Looking for a programmer..

cormie

Hi,
I'm looking for a programmer for a web and windows (and other OS) based software application. I don't know the first thing about programming so please reply here with any previous experience and your payment expectations so others can voice their opinions of your work because my opinion wouldn't be of any value. The program to me, sounds quite simple and there are programs out there in open source applications that do pretty much the same thing so maybe it would be ok to copy certain aspects of them?

Any feedback would be appreciated:)

Adam

Whats the program?? Did you mean to leave that out?

cormie

Yep, leaving it out for now.

amen

so no indication of the program, what its meant do, the os, target platform, specification etc yet you want people to post their payment expectation and have a peer review by other programmers who don't know them.
are you looking for the cheapest or the best (sounds like the cheapest)
more info please

Mutant_Fruit

Well, considering the lack of information, how could anyone possibly give a payment expectation?

I'd say anywere in the region between €100 and €10,000 would be a safe bet As for past experience, i've written a cross platform Bittorrent library library (still under development but fully functional) a few small - medium sized GUI's and a DC++ file cataloger (which consisted of 2 GUI's, a P2P app and SQLite).

cormie

Sorry, I've never requested such a thing before. Here's a summary of what I want:

I'm looking to get a program made that will be able to cast a live stream over the internet both to a public and to a private audience. What it will be streaming is a section of the desktop (size is chosen by broadcaster) and also the option for the broadcaster to commentate on what is being broadcasted, mainly from a microphone I'm thinking.

Users will just have to download the applet and they will then be able to broadcast their desktop to either a private, password entry audience, or to a live stream via a website. Broadcasters and viewers should also be able to chat vis instant messaging. Viewers should be able to view the broadcast on a webpage and broadcasters should be able to connect to this particular webpage with their broadcast to reach the audience of this particular page.

I wouldn't be surprised if such a program exists already but I can't seem to find one online. If anyone knows of an existing program, please let me know. I know there are streaming programs about which could may be used to aid the development of this.

If you think you are capable of making this application, please reply with a cost estimate, some references to previous projects you have worked on or created and a time estimate for making the above project.

I look forward to any feedback.

Kernel32

www.webex.com is pretty much what you are talking about. There are many other clones of this as well.

cormie

Thanks for the link. That looks a bit too heavy and business orientated for what I'm looking for though. One of the main problems though, is I'd like to be able to offer the program, not send people to another site where they have to pay to use it. Would programming something like in the first post be a simple enough job? When you talk about webex clones, do you know of any in particular?:)

Mutant_Fruit

Thats a *lot* of work... a *lot*. You'd be talking at least 6-8 weeks of work for a fully tested solution. And that's if there are freely availably open source video encoders/decoders and audio encoders/decoders which you can splice into the program. On top of that you'd either have to roll your own IM chat or include another OS library (which may or may not exist) which takes time. Then you need a cross-browser applet which can also display you're video (of which i'd have no experience with at all).

And of course whatever libraries you end up finding and including must be cross platform aswell

Depending on availability of OS libraries with licenses that are compatible to your needs, you're talking anywhere from €1500 - €6000 i'd say.

cormie

Thanks for the input.

€1,500 - €6,000 would hardly be a good wage for a programmer to spend 6-8 months on something though When you say 6-8 months, do you mean a 40 hour week for each of the weeks in these months?

I found a site called www.rentacoder.com, seems pretty good, I put up the request so I just have to wait and see what comes in. It recommended I put a deadline on the project, I said 55 days. I wonder what responses I'll get:)

Mutant_Fruit

Whoops, i meant 6-8 weeks. That's assuming that you can get an OS audio and video encoder with a license that's compatible to your needs. while an IM chat library would be handy, a roll-your-own could be done fast enough. I'm not quite sure what is available out there, it might be case of grabbing a few OS libraries and just needing to write a GUI, in which case the project might take a week or two. But i did look at this kind of thing before and decided that it was far to large an effort.

pH

Not particularly easy :

The screen scraping/audio cap is almost certainly going to have to be done in native code. This will probably limit the source machines to windows (this may not be a problem) You may be able to do it in .net if you were so inclined, but it's going to be a downloaded app.

There is no multicast turned on anywhere on the net. This means that each person viewing needs their own tcp/ip stream of exactly the same content. This doesn't scale well, especially if people(senders) are on asymmetric connections like ADSL. You may well need a server on the net itself, which takes a single stream from a sender and broadcasts it to all the listeners.

For the listening application to be non downloadable (browser based) it's going to need to be an applet (java - completely different code to the sender) or an OCX or Shockwave . The choice you make dramatically influences the skills the developer needs and the technical capabilities/limitations.

Realtime encoding of video is not easy also Streaming needs to be able to drop frames if the client lags behind. Choosing the correct encoding is going to be hard and from then on it's a tradeoff between quality and bandwidth.

One possible option, if you used a video-conferencing application like Skype-video and had a 'virtual' webcam, a piece of software that showed up to skype as a webcam, but in effect broadcast a section of the desktop, would that work?

[EDITED TO ADD]
Something like this :
http://www.softpedia.com/get/Internet/WebCam/WebcamMax-Full.shtml

daymobrew

Would VNC Free Edition help? It does have a webserver (Java) interface to the broadcasting desktop (though no sound). It would be one part of the solution, with IM provided by Yahoo/AIM/MSN (why reinvent the wheel).
In our office we've had conf calls for audio with VNC providing the visuals.
I would search Download.com for existing apps that could be provided as a group to get most of what you want.

cormie wrote:

Users will just have to download the applet and they will then be able to broadcast their desktop to either a private, password entry audience, or to a live stream via a website

Why will the viewers of the broadcast need to be able to broadcast their desktop? (BTW, VNC server will allow this - that's how the original broadcaster will be transmitting).

cormie

Thanks for the above replies everyone, very useful.

6-8 weeks is a lot shorter than I expected really. I wasn't surprised when you said 6-8 months, but 6-8 weeks is great:)

When I said: "Users will just have to download the applet and they will then be able to broadcast their desktop to either a private, password entry audience, or to a live stream via a website" I actually meant to change users to broadcasters Only the broadcasters will be broadcasting, the viewers wont be:cool:

The two programs mentioned above; webcam max and vnc seem to be what I'm looking for, but not exactly what I'm after. Would it be possible to use these two programs to aid the development of the final product that I'm after? I like the idea of doing broadcasting through AIM/MSN etc but I'd still like to be able to have it broadcast off a webpage too. When you mention a dedicated server, is this costly?

I'd imagine there are video and audio and instant message applets available in open source? Could these be pieced together to form one program? I'd also like the audio to broadcast what the actual soundcard is transmitting to the broadcaster, to the viewers too.

Just looking at the VNC features, I see "scaling". This would also be a desired option for the program I want too.

I'd prefer to keep everything in the one program rather than requiring users to download an open multiple programs to get the broadcast. I'd like The Instant Messenger program compatibility to be more of a very nice add on then the way it has to be done.

This is sounding more hopeful than I first thought anyway:)

pH

There are a number of apps that partially get you there:

VNC/PC anywhere/Remote Desktoop were primarily designed to allow users remote control a PC. They can be used in view mode just to watch a desktop but this isn't their primary purpose. They give you the functionality of detecting changes in a desktop/compressing and transmitting, but they have severe security implications if not installed correctly. I'm not sure is viewing just a portion of the desktop is available in them, it may be.

The next problem is publish/subscriber functionality. How are people located, how do you publish your stream, how do others find you, who can view your stream - all these questions that things like skype/aim/msm can contribute to.

Firewalls cause another huge problem, 2 firewalled users cannot communicate directly, and many peer to peer apps implement quite technical workarounds.

On another note I've never used webcammax, I found in in 30 secs using google, there probably are more apps like it.

amen

before you go spending your money are you sure that there is a market for your product?

ressem

Streaming to a server and rebroadcasting to multiple listeners is a whole other ballgame. How many people need to be able to listen and stream to the same server? Will you need to apply limits and priorities on each stream?
Are you looking to purchase servers and locate them within a suitable ISP or just look for an ISP that supports streaming media hosting already.

A microsoft centric approach would be to use Microsoft's windows media encoder SDK to grab the screen section and audio. It would be streamed to a server running windows 2003 server and built in windows media services. This can be used to rebroadcast.

If your rentacoder goes with this method, it should be done a lot faster, but you need to investigate the ongoing costs.

I've only done this sort of thing as a toy, so am not aware of the CAL costs for a real service.
Edit:

Licensing for Windows Media Services is covered by the Windows Server 2003 end-user license agreement (EULA). A separate client access license (CAL) is not required for Windows Media Services. If you are using Windows Media Services to deliver unicast or multicast streams from a server running Windows Server 2003, you are only required to license the server product.

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/serve/prodinfo.aspx
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/forpros/encoder/default.mspx

broadcasting a live stream to a windows media server.
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/wmencode/htm/broadcastingalivestreamusingthepredefineduicsh.asp

Turning an area of the screen into a video source
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/wmencode/htm/workingwithsourcesandsourcegroups.asp

stevenmu

Have you looked into Microsoft NetMeeting (if it's still around). Should handle everything you want, and may already be installed on a lot of machines.

professore

cormie wrote:

Thanks for the above replies everyone, very useful.

6-8 weeks is a lot shorter than I expected really. I wasn't surprised when you said 6-8 months, but 6-8 weeks is great:)

When I said: "Users will just have to download the applet and they will then be able to broadcast their desktop to either a private, password entry audience, or to a live stream via a website" I actually meant to change users to broadcasters Only the broadcasters will be broadcasting, the viewers wont be:cool:

The two programs mentioned above; webcam max and vnc seem to be what I'm looking for, but not exactly what I'm after. Would it be possible to use these two programs to aid the development of the final product that I'm after? I like the idea of doing broadcasting through AIM/MSN etc but I'd still like to be able to have it broadcast off a webpage too. When you mention a dedicated server, is this costly?

I'd imagine there are video and audio and instant message applets available in open source? Could these be pieced together to form one program? I'd also like the audio to broadcast what the actual soundcard is transmitting to the broadcaster, to the viewers too.

Just looking at the VNC features, I see "scaling". This would also be a desired option for the program I want too.

I'd prefer to keep everything in the one program rather than requiring users to download an open multiple programs to get the broadcast. I'd like The Instant Messenger program compatibility to be more of a very nice add on then the way it has to be done.

This is sounding more hopeful than I first thought anyway:)

Speaking as someone who has 12 years programming experience with the last 5 of those working for myself, so if I get timescales wrong I don't eat, I would say 6-8 weeks is wildly optimistic for this, unless you can use lots of existing components & libraries that do exactly what you want (which is almost never the case). As a wild guess (since I only have a brief outline) I would say 3 months (60 days) minimum for an experienced programmer in this area. You need documentation, bugfixing and testing and more bugfixing.

Another thing is you need a detailed spec - this will take at least 1 - 2 days to complete - only then can you give an estimate. You wouldn't build a house with no plans now would you - and a house is easy compared to developing new software.

As with all software, if you have customers queueing up for this with lots of money then go for it - otherwise it's a money pit.

As for open source - in a lot of cases (i.e. GPL license) you HAVE to give away the code to others - thus making the idea very easy to copy.

Good Luck!

BTW check these guys out - they may be able to help you www.sharedvisions.ie

lphchild

this crowd are good: http://www.interwise.com Can be rebranded etc. have worked with them previously

ressem

Netmeeting is included in XP, just not displayed. Type "conf" into the run dialog.
Not meant to be in vista though.

Draupnir

6-8 weeks development for one person? Fully tested in that time too?

Mutant Fruit, you are having a laugh, a serious laugh.

Minimum 60 days development to get this working if its one developer on his own in my opinion. Testing could be constant because these types of applications are not scalable at all usually.

secret_squirrel

How do you expect to recoup the 5 figure sum to do this? If its under 10,000 I would fall off my chair tbh?

What the unique selling point your program/service is going to have above other similar solutions like webex?

How is it going to handle firewalls and all the rest of the guff that gets in the way of a connection?

How is it going to scale?

How much have you budgeted for the hardware to run it on?

If you think you can replicate something as professional as even the poorest OSS product that does something similar you are talking 10's of thousands.

Things to consider :

1. Dont be naive about how much it will cost you to develop.
2. Whose going to write the functional spec (eg how you want it to work?)
3. Whose going to write the technical design (how its to be coded and structured).

Without out 2 and 3 put together by a competent business analyst or similar you are going to be screwed by a 'rentacoder' either because they are out for a good pile of cash, or simply because you cant communicate your requirements clearly enough for them*

*Most IT projects go bad because of this.

And you will be doing all this just to replicate 95% of the functionality that is already out there in commerical and OSS products.

Why fgs? why??

Forgive my harshness but I dont think you have a clue what you're getting into - and I dont mean that in a bad way.

Mutant_Fruit

Draupnir wrote:

6-8 weeks development for one person? Fully tested in that time too?

Mutant Fruit, you are having a laugh, a serious laugh.

Minimum 60 days development to get this working if its one developer on his own in my opinion. Testing could be constant because these types of applications are not scalable at all usually.

minimum of 6-8 weeks of development assuming you already have a preexisting video and audio capturing/encoding layer which requires little to no modification and has a compatible license (odds of that are slim). I didn't factor in any time for the browser based video display thingy as i have no experience whatsoever with that kind of thing. It's quite possible there is an OS applet that you can plug straight in, then again, maybe not. Something like VideoEgg might be insertable with little to no effort (but probably incurs licensing fees, but they do seem to offer that service).

If you need to roll your own video solution and audio solution, you'll need to treble the time (if not more). Especially if you want a cross-platform solution.

cormie

Thanks for the above replies. Some points to be considered alright.

Would something like this be hard to replicate and build around the way I want it?:

http://www.adobe.com/products/breeze/

Smoggy

There appears to be an SDK , which is always a good start

"Adobe Acrobat Connect Collaboration Builder SDK
To develop applications for use with Acrobat Connect Professional, you must install the Collaboration Builder MXP plugin for Flash MX 2004 or Flash 8. The Collaboration Builder SDK system requirements are the same as the requirements for Flash MX 2004 or Flash 8. Collaboration Builder applications should be compiled for Flash Player 7 and ActionScript 2.0."

"Customize and extend the functionality of personal meeting rooms with the Collaboration Builder Software Development Kit (SDK) "

secret_squirrel

Have you budgeted for these prices?

https://service.breezecentral.com/cfusion/bots/purchase/index.cfm

On that subject what kind of budget do you have to spend?

We talking bank loan/savings or serious VC money?

You need to make sure your ideas and ambitions are workable within the resources you have to hand.

{edit} If your budget is very limited then you have to pare the functionality you are looking for down to the very basics that will still provide a workable product or service. You can always add functionality later when your idea starts making you money. (assuming making you money is part of the aims)

cormie

Yea them prices for Adobe are crazy alright. But my post above was not asking to use adobe as the product, but to basically copy it and tweak it to the way I want so I can distribute it myself

secret_squirrel

cormie wrote:

Yea them prices for Adobe are crazy alright. But my post above was not asking to use adobe as the product, but to basically copy it and tweak it to the way I want so I can distribute it myself

But do you not get it?

Look at the prices Webex and Abobe charge.

At the very least they believe they are charging what the market will bear, plus no doubt trying to generate a significant revenue stream to keep improving their product.

Does that not tell you that what you're looking for is going to be incredibly difficult (ie expensive) to do well?

Im sorry to be harsh but unless you can find an OSS project that already does 99.9% of what you want it to do - you are living in a dream world with regards to thinking a single programmer can replicate something like that.

Forgive my bluntness but Im trying to stop you píssing money up the wall on this idea. IMO its just not practical.

cormie

I plan to take a different approach with my product though. That is all I can say.

I was wondering, with the likes of breeze by adobe, and the other programs to go by, can codes be replicated to be worked into my own product to make the build easier, quicker and cheaper or would the whole thing have to be worked from scratch and only open source products be available to use? I have been quoted $430 for the job on rentacoder, which seems very cheap I know. What is the average pay in Pakistan per month does anyone know? With an international user base like rent a coder I could be getting cheaper quotes as the cost of living in other places wont be as high, meaning they can give a cheaper quote. $430 does sound a bit dodgey though.:o

Mutant_Fruit

I was wondering, with the likes of breeze by adobe, and the other programs to go by, can codes be replicated to be worked into my own product to make the build easier, quicker and cheaper or would the whole thing have to be worked from scratch and only open source products be available to use?

Thats pretty much it, except a little more complicated. If you want to make money from your application your choice from open souce components is limited to ones with a license that allows you to do that. If you use a GPL'ed component, you must release your sourcecode (which makes it hard to make people pay for your product since they could just compile it themselves :P)

Basically, you have to be very careful that you have full knowledge of where all the code comes from when you are getting someone to write your application. If someone starts ripping parts from VNC, then you will (sooner or later) end up in a situation where you either release your source code or get sued.

To be perfectly honest, anyone who quotes less than €1000 for the job is dodgy. 6-8 weeks would be (what i consider) the bare minimum to get this job anywhere near complete. I don't believe there are sufficient open source componants available to let you finish in that timeframe either.

EDIT: Where is your rent-a-coder listing?