Italian fans behaviour in Europe

therecklessone

Now I know people are going to say that English fans attract trouble to themselves by their own behaviour, and in the case of West Ham I'd tend to agree, but I have to ask what is being done about the reception that Englisg club fans are getting whenever they travel to Italy for European games?

I've heard some very disturbing stories coming from the Palermo-West Ham tie on Thursday night. There were repeated clashes between opposing fans, but I've heard stories of locals on scooters with pilion passengers armed with knives running alongside West Ham fans and slashing at them. The away fans were kept in the ground for nearly 2 hours after the game, then frog marched through some local s*ithole before being abandoned by the riot police to fend for themselves. Is that not irresponsible? Would that happen in England?

Last year saw a a number of Boro fans stabbed in Rome before their Uefa Cup 1/4 final with Roma, local eyewitnesses confirmed that police stood by for 15 minutes while a small group of Roma Ultras attacked a group of Boro fans story

An Italian barman, who gave his name as Lorenzo, said that Italian police watched and waited for more than 15 minutes before intervening in the violence.

"At around 11.30pm a small group of Ultra fans wearing black and ski masks arrived in the square," he said. "They were armed with knives and bats and started throwing missiles and hitting the English fans. During the 15 to 20 minutes that the riot continued at no time did the police intervene and when they did it was too late as those Ultras had run away."

"The English supporters took refuge in the bars, some of them were injured and many were scared. The police came into the bar with batons and physically forced the fans, many of whom were families with wives and children, to get out of the bar, treating them as though they were beasts."

The chairman of Cleveland Police Authority confirmed the allegations, as he was witness to much of the trouble!

According to Mr McLuckie, more than 3,000 fans were caught up at some stage in unprovoked police violence.

He said: "If I hadn't been able to produce my police authority identity I don't know what would have happened.

"Fans were being beaten up and the police were actually stealing private property - not money but perfumes and other items, from the fans.

"Everyone was fingertip-searched on entry into the ground, and the police behaviour was just appalling."

Source

Liverpool fans were showered with coins and missles during their tie with Juventus last season, actions which prompted the Turin police to appeal to Arsenal fans who travelled in last season's CL not to allow themselves to be provoked by local hooligans.

In an interview with CBC Sports Online last September, Paddy Agnew, Rome correspondent for the Irish Times, said many Italian teams are at the mercy of the ultras.

"You can not underestimate the influence that the ultras yield over clubs," explained Agnew, who has lived and worked in Italy since 1985.

"It is not uncommon for the ultras to hold the clubs up for ransom: they'll demand the clubs give them free match tickets and buses to transport them to away games. If the club doesn't provide them with these things, the ultras threaten to go to the games on their own and run riot in the town centre, start scuffles in the stands and attack opposing fans.

"It's a very effective form of blackmail that the ultras have no shame in using."

Not only do clubs let these thugs become season-ticket holders, Agnew also explained that teams allow the ultras to operate in the curva (the end sections of the stadium they have marked out as their own) free from scrutiny.

"Police and security figures keep an eye on the ultras, but rarely go into their section to confront them when they throw stuff onto the field, brandish fascist signs or begin racist chants," said Agnew.
Lazio ultras

"Only when the ultras are a threat to other fans in the stadium does security even think about taking action against them."

All fans are officially barred from bringing in flares and racist banners into Italian stadiums, but the ultras are somehow above the law.

"How else do you explain the ultras bringing massive banners with swastikas and neo-Nazi symbols into the stadium? How else do you explain ultras being allowed to serenade black players with monkey chants? Or being allowed to throw objects onto the field? It's madness," said Agnew.

If this was occuring in England, UEFA would be threatening expulsion. Why is nobody willing to tackle Italian hooliganism?

AnCapaillMor

An english team farts and they get nailed for it. Italians have gotten away with murder the past few years particularly Inter and Roma.

Ultras are scary, they stopped a roma Lazio game last year. Basically told totti, call the game off or else.

bucks73

Bet you wont hear anything from Blatter about it. Italian football is muck and is watched by right wing ultras in half empty stadiums. Oh and its corrupt too.

gustavo

bucks73 wrote:

Bet you wont hear anything from Blatter about it. Italian football is muck and is watched by right wing ultras in half empty stadiums. Oh and its corrupt too.

Jeez Talk about sweeping generalizations!

godtabh

bucks73 wrote:

Bet you wont hear anything from Blatter about it. Italian football is muck and is watched by right wing ultras in half empty stadiums. Oh and its corrupt too.

I watch a lot of Italian football both live and on the tv. You havent a clue if thats what you think.

Some games dont have full houses but you try and get a AC-Inter ticket or a Roma - Lazio ticket.

I've been to a few Inter games and have never faced violence even when I wore my inter shirt in the AC end in the 2004 AC home derby.

I'm not left wing or right. I just like football.

I think you just maybe a fool

thebaz

kearnsr wrote:

I watch a lot of Italian football both live and on the tv. You havent a clue if thats what you think.

Some games dont have full houses but you try and get a AC-Inter ticket or a Roma - Lazio ticket.

I've been to a few Inter games and have never faced violence even when I wore my inter shirt in the AC end in the 2004 AC home derby.

I'm not left wing or right. I just like football.

I think you just maybe a fool

Italian football is corrupt -- if Chelsea won the Premiership by match fixing , there would have been much more serious penaltys than occured in Italy, similar to the blind eye turned to Italian footbal violence. , -- look at the investigations that is happening into bungs , which is a much lesser offence than match fixing, while most of the match fixing penalties in Italy were successfully appealed.
Pity , cause i used to like Italian club football, when it was good , and less dishonest.

eirebhoy

thebaz wrote:

Italian football is corrupt -- if Chelsea won the Premiership by match fixing , there would have been much more serious penaltys than occured in Italy, similar to the blind eye turned to Italian footbal violence. , -- look at the investigations that is happening into bungs , which is a much lesser offence than match fixing, while most of the match fixing penalties in Italy were successfully appealed.
Pity , cause i used to like Italian club football, when it was good , and less dishonest.

I personally thought they overreacted to the "match fixing" claims. You'd hardly even have known the world cup was about to start in Italy. They hardly fixed matches, just got themselves a few advantages in a few matches. At the end of the day, if there's 22 players on the pitch they'll all be trying to win the match. Do you think Italian's are talking about the English Bung claims?

tdv

bucks73 wrote:

Italian football is muck QUOTE]

Thats just sh!te, Series A is tactically superior to the Premiership.
Oh & incase you didnt know Italy are World Champions so I dont see whats so "muck" about Italian football

bucks73

I actually think Serie A is extremely boring to watch and technically inferior to the Premier League and Primera Liga. And definitely less exciting. Traditionally the Italians have promoted a very defensive game and most coaches still think this way. IMO only Milan try to play attractive attacking football.

Just look at Juve the past two seasons. Before the match fixing verdicts came out I was baffled to how they could be champions. They were ultra defensive, boring and couldnt score in a brothel. Their home against Liverpool in the CL showed them for what they are.

And this season Inter are the same. Admittedly they and Roma shouldnt have opposition in the league thanks to the bans but they have looked terrible in CL. How Juve or Inter think Ibrahimovic is a decent player I cant understand.

Then you have the Italians clubs record in Europe. In the last ten Champions Leagues they have won one (Spain 4, England 2, Germany 2, Italy 1, Portugal 1) and in the UEFA cup they have won 2, the last one being in 99 (Italy 2, Spain 2, Holland 1, Russia 1, Portugal 1, England 1, Turkey 1, Germany 1).

Superior football? I dont think so. And the summer verdicts on corruption just proved what a lot of people have suspected for a long time. Corruption is nothing new to Italy, the most famous case being Paolo Rossi and then only a couple of seasons ago an incident involving 2 Serie B clubs (cant remember which) where one presidetn is caught coming out of anothers home with something like 30 grand in cash in the boot of the car. This was before last game of the season and bribe was to ensure correct result.

As for the stadiums not being full, someone quoted above 2 derby games. I would be very surprised if the ground was not full for the Derby in Milan or Rome, Italys two major cities. What about Juve? Getting pathetic crowds for CL matches. Have a look at this:http://itv.stats.football365.com/dom/ITA/SA/attend.html
Only 3 teams are averaging over 60% of their grounds capacity.

DerekD Goldfish

What about Juve? Getting pathetic crowds for CL matches.

The reason for this is its quite hard for most Juve fans to travel thew massive distance to games midweek. Juventus are the most suported club in the country about 35% but most of this suport comes from fans in parts of Italy with either no team or no big team to follow. Juventus are the glory hunters fans club in Italy. Torino probably have a bigger suport base in Turin than Juventus.

Then you have the Italians clubs record in Europe. In the last ten Champions Leagues they have won one (Spain 4, England 2, Germany 2, Italy 1, Portugal 1)

If you count Finalists rather than winners its (Spain 6, Italy 5, England 3, France 1, Portugal 1) Ac Milan have appeared in more finals than anyone and are Italian, Jeventus have apeared in the 3rd most finals and are Italian.

Also with regars he UEFA cup Italian teams have won and appeared in more finals than any other country bar england who thier are joint with on 10 wins 8 runners up.

You could point out that historical facts arnt a good basis of currrent strenth but You were using historical facts to back up your arguemnts its crap

Also Italy won the WC this years with a team almost entirly made up of players from the Italian Leagues

also one of the main reasons for poor attendances in Seire A was that for the 90 Wc the Stadia were built to big in order to get awarded host team could then not fill these stadia.

bucks73

DerekD Goldfish wrote:

If you count Finalists rather than winners its (Spain 6, Italy 5, England 3, France 1, Portugal 1) Ac Milan have appeared in more finals than anyone and are Italian, Jeventus have apeared in the 3rd most finals and are Italian.

Also with regars he UEFA cup Italian teams have won and appeared in more finals than any other country bar england who thier are joint with on 10 wins 8 runners up.

Sure who remembers the losers?

eirebhoy

bucks73 wrote:

Just look at Juve the past two seasons. Before the match fixing verdicts came out I was baffled to how they could be champions. They were ultra defensive, boring and couldnt score in a brothel.

You're judging them on 2 games against English teams no doubt? Is that all you get to see of them? Most of the Juventus team played in the world cup final in June (Buffon, Cannavaro, Del Piero, Zambrotta, Thuram, Camoranesi, Trezeguet and Vieira). So what if they were boring against Arsenal and Liverpool.

bucks73 wrote:

And this season Inter are the same.

Inter Milan 4 - 3 Chievo (Serie A)
Fiorentina 2 - 3 Inter Milan (Serie A)
Inter Milan E 4 - 3 E Roma (Super Coppa)

They seem entertaining to me. Also the Roma and Inter match was excellent. They may be poor in the CL this season but does mean they're a boring team? Again technically inferior? Inter's bench against Roma was Toldo, Maxwell, Samuel, Figo, Gonzalez, Solari, Adriano. If they're failing in the champions league it's not because they're technically inferior to the other teams.

DerekD Goldfish

bucks73 wrote:

Sure who remembers the losers?

Far more than the teams knocked out in the group stages;)

therecklessone

Thats all lovely lads, but eh...the thread topic?

bucks73

DerekD Goldfish wrote:

Far more than the teams knocked out in the group stages;)

Touché

DerekD Goldfish

therecklessone wrote:

Thats all lovely lads, but eh...the thread topic?

Indeed
While the ultra groups in Italy are indeed unsetteling in this case at the home leg West ham were selling T-****s commerating thier meeting with the "Mafia" calling people from the area your playing crooks the week before you play them isnt a good Idea.
I dispise all of these kinds of groups in whatever country they operate and the stranglehold they have on some clubs is frightening but to declare that because of this all Italian football is worthless is absurd.

therecklessone

DerekD Goldfish wrote:

Indeed
While the ultra groups in Italy are indeed unsetteling in this case at the home leg West ham were selling T-****s commerating thier meeting with the "Mafia" calling people from the area your playing crooks the week before you play them isnt a good Idea.

Agreed, but then one should always question the wisdom of a group who by all accounts had more fights among themselves in Palermo than with the locals. Do you believe the welcome would have been any different had the t-shirts not been on sale before the 1st leg?

DerekD Goldfish wrote:

I dispise all of these kinds of groups in whatever country they operate and the stranglehold they have on some clubs is frightening but to declare that because of this all Italian football is worthless is absurd.

Not having declared anything of the sort, and having a great deal of respect for the Italian game, I'd still prefer if people addressed the topic I raised. The value or lack thereof of the Italian league is a topic for another thread.

I attend football matches across England as a supporter of Spurs and I see the police act with military precision in dealing with potential trouble. Away fans are monitored closely, police attend in sufficient numbers to ensure trouble does not flare up, local tarnsport links are monitored to ensure trouble does not occur on the way to the ground. If London MP officers had abandoned Palermo fans in the East End after the 1st leg of their tie they'd have been slaughtered.

The UK authorities appear to be the only ones taking football violence seriously. If I chose to copy the behavior of Juve fans from last years home tie to Liverpool at a game in England I would be removed from the stadium, have my season ticket revoked and face criminal prosecution and/or a stadium ban. For f**k's sake, I know of a Spurs fan who was threatened with arrest for incitement for chanting "Yid Army" once as he walked up Park Lane past the deserted entrance to the away end last season...:eek:

The culprit of this famous incident (video of same) is still allowed attend Inter games, according to Paddy Agnew's book on Italian football, police are powerless to stop his entry.

Its not confined to Italian football, its a European phenomena. Yet critics continue to talk of the "English Disease" and bury their heads in the sand. For what its worth, only away trips to West Ham and Sheff Utd leave me anyway worried in the PL (though I do not fancy the thought of Cardiff, Millwall, or Leeds). On the other hand, I will not visit Turkey, large parts of Central and Eastern Europe (especially Poland), certain clubs in Holland (mainly Feyenoord) and I'm a bit apprehensive of my trip to Leverkusen in this years Uefa Cup (after a pub was attacked by Schalke fans during our pre-season friendly in Dortmund). What's it going to take for Uefa to act, another Heysel? I sincerely hope not.

Bateman

If Liverpool fans murdered 39 of my countrymen at a football game I'd bear a grudge. Probably for as long as I lived. In Italy, 25 mates can still (just about) go to a match and stand together. In the Premiership this isn't possible.

therecklessone

Bateman wrote:

In Italy, 25 mates can still (just about) go to a match and stand together. In the Premiership this isn't possible.

Proves my point.

UK authorities addressed the problem (though I'm not a fan of compulsory seating), the Italians haven't, nor have many of the other FAs and governments.

The freedom of the Italian terraces shows a lack of action, not a lack of a need for action.

Bateman

No, the freedom of Italian terraces is due to the low attendances. Ticket prices are a damn sight cheaper than in the Premiership. And the authorities in Italy have clamped down a fair deal in the past 10 years.

therecklessone

Bateman wrote:

No, the freedom of Italian terraces is due to the low attendances.

And inaction by Italian authorities.

Care to point to another top flight league in Europe where fans managed to get a game abandoned after consultation with certain players?

Benedict XVI

I totally agree with the OP on this one.
The problem is in Europe generally the English will be blamed for all the ills in the football world based on the bad days of the 70s and 80s and a blind eye will be turned and excuses will be made for the Italians, Poles, Turks etc.

I was at a Lazio v Bisetkas (sp) CL game in Rome a few years back. Sat in the opposite end to the Ultras, it looked crazy over the far side, glad I was no where near it. And the Stadio Olympico is an utter kip to boot.

Mr. Presentable

The simple fact is that football all over Europe is still beset with problems. Some countries have been forced to deal with them quicker than others. England has dealt with the racism problem, and the hooligan one in the PL (but not in the lower leagues. Their answer has been to not report them).

Spain has a racism issue, as does Italy - though not to the same extent, Italy, Holland, Germany all have hooliganism, though not to the degree the English had. Obviously Turkey has a different kind of hooliganism....

Italy has dealt with drugs issues (not acknowledged as a problem in England - therefore doesn't exist!) and corruption (which again England doesn't have ).
The truth is - all countries have social problems and football, being the game of the people, reflects them.

As for "the police standing by", these are the remarks of the less informed - hearsay. Yes the English have a bad name, but it's not undeserved - look at recent World Cups to see how they are expected to be up for a barney - and are! You'd find it hard to provoke Irish fans into a riot so easily, though that, sadly, is beginning to change as we attempt to mimic our bigger neighbours

therecklessone

nipplenuts wrote:

As for "the police standing by", these are the remarks of the less informed - hearsay.

I wonder who is less informed, eyewitnesses to an incident or nipplenuts?

eyewitness or nipplenuts?
eyewitness or nipplenuts?
eyewitness or nipplenuts?

So who's word do you not believe? The head of Cleveland's Police Authority who was quoted as saying "the police behaviour was just appalling" after Boro's trip to Rome last year? Paddy Agnew, Italian correspondent for the Irish Times, and a deeply respected writer on Italian football who said "police and security figures keep an eye on the ultras, but rarely go into their section to confront them when they throw stuff onto the field, brandish fascist signs or begin racist chants"? The Italian eyewitness quoted in the Times (UK) after Roma fans attacked Boro fans, including women and children, in Rome as saying "Italian police watched and waited for more than 15 minutes before intervening in the violence"?

Yep, heresay...:rolleyes:

Collie D

Agree with OP. Not saying that hooliganism isn't still a problem in England but the FA and the police have made huge steps in combatting it and the problem is noweher near as bad as the 70s and 80s or as it is across Europe. If these were English fans starting trouble at Euro games and not Italians. Poles, Turks etc, UEFA would throw the book at them and rightly so but why should it be one rule for the English and another for the rest.