Another step towards Eurabia?

Zombrex

Prosperous Dave wrote:

They will not accept people like me who choose not to subscribe to a belief in a deity.

Who won't accept you, the iman you met in 1993 or Muslims (plural)

Cause I know a few Muslims who couldn't give too sh*ts about what religion I am, or you are. And as Hobbes points out I've had JW call to me door countless times in the lsat 15 years, I've never had a Muslim, or even heard of Muslims, calling around to people trying to convert them. Hell there were Hairy Krisnas (sp? ) beside the Liffy a few days ago trying to talk to me as I crossed the quays, and a ejjit from the Church of Scientology tried to get me to take a personality test on Abbey St. last month ("What a surprise, your test says you need Scientology")

The Islmic religion seems to be the one least interested in trying to convert people to their religion. Why were you even talking to an Imanm about this? Did he come up to you on the street or something? I mean if I go up to a priest to talk about Christianity I'm pretty sure the joys of being a Christian will come up at some point.

Hobbes

Prosperous Dave wrote:

I lived in the middle east and on three occasions, I was preached to by imams about the virtues of their religions and asked if I'd consider proclaiming Allah as the one true God and Mohammed as his prophet.

So three times in your whole life and those in a country that is prodomintly muslim. Sorry not seeing the majority there.

do you recall the beheadings of western hostages in Iraq that were broadcast over the net and the Al Jazeera network? In addition, Saudi Arabia does a nice line in public beheadings!!!

and wtf has that to do with Islam? Thats more do with the fact there is a war going on in Iraq.

And belle end something a bit better then a strawman ok?

Sesshoumaru

Here is another example of self censorship. A harmless amusing radio ad for a car dealership gets pulled after our thin skinned muslims start seething and whining.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iJqFxNH-HM

Kashkai

Hobbes wrote:

So three times in your whole life and those in a country that is prodomintly muslim. Sorry not seeing the majority there.




and wtf has that to do with Islam? Thats more do with the fact there is a war going on in Iraq.

And belle end something a bit better then a strawman ok?

Hobbes,

Ever lived in a muslim country? I have.

You might know of some watered down muslims that live in the west but I've seen these boys in their own backyard and they are a complete throwback to medieval times in their attitudes to women, sex, alcohol, and freedom of speech. They have an inbred hatred of the west and have little or no respect for human life, especially if that life is non-muslim.

Have you ever experienced muslim men leering at your wife, brushing up against her, groping her and making suggestive comments to her just because she's a westerner and therefore an "easy lay" in their eyes. And all this when their imam's preach that Islam has the highest respect for women!!!

And as for trying to convert me to islam, these three ocassions happened on my first three days in Abu Dhabi after which I kept to the westerners compound.

And finally, the imam's I mentioned threatened to put non believers to the sword and this is what happened to the hostages in Iraq by the Islamic captors who took their Koran literally. Oh and public beheadings of criminals are carried on in Saudi in accordance with Sharia law.

PS - YOUR TAGLINE OF IMPOSING WESTERN VALUES doesn't appear to fit with your defence of Islamic facsists who would love to see our way of life destroyed.

The_Scary_Man

toomevara wrote:

A performance of Mozart's Idomeneo, featuring a scene which shows the dismembered heads of Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed has been cancelled due to security concerns relating, not to offended christians or buddhists but surprise, surprise, you've guessed it, our thin skinned muslim friends.

Is this type of craven self censorship, unheard of only five years ago, handing a tacit victory to the foam flecked mullahs and their fellow travellers? Is this the thin end of the wedge, presaging the death of western, secular democracy.??..At what point will we say 'enough', and stand up for our values, or should I just pop down the local mosque and convert now and get it over with?

I agree totally that this is ridiculous, we cannot start limiting artistic expression based on the fact that it may offend one particular section of society. Its not as if this play was directing its singular attention to Islamic beliefs, Christianity and Buddhism were also given the same treatment.

I will say though that this seems to be a 'pre-emptive' move which has been taken without any actual threat having been made. Islam has taken on a new role in the psyche of the average 'westerner' in the past few years, it has been twisted and distorted to turn it into the bogeyman of world politics.

If this play had been allowed to go forward what exactly would have happened? There may have been protests in some European countries, some rallies in the Middle East maybe a little flag and effigy burning but little else that conventional policing could not have dealt with.

Contrary to popular belief the vast majority of Muslims don't hate us because of who we are or what we believe in. They may hate our governments, the UN, the EU and the US for what they may see as the systematic destabilisation and manipulation of their regional politics for our benefit but then again the may have a point on that one.

Another point to bring up is the fact that Muslims are not the only religion to have its fringe elements. Christianity has its own fair share of loons and extremists. You may have heard about a new movie out called Jesus Camp, it looks at the lives of some kids who are attending an evangelical camp in the US. Its actually not a far cry from the Hizzbollah camps shown on the Panorama doc on BBC recently.
Jesus Camp Movie Trailer


This broad demonisation of Islam is a sad thing to see in my opinion. I don't have any particular religious affiliations or beliefs myself but I respect the rights of anyone else to live by whatever belief system they choose once it doesn't cause harm to others.

There are what could easily be perceived to be Christian armies camped in the middle east now for years so maybe Middle Eastern people are living with that which westerners fear the most, an hegemonic power whose values differ greatly from our own.

In terms of world politics this suits boths sides in this conflict very well. If it did come down to just a question of the cold hard facts a lot of Americans and Europeans would have difficulty justifying military action in a foreign country based primarily on financial grounds. Tell people that they 'hate' us, our way of life and our belief systems though and the reason circuit is bypassed and we go straight to self-preservation mode. They must be wiped out before they get a chance to take away all the comforts and wealth we have worked so hard to accrue.

On the other side the demonization of the West, evidenced so literally recently in Hugo Chavez' speech to the UN, is heightened by changing the Muslim (and Third World) perception of the western invaders so they are not only seen as aggressors but as morally reprehensible imperialists who have gained control of world politics and are bent on enforcing their beliefs and value systems on the rest of the world.

We really need to start applying a little common sense to our perceptions of other peoples and faiths and realise that just because a person is of a particular religion doesn't mean that have a greater propensity for violence than ourselves.

The Corinthian

Hobbes wrote:

Let me know when you release your opera showing the you anally raping a child then we can talk about artistic freedom of expression.

Enough. There’s arguing moderation and then there’s being an apologist.

We, in the West, have the artistic freedom to portray anally raping a child on the stage or film - it’s been done repeatedly. Sometimes people get upset too at these things - but we don’t feel justified on masse to carry out acts of violence over them. So your analogy falls flat on its face.

The recent Islamic fashion for taking offence at any kind of criticism, while similarly being able to do so towards other faiths (typically Judaism) and Western secularism without apparently affording the same sense of reciprocation has gotten completely out of hand.

Ever since the cartoons debacle, this vocal and violent minority that, frankly, in many cases chooses not to integrate in our society even when they live along side us, has increasingly attempted censored us. Enough is enough.

Multiculturalism is about an exchange of values and cultures, enriching both - it is not about the colonisation of the host culture by another, which is unwilling to compromise on anything. That type of ‘multiculturalism’ will result only in the gettoization and inevitable radicalism we see today in the UK and France.

No doubt that will be all our fault too as far as you’re concerned :rolleyes:

Hobbes wrote:

I'd be surprised that anyone complaining would normally watch mozart to begin with.

Is this a puerile attempt to debase those complaining? If so I can point out that I’ve been to quite a few operas and recitals of works by Mozart, but don’t let that stop you employing such tactics.

samb

Prosperous Dave wrote:

Even after 9/11, and the Madrid and London bombings, politicians in the west were quick off the blocks telling their citizens not to blame all muslims for these attacks. To hell with that, our so called leaders should have been spewing fire and brimstone about how we in the democratised world will never bow down to the demands of a desert superstition, aka islam and its fanatical followers.
.

I agree with you entirely that we should not compromise with regard western free speech and values. But I disagree with the above statement strongly. What Bin Laden and the extremists want is a war, the popularity of there cause is growing because of the actions of Bush and Blair. If you go and kill a few hundred extremists and civilians the all their brothers, cousins, and uncles will join up to fight the west.

If we blame all muslims and make all muslims our enemy, then that is what they will become.

I'm an athiest who has no respect for any religious beleifs. But we should emphasise and embrace the moderates,unless we want more and more muslims (or any extreme group from other irrational belief systems) from gaining support.

The little popularity that Bush and Bin Laden have is based on the same thing, the hatred of a dispicable enemy.

samb

The Corinthian wrote:

Enough. There’s arguing moderation and then there’s being an apologist.

We, in the West, have the artistic freedom to portray anally raping a child on the stage or film - it’s been done repeatedly. Sometimes people get upset too at these things - but we don’t feel justified on masse to carry out acts of violence over them. So your analogy falls flat on its face.

The recent Islamic fashion for taking offence at any kind of criticism, while similarly being able to do so towards other faiths (typically Judaism) and Western secularism without apparently affording the same sense of reciprocation has gotten completely out of hand.

Ever since the cartoons debacle, this vocal and violent minority that, frankly, in many cases chooses not to integrate in our society even when they live along side us, has increasingly attempted censored us. Enough is enough.

Multiculturalism is about an exchange of values and cultures, enriching both - it is not about the colonisation of the host culture by another, which is unwilling to compromise on anything. That type of ‘multiculturalism’ will result only in the gettoization and inevitable radicalism we see today in the UK and France.

No doubt that will be all our fault too as far as you’re concerned :rolleyes:

Is this a puerile attempt to debase those complaining? If so I can point out that I’ve been to quite a few operas and recitals of works by Mozart, but don’t let that stop you employing such tactics.

Welll said. But how do we prevent Gettoisation etc?? Some of the language used here to describe muslims would surely contribute to this gettoisation.

Sesshoumaru

samb wrote:

I agree with you entirely that we should not compromise with regard western free speech and values. But I disagree with the above statement strongly. What Bin Laden and the extremists want is a war, the popularity of there cause is growing because of the actions of Bush and Blair. If you go and kill a few hundred extremists and civilians the all their brothers, cousins, and uncles will join up to fight the west.

If we blame all muslims and make all muslims our enemy, then that is what they will become.

I'm an athiest who has no respect for any religious beleifs. But we should emphasise and embrace the moderates,unless we want more and more muslims (or any extreme group from other irrational belief systems) from gaining support.

The little popularity that Bush and Bin Laden have is based on the same thing, the hatred of a dispicable enemy.

I don't recall the Allies wringing their hands before attacking Nazi Germany because it might cause more people to join the Nazis. If they won't leave us alone, then it is better to keep invading their countries until they are subdued.

pete

Sesshoumaru wrote:

If they won't leave us alone, then it is better to keep invading their countries until they are subdued.

isn't that pretty much what the little fella with the funny moustache said about Poland?

Dave!

Did he?

RedPlanet

Doesn't anybody remember the film The Last Temptation of Christ.
It was banned in several (Christian) countries and Blockbuster (largest movie rental chain in USA) won't stock it*.
*However it is available from them online

pete

DaveMcG wrote:

Did he?

Yep!

mike65

Does'nt Godwins Law kick in by statute about now?

Mike.

tallus

Slightly off topic, but what's Godwins Law?

pete

tallus wrote:

Slightly off topic, but what's Godwins Law?

it's something that doesn't apply when the observation is actually applicable

anyway i didn't say beetlejuice

tallus

ok ta that's todays lesson for me.

Belle Ende

samb wrote:

we should emphasise and embrace the moderates

What is 'moderate' about mainstream Islam's grave exhortations with regard to homosexuals, faith critics/"blasphemers", apostates, non-P.O.T.B. infidels?
NOTHING, that's what.

'Moderate Islam'... an oxymoron if ever there was one.

pete

tallus wrote:

ok ta that's todays lesson for me.

i jest

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

pete

Belle Ende wrote:

What is 'moderate' about mainstream Islam's grave exhortations with regard to homosexuals, faith critics/"blasphemers", apostates, non-P.O.T.B. infidels?
NOTHING, that's what.

'Moderate Islam'... an oxymoron if ever there was one.

in fairness you could say pretty much the same thing about that particularly odd US brand of born again christians

i just wish all the god botherers would go away. the world would be a much simpler place.

tallus

pete wrote:

in fairness you could say pretty much the same thing about that particularly odd US brand of born again christians

i just wish all the god botherers would go away. the world would be a much simpler place.

I totally agree with that statement.

is_that_so

Prosperous Dave wrote:

I lived in the middle east and on three occasions, I was preached to by imams about the virtues of their religions and asked if I'd consider proclaiming Allah as the one true God and Mohammed as his prophet. When I politely refused, the preaching became a sermon, which then became a fire and brimstone act and then the "non-believers will be put to the sword" routine. And this from an imam, one who is supposed to spreading that Islam is "a message of peace and love for mankind" - or else!!!

I have had my own run ins with Mormons, Jehovahs and in their day the Legion of Mary. I am completely doomed. These kind of people can say nothing else - nursing their own logic and view of the world.
But back on topic I see two issues.

Yes there is always a freedom of expression thing at work here, but as a venue owner you can make a choice for art or your box office. Long after the offending peice has passed on you still have to cater for the patrons.

I have one question on it , is the damn thing actually any good ? Having been offended over the years on numerous occasions by third rate "art" including the tosh that is the Satanic Verses you are reminded that some decisions need to be made on what is being presented.

But we live in the world of the BIG BAD WEB and we may not always like what gets out there.


"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy. "

Hamlet Act I Scene V

Belle Ende

Criticism of certain religions like Islam, religious beliefs and practices, and the religious still carries powerful taboos with it. The climate of 'not the done thing' means the critic of religion (particularly of ones not mainly associated with their homeland) is dumbly labelled the 'evil persecutor of ordinary decent believers' and the spaghetti monster faithful are the 'brave put-upon underdogs' (even if their book advocates all manner of injustices to others - not that the 'labellers' know or care to know anything about those grim specifics).

pete wrote:

in fairness you could say pretty much the same thing about that particularly odd US brand of born again christians

Partially. I'm a fan of neither.

However, this tu quoque defence that "the US Christian fundies are mad and dangerous too!" does NOTHING to deflect from the awful mainstream hostile bigoted beliefs within Islam. Such an argument doesn't make Islam any better, but does seem to make some westerners (who are unfamiliar with repugnant central edicts within Islam) feel better to say "OMG! Loook at da mental US fundy Christianz! Dey r just as bad!1", lest those same westerners be called 'muslim haterz' or 'victimisers of a minority'.

It's much easier to blindly swallow the PC line that Islam is the 'religion of peace', than to face the genuinely sobering prospect that over a billion Muslims across the Earth subscribe to a set of beliefs that are distinctly intolerant of numerous groupings.

toomevara

pete wrote:

i just wish all the god botherers would go away. the world would be a much simpler place.

Bravo! Here endeth the lesson. Alternately, might I suggest a moon/mars colony populated exclusively by secular, non god- botherer types where the Bible, Qu'ran and all the rest of 'em are stocked firmly and forever in the 'fiction/fairytale/fantasy' section.......????

Frederico

Deleted User wrote:

What's this 'we' business? I certainly don't see the German acting community, or the Danish cartoon drawing fraternity, playing God in the Middle East or interefering with the oil markets.

Either way, they should have ran the play unless and until they were threatened. Hard to blame the muslim community when they did absolutely nothing, it was the show's own producers that pulled it. They sure got a nice amount of publicity now anyway.

We, as in the west.. the coalition of the willing.. some guy was ranting and spluttering on about muslims, which I am sure he wasn't doing before 911.. before every tiny muslim issue was blown up in the press.. etc

Frederico

Prosperous Dave wrote:

Its not the democratised secular west that gets all hot and heavy when their religion/belief/superstition (take your pick) is questioned.

When's the last time you saw westerners marching down a street burning an effigy of the Ayatollah and calling for death to the Islamists while firing AK47's into the air?

Why bother even attempting reconciliation between Christianity and the Islamists. They bloody well hate the western world, I know because I lived in Abu Dhabi for a while when I was working in the Middle East. The Islamic states in the middle east are the most intolerant places I ever had the misfortune to spend any time in. You have no right to voice any sort of opinion that may offend the locals especially when it comes to freedom of expression, women's rights and religion. There are no such restrictions on Muslims marching down streets in the western world spouting their hatred for the western world.

As for making war on the Islamists, I believe it was they who crashed planes into the twin towers, caused the London and Madrid bombings, tried to blow up ten planes flying across the Atlantic (foiled by good security) and have turned the simple act of flying into a nightmare.

I won't generalise as there must be sane people out there who would describe themselves as Muslims but my experience of Islamists is that they are at best horrendously intolerant of anything that they don't agree with and at worst - well I've already stated what they are capable of above.

Yeah my friend went to the far east and developed the same hate you have.

Frederico

Prosperous Dave wrote:

And frankly you don't know me or you would understand that your statement couldn't be farther from the truth.

I hold no religious beliefs whatsover, I honestly cannot grasp how an adult human being can believe in fantasy tales of dying and rebirth into heaven surrounded by angels/virgins etc. However, I do believe that we all have a right to live our lives as we see fit so long as we don't harm anyone else. Therein lies my argument - the Islamists want to convert the world to their faith and those unbelievers who choose not to convert will be put to the sword. This is not a line from some 15th century king but from the mouth of an imam in Abu Dhabi during a conversation I had with him in 1993. They will not accept people like me who choose not to subscribe to a belief in a deity.

Similarly, I believe that all of the terrorist groups mentioned above are scum of the highest order who will kill and maim any who get in their way. I've taken the Shinners to task about the murder of Garda McCabe when they came canvassing on my doorstep. This is something I could do in this democracy of ours.

So I'm not closed minded my friend, just speaking as someone who's worked in the middle east and had to bite his tongue on numerous occasions or else I'd end up being picked up by the religious police for speaking my mind, which the Islamists won't allow if it goes against their beliefs

I firmly believe the Christians in the US administration are far far worse than any muslim terrorists, they certainly kill alot more people, cept they do it with a smile and a guise, and the sick thing is, we don't think they do it, or its dressed up.. not hard considering how indoctrinated we are by all our media and films..

How many muslim films are there of heroic muslim action heros mowing down waves and waves of evil white people??.. doesn't even cross most people's minds that that might you know have a slightly bad effect on some people.. namely muslims..

Belle Ende

Frederico wrote:

not hard considering how indoctrinated we are by all our media and films..

Speak for yourself.

Frederico wrote:

doesn't even cross most people's minds that that might you know have a slightly bad effect on some people.. namely muslims..

Transgressions between Muslims and non-Muslims didn't start five years ago. The seventh century sounds about right, though. Mohammad and his sword-wielding bandit followers have a lot to answer for.

crybaby

publicity stunt, how many people had even heard about this show before it was suddenly cancelled?

Sesshoumaru

toomevara wrote:

Bravo! Here endeth the lesson. Alternately, might I suggest a moon/mars colony populated exclusively by secular, non god- botherer types where the Bible, Qu'ran and all the rest of 'em are stocked firmly and forever in the 'fiction/fairytale/fantasy' section.......????

I love this idea! Where can I get my ticket to the Mars colony?