Looking for a programmer..

HelterSkelter

cormie wrote:

...The program to me, sounds quite simple...

Ha ha ha, that's what the difficult customers always say where I work! Avoid this man like the plague!!

pH

On the reuse, yes there's plenty of code available to get you going, but a lot of it is under a GPL style license. If you want to use it, you must make your new code available as well. However reusing GPL'd code at a binary level is normally acceptable, and there is plenty of BSD style 'free to do anything with' code out there also.

Yes there are cheap coders available in eastern Europe and India/Pakistan among others. Take any quote with a pinch of salt until you have produced a reasonably detailed functional spec for your software. This should describe (in detail) what the software does (not how it does it).

As soon as you get into a rentacoder situation you're in an adversarial relationship from day 1 (if it's a fixed price). His only concern is maximising his profit. Your money is in escrow, and all he has to do is do enough to convince the escrow judge that he's fulfilled your spec - you don't get final acceptance. He (AND HE IS RIGHT TO DO SO) will take the narrowest implementation of your functional spec that he possibly can. Say he produces something that requires 256Kb to transmit - unless you have a specific point in your spec then that's acceptable. And that is only one tiny example of exactly what needs to be tied down.

Also you've got to think of maintenance and changes. Software always evolves - when it's written and people are using it you get new ideas, see problems and get change requests from users.

You need to understand if you're entering into a long-term relationship with the coder, if not what tools/toolkits he used, how he commented, tested and documented all become hugely important if you will want to hand the codebase to other people for ongoing changes.

I've worked on big projects that outsource large chunks of coding to big Indian players and communication of requirements was always a huge problem.

This needs so much more work before you could accept a bid
http://www.rentacoder.com/RentACoder/misc/BidRequests/ShowBidRequest.asp?lngBidRequestId=542569

secret_squirrel

Unless either the product has some sort of free Licensing (like some but not all Open Source software), or has an SDK (software development kit) or API kit) or has a licensing scheme for uses in other products, you cant use somebody elses code.

So for example you cant cut chunks out of breeze and use unless Adobe say you can.

If you are determined to do this (I think you are mad btw) do the following:

Talk to someone trustworth and knowledgable (not your mates unless they know the software area) about your idea, ask them to critique it. Take their comments on board.

I can understand you are protective of your idea but you will have to let go at some point.

Write a business plan setting out objectives, costs and revenues.

Write a high level specification of what you want your program to do.

Line up 3 rentacoder quotes based on the Spec. (Make them sign Non disclosure agreements if you can)

Ask for examples of previous work (and preferably the source code). Possibly get them peer reviewed by a programmer you know.

Agree a Contract with Payments based on milestones - eg the delivery of certain functionality - not on days worked.

Make arrangements for scope creep - which is one of the banes of every software project.


EDIT : spent so long typing this that Fruit and pH beat me to it. I agree with all their points as well.

Mutant_Fruit

This program should create a "live" video stream of a section of the desktop with audio that can be viewed by numerous users over the internet via a web page.

That's nowhere near detailed enough. You'd need to be able to control the bitrate of the stream. You need security/access control so you can limit who sees what stream. You need it to be cross platform (i believe), which HUGELY affects what you can use.

Cancel that listing and write up a much more detailed overview of *everything* you need to be done. Then post it here (or private PM to someone) and let them review it and help your clarify the document. You need to literally spell out each and every function you want your program to be able to do.

It'd be relatively trivial to complete a program that does what you stated in the rentacoder listing. Of course, the trivial program would be windows only and would work by emulating the "printscreen" key, reading the screenshot from the clipboard and then sending that image 30 times per second to a website. That'll probably need > 512kbps upload though. Then i could use ajax to get a webpage to update itself with each new image. E.T.A: 2 weeks including full documentation, commenting and testing. Does it do what you want, no. But does it fulfill your requirements, yes.

secret_squirrel

What he said ^^^^^^^

cormie

Some great advice everyone, thanks a mill.

I have what I think is a great idea and has the potential to become very popular in the online world. I've been an internet user for 10 years and I do believe based on what has worked and what hasn't worked, that this will work. I know exactly how I want it to work and what users can and can not do.

The problem is, I have no programming knowledge at all and I don't know about different license complications or any of that. Another problem is I don't have the money to make a big investment.

So what can I do? What do I need to do from here?

This is what I would think:

Step 1: Write a detailed description of what the program will actually do, the ins and outs, exactly how I want it to work, diagrams, drawings, sketches, everything that I can possibly do with my knowledge as an internet user.

now what steps I should take after that I don't really know. I'll need a programmer to tell me what it will involve, how much it will cost, how long it will take. I need funding. I need my idea safe and secure so it will not be robbed.

What order I should do the above in, I don't really know. Once all of that is done, I'll need a programmer I can trust to build it, then it will be complete and will need to be marketted.

I will need to talk to people who will not steal my idea, I will need to avoid people who will.

originally posted by HelterSkelter
Ha ha ha, that's what the difficult customers always say where I work! Avoid this man like the plague!!

If your business specialises in a certain field, especially something like programming, your client base will, in most cases be people who don't know the first thing about programming. The client should always have some kind of opinion on the matter, if it's wrong, it's up to you to let them know. I came here looking for advice. I haven't disputed any of the advice given as I know nothing about it myself. I had a first opinion which has changed thanks to the helpful replies of those I'd be far more likely to start a business relationship with than somebody who wants to avoid me like the plague.

pH

You have a number of options for moving forward:

• Raise capital, and buy a coder. Convince people (with money) you've got a good idea, get them to invest some money and use this to pay a coder or company to build your idea. Bounce the idea off business people you trust, promise them a nice return and maybe some SSIA money will come your way.
  
• Try to do a deferred payment to the coder, if the job costs X, pay them 1/2X with the promise that if it takes off then there'll be a huge bonus (5X?). This lets you into the market at a reduced cost, and incentives the developer to be on your side. His/her success is tied to your success.
  
• Enter a partnership (in company terms) with someone with the technical skills to build it.

Just to add, it's very easy to be cynical of those with brilliant ideas (but don't have the skills or the cash to implement them).

HelterSkelter's comment reflects a very typical experience a lot of software people have on projects, people (users) who admit they know nothing about software development but still have strong opinions on how difficult the job is and how long it should take.

cormie

More good ideas thanks.

One question I haven't asked yet...

What is the most this could cost? To get a program that works great, exactly the way I want it, that I will own all the rights to and wont have to share the source with anyone?

secret_squirrel

How long is a piece of string?

In most cases its not a case of how much it costs, but when to stop money being thrown at it. Its perfectly possible for even a minor project to grow to a scale where it can swallow 10's of thousands without blinking.

As the project principle one of your duties would be to decide the point at which the plug should be pulled if it all goes wrong.

Thats what worries me most about a site like Rentacoder. Get an unethical programmer living on the other side of the world (or atleast in an unreachable location) and they could easily milk more and more cash from an inexperienced project principle. - Of course there are plenty of Major IT consultancies (we all know who they are) that will quite happily milk the cash cow until it is dried up and dead.

The HSE systems and other Government computer projects would be good examples of bottomless money pits.

TempestSabre

What you have here is a business idea. Outsource the software development, its not a one man job, and you nothing about it. You need to look into what it take to get a product to market and start up a business. If the business plan makes financial sense, and a bank manager or similar agrees with you, then its worth pursuing.

What you are suggesting sounds like the usual elearning, desktop mentoring, remote working, tele conferencing platforms that have been tried many times and that really haven't taken off. Over the years I've been in a few companies that have tried to do something along those lines and I've never seen it be a major success, but it consumes resources like you wouldn't believe. Still you might be bringing a new twist to it, who knows.

What I'd suggest is if you can get a business plan that makes sense, and where you've worked out the numbers. Only then get a proof of concept protoype built that you can take to the bank and raise the funds that you'd surely need.

cormie

"proof of concept prototype built"

How useful would tihs prototype have to be? It wont work the way I want it to until the thing is fully built.

I believe my idea will have a good enough edge to make this a great success if done properly.



Would anyone have a ballpoint figure of the max it could cost if it all went according to plan and I got a reliable coder, or coding company? Just taking into consideration of the time required to build the product and the average price for this time a coder is likely to charge?


Also, are there any coders here who would be interested in taking on this job? Any idea of a price figure or is it far too early to suggest?

TempestSabre

I have no idea, you're asking "How long is a piece of string?". An application might take a few hours and cost nothing, or take a year of two and cost hundreds of thousands or even millions. Who knows where your "idea" fits in that. You either need a company that specialises in building web streaming applications or just a talented student or graduate. I'd guess your looking at a couple of months, and 2-10k depending on who you get to do it. Ryan Air used a couple of students to get started on their website.

amen

Ryan Air used a couple of students to get started on their website

maybe to do their first static webpages but their online reservation system
Don't belive everying Michael O'Leary tells you.
The Ryan Air website is extremely good at what it does and costed millions with teams of programmers not just a few students.

TempestSabre

Thats why I said get started. Rome wasn't built in a day