[Article] Folens to wipe 'British Isles' off the map in new atlas

Voipjunkie

strassenwolf wrote:

I know a considerable amount about it.

The salient point about Irish history, as far as most of the rest of the world is concerned, is that it was a downtrodden province of Britain for most of the last millenium. And, as far as much of the rest of the world is concerned, the two islands are part of the one entity. People in Ireland and Britain know that that is not the case, but large parts of the rest of the world are not all that sure, to the extent that they really care one way or the other.

We can go along with all this politically correct stuff, and it is correct, of using "British and Irish Isles" or whatever. The rest of the world will not pay any attention. The New Zealanders, South Africans and Australians do not, in the main, refer to the "British and Irish Lions" rugby team, though their newspapers probably do. To the average punter in those countries, that rugby team is the "British Lions". It's just easier, and everybody knows who they're referring to.

We saw this only a few weeks ago when the Ryder Cup was in Ireland. The flag used to represent Europe was the flag of the European Union. A flag whose design was established by the officials of the EU, not by officials of all the countries which are in what is conventionally termed "Europe".

So what happens when a decent Swiss golfer comes along, or a decent Norwegian (of which there are many). Will it then be the US against Europe and Switzerland, or the US against Europe and Norway? How many flags will we see on the "European" side? Will we have two or three, i.e., the EU flag and the Swiss and/or Norwegian flag?

My guess is that the EU flag alone will be used in such a scenario. It's not meant to imply that Norway or Switzerland are part of the EU, it's just easier for all concerned. In the same way that "The British Isles" is not meant to mean that everything therein belongs to Britain. It is just an easier, catchier phrase for the rest of the world to get a handle on.

Anybody in the rest of the world who gives a damn will know the correct territorial/political situation in "The British Isles".

I think you have summed up the whole arguement yes it is easier to call the two Islands the British Isles but it is incorrect and leads to confusion.
This coupled with the fact of Irelands history with Britain means that most Irish people are insulted by the term so why should our own Government continue to use it or to have it in a text book to teach our children.
Maybe the rest of the world wont give a **** and continue to use the term but that is no reason for us to continue using the term and we have to start somewhere there is no way we will ever convince anyone not to use the term if we continue to use it ourselves and even teach it to our children.

And if the rest of the world is of the opinion that Ireland and Britain are of the one entity phrases like the British Isles only add to that confusion so the sooner we stop using it the sooner that confusion will go away.

And as for the Ryder cup the EU has never invaded or occuppied the Swiss or the Norwegians and if any Swiss or Norwegian golfers come along that will be a matter for them to take up wether they want to be represented by the EU flag or not

corktina

ok, lets stop calling the archipelago British Isles and lets stop exporting stuff to them too.....someone else will help prop up our economy Im sure....

Navan Junction

corktina wrote:

ok, lets stop calling the archipelago British Isles

Did we ever start to use that term? No.

corktina wrote:

lets stop exporting stuff to them too.....someone else will help prop up our economy Im sure....

Good night.

Voipjunkie

corktina wrote:

ok, lets stop calling the archipelago British Isles and lets stop exporting stuff to them too.....someone else will help prop up our economy Im sure....

Utter ****e The Brits are not propping up anybody

Secondly nobody is suggesting that we cut of contact with the British we can have perfectly healthy relationships with them as we do with many countries without including ourselves in the term British Isles.
Should we claim to be part of key west Florida in case we upset the US.

LordSutch

The term 'british Isles' is used all the time in certain circles (Ireland included) specifically amongst the Cartography fraternity & those who study climate and weather trends ~ apart from those groups the term is very rarely used, if at all..........................

As has been pointed out countless times before in this thread & other threads, the term 'British Isles' pertains to these 6000 (approx) islands and NOT the inhabitants!

Britain (great bretagne) was the name given to the largest island in Europe in historic times, before any Irish people had serious hang-ups about their next door neighbours, the term is purely geographic in meaning & it does not convey to foreigners that the Republic is still part of the UK.

By the way, did you know that New Zealand is part of Australasia, & the Faroe islands are not Egyptian

Navan Junction

ArthurF wrote:

The term 'british Isles' is used all the time in certain circles (Ireland included)

I studied geography up to honours Leaving Cert and never once used or heard the term mentioned in school.

ArthurF wrote:

Britain (great bretagne) was the name given to the largest island in Europe in historic times, before any Irish people had serious hang-ups about their next door neighbours

Which was probably before they started burning, pillaging, raping, dispossessing, discriminating, murdering, invading and occupying those same Irish people. Pardon our hang-ups. And again as you say the larger island.

ArthurF wrote:

the term is purely geographic in meaning & it does not convey to foreigners that the Republic is still part of the UK.

It causes confusion and does nothing to tell the foreigners on the other isle that Britain is foreign both geographically and politically.

Look, you are preaching 'aren't we all friends' line to justify this bullollogy of a term. I'm one half of a mixed British and Irish wedded couple. You don't get much friendlier than that. I'm doing my bit for inter-island relations if you will.

But calling this a British Ireland, sorry island is blatant imposition of an unwanted term and raises hackles. You ain't engendering warm cuddly feelings to our neighbours accross the water by imposing that term.

It is laced with colonial connotations

Navan Junction

ArthurF wrote:

(great bretagne)

And what language is this supposed to be?

murphaph

Navan Junction wrote:

Britain is foreign both geographically and politically

It's not legally 'foreign' according to irish legislation (reciprocated by Westminster) and of course, it's not politically foreign at all if you are a Northern Ireland citizen and the last time I looked, Northern Ireland made up at least part of this island.

bk

Ok, the term "British Isles" is simply never used outside of Britain.

People outside of Britain simply call Britain, Britain, Great Britain (rarely), the UK or England and Ireland Ireland.

In all my travels I've never heard anyone say that I was from the British Isles. Most people have never even heard of that term.

Irish people really don't like the term, as they know that many British people use it in a condescending way as a substitute for the British Empire.

Victor

Navan Junction wrote:

So do Falkland Islanders

Well, not quite, many of them have British Overseas passports, but there have been recent changes. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nationality_law

Navan Junction wrote:

and the people of the Costa del Sol.

lol

Navan Junction wrote:

Which was probably before they started burning, pillaging, raping, dispossessing, discriminating, murdering, invading and occupying those same Irish people. Pardon our hang-ups. And again as you say the larger island.

Hey, its gone both ways for thousands of years.

Some maps
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ee.html
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/uk.html
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ei.html
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/reference_maps/pdf/europe.pdf (large)
https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/reference_maps/pdf/political_world.pdf (large)

Member states:
25 countries: Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, UK; note - Canary Islands (Spain), Azores and Madeira (Portugal), French Guyana, Guadeloupe, Martinique, and Reunion (France) are sometimes listed separately even though they are legally a part of Spain, Portugal, and France; candidate countries: Bulgaria, Croatia, Macedonia, Romania, Turkey

OK, how about people who claim that Switzerland is in the EEA (effectively it is, but on a bi-lateral as opposed to multi-lateral basis). And everyone forgets Liechtenstein! and Monaco, Andora, San Marino, The Holy See ...

OK, lets now define the Eurozone.

Victor

It struck me. Certain areas are neither in nor out of the EU - Monaco, San Marino, etc.

How about "You aren't allowed say we are part of the British Isles, but neither are you allowed say we are not part of the British Isles"?

corktina

Victor wrote:

It struck me. Certain areas are neither in nor out of the EU - Monaco, San Marino, etc.

How about "You aren't allowed say we are part of the British Isles, but neither are you allowed say we are not part of the British Isles"?

ah the voice of reason.....

interestingly, I believe parts of the (excuse me) British Isles arent part of the EU either.....Jersey et al, Isle of Man, Craggy Island

Victor

corktina wrote:

ah the voice of reason..... interestingly, I believe parts of the (excuse me) British Isles arent part of the EU either.....Jersey et al, Isle of Man, Craggy Island

Its a little fuzzy ... like posting at 7.31am after being up all night.

Navan Junction

murphaph wrote:

It's not legally 'foreign' according to irish legislation (reciprocated by Westminster) and of course.

But technically we are all European citizens now. So by your logic noone in the EU is foreign to Ireland?

No British Isles on those CIA maps, god bless them. Apart from that daft Londonderry reference.

Can you believe the the conquering English 'gave' the entire county of Derry to London County Council?!

That's where that name comes from.

But hey, it's obviously a geographic term as London and Derry are connected by water, and it would be impossible to name one without connecting it to the other. (But really only when you are reffering to the latter)

And apparently the Romans thought the Ancient Britains in London were related to the O'Dohertys, Maguires and the Mac Sweeneys so they said it was ok to call it Londinium D-erronious as well.

Victor wrote:

Hey, its gone both ways for thousands of years.

As about as both ways as the traffic on the N3 at 6.15am weekday mornings.. I can't remember the last time the Irish garrissoned a British town for eight hundred years.

Alun

bk wrote:

Ok, the term "British Isles" is simply never used outside of Britain.

People outside of Britain simply call Britain, Britain, Great Britain (rarely), the UK or England and Ireland Ireland.

In all my travels I've never heard anyone say that I was from the British Isles. Most people have never even heard of that term.

Irish people really don't like the term, as they know that many British people use it in a condescending way as a substitute for the British Empire.

Sigh. That's because, as has often been repeated, it's a geographical term. Try looking in atlasses produced by foreign publishers, or watch a foreign weather forecast, you'll see or hear it then. Britische Inseln, Britse Eilanden, Iles Britanniques etc. etc.

You don't use it in the context of "I'm from ...", in much the same way as Kiwis don't say "I'm from Australasia", or Canadians "I'm from North America".

And as for the condescending substitute for British Empire? Utter and complete bollocks.

Navan Junction

Alun wrote:

And as for the condescending substitute for British Empire? Utter and complete bollocks.

:eek:

Would you descibe yourself as geographic cruasader or, ahem, a british islander?

I can ubderstand people having an emotial reaction against the term, but an emotional reation in defense of the term catches me completely off guard.

Alun

Navan Junction wrote:

:eek:

Would you descibe yourself as geographic cruasader or, ahem, a british islander?

I don't describe myself as anything, I'm just me

Navan Junction

Alun wrote:

I don't describe myself as anything, I'm just me

That's fair enough. Arguementative shower here..:rolleyes:

bazzer

Just as an observation, I've heard the CNN weather describe these islands as 'the British Isles and Ireland'.
This thread reminds me of the ruffled feathers when MTV (on the Sky TV platform) re-launched itself as MTV UK with typical Union Jackery, but used Irish images, like pictures of U2 and the Cranberries, as part of their promotional material.
It wasn't long until they had to re-re-launch as MTV UK and Ireland!

Metrobest

shltter wrote:

Is this a troll attempt or are you ****ing serious

We were eating potatoes and living stone Cottages because of the Brits the Industrial revolution passed this country by because of the brits and if we had not managed to kick them out of the 26 counties when we did this place would be a basket case just like the North.

We have nothing to thank Britain for unless you would like to thank them for Murder Oppression Violence emigration a Famine

How far this state has come in the relatively short time since Independence is a testament to how poorly it was run before that

See, your po-faced response to my (funny) comment about us all eating potatoes is quite telling.

As far as the famine goes - well it was 150 years ago so I think we should move on now. For goodness sake, nobody holds the new generation of Germans responsible for the concentration camps, but you want to elimate all aspects of Ireland's British history and culture because of something that happened generations ago. That leaves a bitter spud-flavoured taste in my mouth.

Now, if you think there weren't positive aspects of the British influence in Ireland, you are seriously off your tree. Just take a walk around Dublin today and look at the buildings you admire. They've all got one thing in common - built in the British era.

Or what? You prefer Liberty Hall and Hawkins House because they were built post indepence? I doubt it.

Say what you like about the British influence in Ireland, but at least they had a sense of the aesthetic, something many of us in Ireland still need to develop, especially looking at the McMansions popping up all over the countryside.

****ter and the other anti-Brits crawling around this forum, I have to say this and don't be offended, but let it be said that your attitude is straight out of the 1950s. You don't like the term "British Isles", so you don't think anybody else should be entitled to use if, if they so choose. (Even though it's already been explained to you that the term is meant as a handy geographical reference, not a political statement.)

To say that Ireland's woes were soothed once the Free State came into being is a gross distortion of history. The State went into decline in all areas of life - Post-independence Ireland was a miserable place: economically in the basement, culturally impoverished and ruled by the conservative despotic influences of the catholic church.

No wonder everyone emigrated.

gurramok

Metrobest wrote:

****ter and the other anti-Brits crawling around this forum, I have to say this and don't be offended, but let it be said that your attitude is straight out of the 1950s. You don't like the term "British Isles", so you don't think anybody else should be entitled to use if, if they so choose. (Even though it's already been explained to you that the term is meant as a handy geographical reference, not a political statement.)

To say that Ireland's woes were soothed once the Free State came into being is a gross distortion of history. The State went into decline in all areas of life - Post-independence Ireland was a miserable place: economically in the basement, culturally impoverished and ruled by the conservative despotic influences of the catholic church.

No wonder everyone emigrated.

Here we go again, label anyone who disagrees with your point of view an 'anti-brit'.
Sounds like your view is living in the past as well, pre 1920's keeping a colonial term which is offensive.

Move on with the times!

I guess all those that wrote our constitution and those that wrote the Good Friday Agreement including our present govt are all 'anti-brits' (including the brits themselves) as they refused to use the politicised geographic term British Isles to describe the islands Britain and Ireland?

nordydan

murphaph wrote:

It's not legally 'foreign' according to irish legislation (reciprocated by Westminster) and of course, it's not politically foreign at all if you are a Northern Ireland citizen and the last time I looked, Northern Ireland made up at least part of this island.

The orangeman-riddled part of this island accounts for only 7% geographically, and is getting smaller all the time as they are moving closer and closer to their true home - Scotland. In a similar way the west brits of Dublin 4 all live close to the port of Dun Laoghaire (or Kingstown as they call it). Perhaps it is time for them to consider catching a ferry and taking some of the self-hating unpatriotic contributors of this forum (who would be happier living in perfidious albion) with them!!!

murphaph

nordydan wrote:

The orangeman-riddled part of this island accounts for only 7% geographically, and is getting smaller all the time as they are moving closer and closer to their true home - Scotland. In a similar way the west brits of Dublin 4 all live close to the port of Dun Laoghaire (or Kingstown as they call it). Perhaps it is time for them to consider catching a ferry and taking some of the self-hating unpatriotic contributors of this forum (who would be happier living in perfidious albion) with them!!!

I'm pretty confident you're not an orangeman but I wonder, who collects your taxes? Inland Revenue or the Revenue Commissioners? That's what I meant by 'not foreign'-you live in the same country as the island of Britain forms part of. End of, despite what you may wish or aspire to.

Navan Junction wrote:

But technically we are all European citizens now. So by your logic noone in the EU is foreign to Ireland?

No, you misunderstand. I can automatically vote and stand for Westminster elections, even become PM if I wished, even though I am not a british citizen, I'm Irish-the same is reciprocated by us to them, a british citizen could become Taoiseach just the same! These 'luxuries' are not afforded to other nationals of other EU states which remain legally foreign, the UK is not foreign to us and we are not foreign to them. A german citizen can't join the Metropolitan Police or British Army, a paddy can! Same goes for the Gardai (if the brit speaks Irish of course!). Have a look at the Ireland Act 1949.

A Dub in Glasgo

murphaph wrote:

No, you misunderstand. I can automatically vote and stand for Westminster elections, even become PM if I wished,

I think you still need to get votes rather than just wishing it

even though I am not a british citizen, I'm Irish-the same is reciprocated by us to them, a british citizen could become Taoiseach just the same! These 'luxuries' are not afforded to other nationals of other EU states which remain legally foreign, the UK is not foreign to us and we are not foreign to them. A german citizen can't join the Metropolitan Police or British Army, a paddy can! Same goes for the Gardai (if the brit speaks Irish of course!). Have a look at the Ireland Act 1949.

We are foreign, I just see a reciporical arrangement in place that allows the things you describe. Reciporical arrangements are put in place all the time between countries. The question is the degree of the arrangment

Navan Junction

murphaph wrote:

A german citizen can't join the Metropolitan Police or British Army, a paddy can!

Irish people can't apply for intelligance agencies in Britain. Australians and former colonies can. And the Gurkas..

murphaph wrote:

No, you misunderstand. I can automatically vote and stand for Westminster elections, even become PM if I wished, even though I am not a british citizen

On average chances you couldn't become king, even with marriage.. The anti-democratic apartheid system blocks a Catholic head of state. We've had Catholic and Protestant Presidents.

Here, I think that the cross vote rule was designed to facilitate the likes of Mary McAleese.

Compare here and there. Our republican constitution is obviously more democratic than British class systems.

We are citizens, the British are subjects.

We also have differing recipricol voting across the EU. British subjects can't vote in Irish referendums.

A Dub in Glasgo

Here is a old map from 1852 titled 'The British Isles'

It consists of Ireland, Britain & the Isle of Man... but wait what is that body of water to the east of Britain called? Has that name fallen out of usage to be replaced with something else? How could it, afterall geographical names don't change?

Navan Junction

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Here is a old map from 1852 titled 'The British Isles'

It consists of Ireland, Britain & the Isle of Man... but wait what is that body of water to the east of Britain called? Has that name fallen out of usage to be replaced with something else? How could it, afterall geographical names don't change?

Mein Gott.. This place couldn't really be the ......... German Isles...!!!!!

Here we go now about the Great escape etc all over again...

shltter

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Here is a old map from 1852 titled 'The British Isles'

It consists of Ireland, Britain & the Isle of Man... but wait what is that body of water to the east of Britain called? Has that name fallen out of usage to be replaced with something else? How could it, afterall geographical names don't change?

Brilliant maybe we should hold onto the term British Isles as long as the German Ocean can make a comeback as well. LOL

corktina

well, there is a lot of Germanic ancestry in the "British" people......the Royal family for instance are German/Greek in descent.

there is a lot of Scots blood in the "irish" and the original Irish were driven to the extremities by the incomers...just as in "England" the Cornish and the Western Welsh and the Scots have the purest bloodlines.....it all depends on how far you want to go back in History and pre-history....

Navan Junction

corktina wrote:

it all depends on how far you want to go back in History and pre-history....

Oh it all depends on how far we want to go back into history or pre-history now, does it?:D

What happened to geography?:rolleyes: