then it doesnt matter what you use to get heard.

In a shed if you cant get vocalists heard with 150W then you are going to have hearing damage. A shed ffs! That said a monitor like Eoin Madsen suggests can be used at a gig too, whereas cheap speakers really wont be.

Take your pick from Eoins or my suggestion (one or two others seem sane(ish) also ).
Save yer cash for a beer fridge for the shed
.
http://www.thomann.de/ie/tmix_the_bo...0_pa_set_1.htm

Savman

Paladin wrote:

I am flabberghasted by the confusion created for this poor guy.

Ah I dunno, I think he's been given decent advice so far bearing in mind its all a matter of opinion. He kept asking more questions so was always gonna get confusing...;)

Besides if he's taken any of it in he'll be that tiny bit more educated no?

Rancidmaniac13

If you still want more advice my band just uses a mixer and a little box that you can connect headphones to. You can hear the vocals fine and I'm sure it'd be cheaper. We're in the exact same situation as you and it works grand. Not sure what the name of the box thingy is but I could find out.