Maths - what should kids know?

bigpat

Hello all,

New to these forums and not sure if I'm posting in the right place. Tried the "Maths" one, but it seems a bit advanced.

I grew up in Ireland but I've lived in the UK for years and now have a ten year old son and a nine year old daughter. I know they're both very smart kids, but I'm beginning to worry about whether the educational system over here is up to scratch. I seem to remember that I knew more at their age (but maybe I'm mistaken, maybe I was a bit older)

What are your nine and ten year olds doing at school?
Do they know all their times tables by now and do they teach division tables as well? (I learned 'em!)
Are they doing sums with 4 or more digits?
Are they doing fractions and or percentages?

I have a feeling my two should have the basics of this by now but they seem to spend their maths lessons doing simple sums about money and then colouring in the pictures of the coins!

Am I right to worry, or do they have loads of time yet? Basically I need something to benchmark them against.

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Pat.

Ayla

I grew up in the States so I won't be able to answer your questions directly, but I can tell you what I knew by the time I was 10ish.

By the time I was 10 I was doing long division, I knew all of my multiplication tables (up to 12x12) by heart and I was adding/subtracting large sums. I actually remember doing all of this on our teacher's chalkboard so I know exactly how old I was doing this.

I also remember my parents making me sit down and write out the multiplication tables (pages of them!) so I'd learn them. They quizzed me often and if I got them wrong I'd have to go back and write them all again until I got them right.

I don't want this discussion to erode to a bashing of the Irish educational system, but from what I've experienced since moving here last year adults can't even do simple maths without a calculator. I find it quite sad and I'm going to make sure I teach my kids the way my folks taught me.

Ickle Magoo

In the UK kids are taught from the National Curriculum...if you are worried you could contact your local authority & ask for details about the national curriculum & what should be being taught...the other thing I would do is request a meeting with the school headteacher & ask her what the teaching plan is for your kids classes...

Alternatively you could teach them anything you think they are missing out on at home - that's what my folks did!

scrattletrap

I'll have to wait until he gets hope to confirm this but my nine year old has been doing his tables the last two years, he does complex addition and subtaction (with more that four numbers) long multiplication and division, fractions and percentages.
He is way beyond money calculations, that is where my seven year old is, the whole how many coins do you need to make ? amount.

Nevyn

http://www.curriculumonline.ie/index.asp?locID=8&docID=-1

That link above is to the national primary school curriculum the maths section.
It has been revised over the last 7 years and is I know a hell of a lot different then when I was in school

I have an 8 year old in 3rd class and currently he is working his way through the subtraction and addtion time tables.
He has done basic fractions but not presentages.
He has not done sums with more then 3 digits but has started to do
solve for X problems and solve the bracket first equations.

Below is the list of tasks that a 3rd class child should have mastred in maths by the end of the year.
It is taken from here http://www.pcsp.ie/html/ma_intro.php

Welcome to the Primary Curriculum Support Programme (PCSP) website. The purpose of the PCSP is to mediate the Primary School Curriculum for teachers towards enabling them to implement it in their schools. This website aims to inform teachers, parents and management of the workings and structures of the Support Programme throughout the implementation period and beyond. Each curricular area contains useful downloadable resources. If you have any queries, or suggestions, please forward them to eolas@pcsp.ie.

Identify place value in whole numbers 0-999
Read, write & order 3-digit numbers
Round number to nearest 10/100
Identify place value to 1 decimal place
Operations
Add without renaming within 999
Add with renaming within 999
Subtract without renaming to 999
Subtract with renaming to 999
Recall addition facts
Solve + and – word problems
Record repeated addition
Apply 0 in multiplication
Recall multiplication facts within 100
Multiply 1-digit number by 0-10
Multiply 2-digit number by 0-10
Recall division facts within 100
Divide 1-digit number by 1-digit number with/out remainder
Divide 2-digit number by 1-digit number with/out remainder
Fractions
Identify fractions with denominators 2, 4, 8, 10
Identify equivalence of those fractions

All the other areas of the primary school for all classes are listed also.

Hope you find this helpful.
Thaed


P.S. don't forget the frist six weeks back at school tend to be brisky going over last years curriculum
to make sure all the children are up to speed after the summer holidays.

bigpat

Thank you all so much for the replies so far.

Ayla, Interesting to note that you don't think the Irish system is good enough. I'm worried about the British system and was planning to use the Irish system as the benchmark, as I think it stood me in good stead. But you've given me the idea to cast my net a bit wider. Thanks.

I'm fairly satisfied that my kids ARE being taught according to the UK national curriculum. It's just that I don't think that's as good as it should be. I fear it's letting them down. I HAVE started to check what they know and have printed off a multiplication grid for my nine-year-old, but so far this has just caused arguments. It's hard for her to accept extra maths activites at home as anything other than a punishment, even though I try to frame it as fun.

Thaedyal, fantastic: Those links are just what I was hoping for. I had searched www.gov.ie lst week but failed to find anything relevant.

I'm beginning to see my way forward now. Thanks once again to all of you.

Pat.

GAA widow

All you have to do is look at your child's Maths book to see what they're covering at their class level.

Long division has been held back until fourth class instead of third, as it has been found to be more age-appropriate at this class level.

Obviously if your child is extremely competent at Maths it is a parent's natural instinct to want to be proactive in developing their child's knowledge in the subject area.
I wouldn't advise teaching children Maths your own way as it may not be the way the teacher is teaching the concept at school and from experience I have found that it can end up confusing children.
However if your child is particularly gifted at Mathematics I suggest you contact the Centre for Talented Youth who run courses around the country on Saturdays and during the Summer as children I've referred to the centre have found the course and the coursework stimulating and interesting.

Hope this helps!

http://www.dcu.ie/ctyi/sitemap.htm

GAA widow

Ayla wrote:

I grew up in the States so I won't be able to answer your questions directly, but I can tell you what I knew by the time I was 10ish.

By the time I was 10 I was doing long division, I knew all of my multiplication tables (up to 12x12) by heart and I was adding/subtracting large sums. I actually remember doing all of this on our teacher's chalkboard so I know exactly how old I was doing this..

Yes, it is the same here, aside from the fact that tables now only go as far as x10 as children are taught the metric system here (because we are an E.U. member state) and not Imperial measures, and thus are not taught how to convert pounds and ounces etc. so I don't understand the point you are making?

Ayla wrote:

I don't want this discussion to erode to a bashing of the Irish educational system, but from what I've experienced since moving here last year adults can't even do simple maths without a calculator. I find it quite sad and I'm going to make sure I teach my kids the way my folks taught me.

MASSIVE generalisation!

I find your personal summation of the Irish educational system as "quite sad" a real pity.
I suggest you get involved in the Parents' Association in your children's school or (school related activities if there isn't one) so as you can appreciate and actually see and become involved in the good work that does go on in primary schools in this country, rather than jumping to conclusions and pointing the finger from afar!

Ayla

GAA widow wrote:

Yes, it is the same here, aside from the fact that tables now only go as far as x10 as children are taught the metric system here (because we are an E.U. member state) and not Imperial measures, and thus are not taught how to convert pounds and ounces etc. so I don't understand the point you are making?

I was simply saying what I was taught, and I can't possibly see why learning multiplication tables up to 12 is in any way related to using Imperial measures? Surely people need to know what 12x12 is here?

GAA widow wrote:

MASSIVE generalisation!

I find your personal summation of the Irish educational system as "quite sad" a real pity.
I suggest you get involved in the Parents' Association in your children's school or (school related activities if there isn't one) so as you can appreciate and actually see and become involved in the good work that does go on in primary schools in this country, rather than jumping to conclusions and pointing the finger from afar!

My experience comes from interacting with adults in the real world (ie: at tills, in office buildings, etc). If the adults can't do it now is it not a reflection on how they were taught in school? Also, my husband grew up in the Irish system, and had no more than 5 kids in his class throughout primary & secondary school (so the teaching was excellent and very personalized) and he says the same thing generally about the adults in the general public. So I'm not "pointing the finger from afar", I'm commenting on the experiences I have with adults on a daily level.

Trotter

Ayla wrote:

So I'm not "pointing the finger from afar", I'm commenting on the experiences I have with adults on a daily level.

I dont believe any of us who have not carried out proper scientific research can make generalisations like that about the adults in Ireland. In my 25 years on this planet, I havent even met enough of them to make such conclusions.

I agree that there are areas and social groups with literacy problems, but I feel that teachers cannot be just slapped for doing a bad job.

Maybe there are children that went to school with me that have literacy and basic computational problems too, yet I can read, write and do basic maths without a calculator.

As a teacher I can assure you, It'd be an ideal life if all children came to school inspired by their parents with a will to learn.

magnumlady

I grew up in the UK and I think that the education here is much better then over there.
I can't believe the maths that my son is bringing home (1st year secondary), I would never be able to do it.

dhidra

the new primary school curriculum in 1999 changed quite a lot of things in maths. it may seem easier, but in fact, what has happened is that thingsd like long division have been moved from 4th to 5th class so that the children have a better understanding of short division before moving on. the ephasis is on understanding rather than rote learning.
in 3rd class (age 8-9) children use numbers up to 999, begin multiplication and division (1 digit x 2 digit), explore the fractions 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 and 1/10, and also decimals to one place (0.6).
in 4th class they move on to number up to 9,999.
in 5th class, long division is taught.