Croker says no to UEFA

Blackjack

Pigman II wrote:

But that's exactly the point I am making. All-Ireland Championship games are occasion games. Shels v Deportivo was an occasion game too. Soccer in this country by it's nature and competition has very few (or none tbh) 'occasion' games like that. If soccer was getting 54 games of 25,000+ per year then their figure would be getting into GAA figures too so it's not a clear indicator of support/popularity.

By occasion games I mean ones where the general public suddenly realise they were actually life-long fans of a given club/county and then just as quickly forget as soon as the full-time whistle blows.

Does anyone have figures for national league GAA games btw?

I don't follow your argument. You asked for attendance figures, and these were given. These are now being disputed as "occasion games". The Championship in Gaelic football is actually an annual event, so it's a bit more than occasion games.

Is there not an FAI cup?. How many went to see Drogheda in the UEFA cup qualifier?.

Soccer is not getting the 25000 attendances at games, therein lies the difference. Seriously, if Soccer was more popular, don't you think that attendances at Eircom League games would be more than it is?.

I don't have figures for League attendances (I have searched) but then I've not seen any figures that will indicate a greater attendance of all Soccer games than the Gaelic Football championship yet either.

Pigman II

I don't mean 'occasion' as in 'it occasionally happens'. I mean occasion in that it draws people out of the woodwork who are more interested in the social aspect of the game (ie 'the occasion') than in the game itself. The game itself is just the cherry on top. Same thing happens at Ireland soccer and rugby internationals. If you added up the entire attendance at a w/e of soccer and rugby you wouldn't even get near the capacity of Lansdowne, so who are all these people at international games?

The national League (as I understand it) is like EL football in that it is something that it more or less goes under the media radar and is usually attended by people who have made an routine effort (both mentally and physically) to be there. That is why I would consider it a fairer comparison when it comes to judging popularity and would like to see those numbers for my own curiosity.

I'm using the Deportivo game to show that it is possible to get 25000+ people in this country to go to watch an EL team as long as there is a big buzz about the game. Therefore I feel the GAA all-ireland figures (just like that Deportivo figure) really confirms nothing. I'm a firm believer that nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd and nowhere is that truer than in Ireland. I'm sure the vast majority of people who went to that Deportivo game hadn't gone to an EL in the year previous and haven't gone to another one since but that if Bohemians v Real Madrid was in town next Wednesday they'd be the first in the queue to buy tickets..

I think it's great that GAA gets 1.9million per year but I just think it's not as simple as saying 'theres 1.9 million' so we're more popular sport by far.

Blackjack

Pigman II wrote:

I don't mean 'occasion' as in 'it occasionally happens'. I mean occasion in that it draws people out of the woodwork who are more interested in the social aspect of the game (ie 'the occasion') than in the game itself. The game itself is just the cherry on top. Same thing happens at Ireland soccer and rugby internationals. If you added up the entire attendance at a w/e of soccer and rugby you wouldn't even get near the capacity of Lansdowne, so who are all these people at international games?

The national League (as I understand it) is like EL football in that it is something that it more or less goes under the media radar and is usually attended by people who have made an routine effort (both mentally and physically) to be there. That is why I would consider it a fairer comparison when it comes to judging popularity and would like to see those numbers for my own curiosity.

I'm using the Deportivo game to show that it is possible to get 25000+ people in this country to go to watch an EL team as long as there is a big buzz about the game. Therefore I feel the GAA all-ireland figures (just like that Deportivo figure) really confirms nothing. I'm a firm believer that nothing attracts a crowd like a crowd and nowhere is that truer than in Ireland. I'm sure the vast majority of people who went to that Deportivo game hadn't gone to an EL in the year previous and haven't gone to another one since but that if Bohemians v Real Madrid was in town next Wednesday they'd be the first in the queue to buy tickets..

I think it's great that GAA gets 1.9million per year but I just think it's not as simple as saying 'theres 1.9 million' so we're more popular sport by far.

But if there is routinely 1 Million per year at Championship games, does that not give any indication?.
Again, is there not an FAI cup, and how many attended the occasion games for Drogs or Derry?.

AthAnRi

Why are so many Soccer fans so Bitter when it comes to Croke Park. GAA fans never ever complain about the fact that there is no Hurling/Football played in any Soccer grounds in the country.

Croke Park is a GAA stadium. The GAA don't owe the FAI or UEFA or FIFA jack sh1t. Just because they recieved funding from the government doesn't mean they have to allow soccer to be played on it.

And guess what GAA is more popular than Soccer in this Particular Island. GAA is our national sport. Sports that were developed in these Islands and something every Irish person should take pride in. I know very few people that support soccer and don't at the minimum have at least a passing interest in Hurling or Football. While I do know a lot of people that support GAA and have no interest whatsoever in Soccer.

AthAnRi

Just want to make it clear that I am all for Soccer in Croker Park. I think it would be great to see Croker displayed on an international level as it will be int 2007. However If the GAA decide not to allow certain event, be it football, soccer, cricket whatever then I'm gonna respect their decision.

Likewise if the Rugby/Soccer boys or whoever is in charge of Landsdowne, decide not to allow Hurling/Football and whatever esle then they are also entitled to do so. It's there pitch and they have the right to say no.

Pigman II

Blackjack wrote:

But if there is routinely 1 Million per year at Championship games, does that not give any indication?.
Again, is there not an FAI cup, and how many attended the occasion games for Drogs or Derry?.

Well that further depends on what one defines an 'occasion' game. I'd define it as a game where many of the top players or teams in the world are on show and stakes are high.

The GAA are in the fortunate position that all the best teams and players in the world for their sports just happen to be in Ireland anyway.

Blackjack

Pigman II wrote:

Well that further depends on what one defines an 'occasion' game. I'd define it as a game where many of the top players or teams in the world are on show and stakes are high.

The GAA are in the fortunate position that all the best teams and players in the world for their sports just happen to be in Ireland anyway.

You've defined these as Occasion games, not anyone else. The attendance at the Gaelic Football Championships is hardly a poor demonstration of the GAA being popular, as you've been the one to decide that these are occasion games and nothing else. By your definition you are ruling out any non-League type event as only being an occasion even, so the Champions League Final is only an occasion event, as is the Uefa cup.

Some Players (Setanta O'Hailpín, Tadhg Kennelly, among others) also play in Australia, and New York and London compete in the championship also. Surely there are good soccer players in Ireland?. That chap Shane Byrne seems pretty handy. I've still not seen any figures for Soccer's occasion games.

SectionF

therecklessone wrote:

For comparison, will you throw open the doors of Harristown to Ollie Byrne in the future?

As for name calling, I do believe you were the one to throw around the bigoted tag. Glasshouses and stones do not mix well.

Renting the ground for a once-off event is hardly 'throwing open the doors'. But, to answer your question, I'd be delighted, with I'm sure most Bohs fans, and certainly BFC's accountants, to have Shels as occasional tenants. We've had this arrangement in place already with Shamrock Rovers, who are hardly bosom pals.
Anyone else, including the GAA, interested in making an advance booking will no doubt get an eager reception at Dalymount Park.
To the substantive issue: having deigned to answer the question you are claiming that the decision to scupper a Champions League final in Dublin is one based on commercial considerations. I don't buy that, as it is not consistent with the association's posture in relation to other sporting and cultural events. Calling it as it is is not to indulge in name-calling. Bigotry can be dressed up, but at root that is what is driving the GAA's response.

Blackjack

SectionF wrote:

Renting the ground for a once-off event is hardly 'throwing open the doors'. But, to answer your question, I'd be delighted, with I'm sure most Bohs fans, and certainly BFC's accountants, to have Shels as occasional tenants. We've had this arrangement in place already with Shamrock Rovers, who are hardly bosom pals.
Anyone else, including the GAA, interested in making an advance booking will no doubt get an eager reception at Dalymount Park.
To the substantive issue: having deigned to answer the question you are claiming that the decision to scupper a Champions League final in Dublin is one based on commercial considerations. I don't buy that, as it is not consistent with the association's posture in relation to other sporting and cultural events. Calling it as it is is not to indulge in name-calling. Bigotry can be dressed up, but at root that is what is driving the GAA's response.

What's preventing the 2010 Champions League Final being played in Lansdowne road as opposed to Croke Park?.

Why should the GAA be expected to offer their stadium when the completed Lansdowne road will be available?.

Pigman II

I'm correlating the similar factors that exist among any sporting occasion in this country that attract a large attendance and media attention. I'm not the only one who defines it, the vast majority of people who attend these sporting occasions themselves by there very nature of being there are the ones defining it

Also, It's not about just being 'good'. It is undeniable that the vast majority of the Irish soccer-following public has a certain mindset about at what level a soccer player should perform at and nothing less than that will do for their consumption.

A Dub in Glasgo

SectionF wrote:

That's not an answer.

Of course it is an answer! It may not be the answer you want to hear though

therecklessone

SectionF wrote:

To the substantive issue: having deigned to answer the question you are claiming that the decision to scupper a Champions League final in Dublin is one based on commercial considerations.

First of all, how is it the GAA's fault that a Champions League cannot be played in Dublin? Returning to my earlier question, what makes you think the GAA has a duty to provide Croker Park to the football community for a showcase? When Wembley is finally finished, England, Scotland, and Wales will all have footballing facilities available to their respective FAs that meet the required standards for a CL final. Ireland will not, at least until Lansdowne is redeveloped. The blame for that lies squarely at the feet of the FAI and the football community in this country. The GAA has no duty to you or I as football supporters.

SectionF wrote:

Renting the ground for a once-off event is hardly 'throwing open the doors'.

But I thought the use of Croke Park was only to be until Lansdowne was redeveloped? Now its for that and a CL final. Pretty soon its for that, a CL final, and an Ireland-England soccer international, and an Ireland-New Zealand rugby clash, then included in the stadia for a Euro Championships bid (again...:rolleyes: ) or a Rugby WC.

I mocked GAA fans when they said the redevelopment phase was the thin edge of the wedge, I see where they were coming from now.

SecionF wrote:

I don't buy that, as it is not consistent with the association's posture in relation to other sporting and cultural events.

Which other pursuit that has been allowed at Croke Park is in direct competition with the GAA for support? Like it or not, the GAA is in competition with football and rugby, and does not have the help that the glamour of top flight football across the water brings to the football community. Why should it add to that by allowing a CL in Croke Park?

therecklessone

p.s. the redeveloped Lansdowne will have the necessary capacity for a 5 star rating, which allows it to hold a CL final. Whether it meets the other criteria is an issue for the FAI/IRFU and the stadium planners.

SectionF

The GAA doesn't 'have to' do anything. We already know that it can more or less do what it likes, and good luck to it.
But if the new stadium is ruled out, and if it is the only option available, and the GAA plays dog in the manger, then people will draw the only conclusion possible, that it just can't stomach football being played on its holy ground (originally occupied, of course, by BFC).
'Thin end of the wedge': that use of language is about the right pitch, I'd say.

Blackjack

Pigman II wrote:

I'm correlating the similar factors that exist among any sporting occasion in this country that attract a large attendance and media attention. I'm not the only one who defines it, the vast majority of people who attend these sporting occasions themselves by there very nature of being there are the ones defining it

Also, It's not about just being 'good'. It is undeniable that the vast majority of the Irish soccer-following public has a certain mindset about at what level a soccer player should perform at and nothing less than that will do for their consumption.

Fair enough, but you are effectively discounting the attendance of 1 Million people at various sporting occasions as irrelevant, I'll beg to differ.

If the soccer fans were to turn out more to the games that take place in the Eircom League, then perhaps we'd have a better chance of getting the good players (Kevin Doyle might be a good example) to say here as opposed to heading off for the more lucrative pay in the English or Scottish Leagues. For what it's worth, I believe that the Eircom League is improving vastly, as will be comparable to the standard of the SPL in a couple of years if this trend continues (I'm basing this on various performances in the past couple of years, Derry vs Gretna and Hibs Tour of Ireland a few years ago). However, this will only occur if people are willing to show their support by attending these games, and buying the jerseys, as opposed to doing the same for Games accross the water.

Blackjack

SectionF wrote:

The GAA doesn't 'have to' do anything. We already know that it can more or less do what it likes, and good luck to it.
But if the new stadium is ruled out, and if it is the only option available, and the GAA plays dog in the manger, then people will draw the only conclusion possible, that it just can't stomach football being played on its holy ground (originally occupied, of course, by BFC).
'Thin end of the wedge': that use of language is about the right pitch, I'd say.

A lot of If's there. Why would the new Lansdowne road stadium be ruled out?.
Your Conclusion is a bit flawed. The GAA has already given permission to allow Soccer and Rugby to be played there during the development period.

Pigman II

Blackjack wrote:

Fair enough, but you are effectively discounting the attendance of 1 Million people at various sporting occasions as irrelevant, I'll beg to differ.

I'm not discounting them. I wish we had an extra million at EL games. I'm saying that it is not possible/fair to compare the like with like on raw attendances because similar structures, products and competitors do not exist for both sports.

Blackjack

Pigman II wrote:

I'm not discounting them. I wish we had an extra million at EL games. I'm saying that it is not possible/fair to compare the like with like on raw attendances because similar structures, products and competitors do not exist for both sports.

It's probably reflective of the popularity of the GAA that they can command the attendances and therefore have built the Stadia that they have that fill up on regular occasions. I'd love to see the Eircom League have the same, however as per my earlier point, unless people start turning up, this will never happen.

PiE

GAA gets bigger attendances because all the games are played locally and have deep-rooted fanbases, as well as the 'showpiece' games in Croker.

Soccer is the more watched sport, as in... from sofas.

Chucky the tree

Not a big fan of the GAA organisation, but its their stadium, they can do what they want.


All this "moan moan but they used tax payers money" is retarded.

cournioni

Pigman II wrote:

Crokers not up to UEFA standard anyway so let the GAA say they don't want a final if they wish.

Besides, everytime I look at it's unique 3/4er finished 'style' I'm kinda glad the rest of Europe will never get to see it.

Hopefully the new Lansdowne when it's completed will be a stadium actually worthy of such an occasion.

Better than having a boring plastic stadium with no charm.

Pigman II

PORNAPSTER wrote:

Better than having a boring plastic stadium with no charm.

Not really, otherwise everyone would be building charming new stadia that look like a dogs dinner.

cournioni

Pigman II wrote:

Not really, otherwise everyone would be building charming new stadia that look like a dogs dinner.

In your opinion. Personally I would have Croker over any soccer stadium in the world. That is my opinion. If you asked most soccer fans whether they would prefer safe terracing or a pile of seats that you must sit down on at all times, I would put my money on the terracing every time.

Pigman II

PORNAPSTER wrote:

In your opinion. Personally I would have Croker over any soccer stadium in the world. That is my opinion. If you asked most soccer fans whether they would prefer safe terracing or a pile of seats that you must sit down on at all times, I would put my money on the terracing every time.

It's not my opinion. It's the opinion of people who design and pay for new stadia.

And btw even if Croker had seats on the Hill instead of terraces I'd still be of the opinion it looks like a dogs dinner so it's not just about seating.