Do you hide your Atheism?

legspin

aidan24326 wrote:

I really don't see what all the fuss is about with revealing that you're atheist. It's not like 'coming out' as gay or lesbian, which I'm sure is a difficult thing to do. I don't believe in God, so what. Mine is the rational belief, or rational lack of a belief in this case. Anyone has a problem with that, well it's their problem in all fairness. (fragile grandparents excepted). It's my view/opinion, and should be respected as such, in the same way that I respect other people's right to believe in the bearded man in the sky, or whatever else keeps them happy. So to those hiding their atheist views I say stop apologising for what you believe to be right. People of strong religious faith delude themselves with all kinds of absurd and ridiculous fantasies, yet I don't see too many of them apologising for their closed-minded worldview. So us non-believers most certainly shouldn't be apologetic for the fact that we've managed to use our own minds and think for ourselves rather than simply swallowing every ounce of snake-oil passed our way.

For the sort of folks that would have a problem dealing with atheists, they are more than likely to have the same problem with homosexuality. Indeed some of the more vehement spokespersons equate the two almost directly.

Dades

aidan24326 wrote:

So to those hiding their atheist views I say stop apologising for what you believe to be right.

I think you're missing the point.

People aren't running around to underground meetings using secret handshakes and avoiding the Inquisition.

From what I gather the views of most people here are known, they just reserve the right to spout them in certain situations, e.g. around old people or someone not of your views who has experienced a recent death of a love one.

Beruthiel

The Atheist wrote:

From what I gather the views of most people here are known, they just reserve the right to spout them in certain situations, e.g. around old people or someone not of your views who has experienced a recent death of a love one.

Indeed.
I don't think it manners for me to shove my views on others unless they invite them, just as I would wish for them not to shove theirs on me.

aidan24326

The Atheist wrote:

I think you're missing the point.

People aren't running around to underground meetings using secret handshakes and avoiding the Inquisition.

From what I gather the views of most people here are known, they just reserve the right to spout them in certain situations, e.g. around old people or someone not of your views who has experienced a recent death of a love one.

I haven't really missed the point. I totally agree about keeping your mouth shut in certain sensitive situations. That's just commonsense. And I did say in a previous post that I would not at this stage reveal my atheism to my grandmother as it would only cause her undue worry (although I hinted at it a good while back and I'd say she knows I'm not exactly a Ned Flanders churchgoing type). I was only responding to the tone of a few posts which seemed to be overly apologetic. e.g Byrno who said he'd be 'a bit cagey about it..' Why? That is my question.
Legspin suggested that the same people who have a problem with atheism are likely to be the same one's who have a prob with homosexuality. Well as far as I'm concerned for anyone who has a problem with either of those things, well it ain't my problem, it's theirs. And I would still maintain that revealing one's atheism is surely not in the same league of difficulty/initial awkwardness as revealing oneself to be gay/lesbian.

aidan24326

Beruthiel wrote:

Indeed.
I don't think it manners for me to shove my views on others unless they invite them, just as I would wish for them not to shove theirs on me.

Beruthiel, no-one's shoving their views on anyone, it's simply the right to express them in the same way that a religious person would express theirs. In a completely unaplogetic way, and without any thought or fear of 'offending' someone with religious beliefs. If they don't like it too bad (allowing for previous exceptional circumstances)

Beruthiel

aidan24326 wrote:

Beruthiel, no-one's shoving their views on anyone, it's simply the right to express them in the same way that a religious person would express theirs. In a completely unaplogetic way, and without any thought or fear of 'offending' someone with religious beliefs.

I don't disagree with that at all. As Dawkins said, we need to come out of the closet

TerrorFirmer

Rather then create a new thread I must ask what Atheists believe in after death?

As a fairly strict Catholic - and no, I do not attend mass, I cannot believe that some people are naive enough to apparently use mass attendance as a yardstick to test ones true faith, I've already seen it several times on casual viewing of this forum - It is hard at times to believe truly in everything that is offered forth as both an answer and explanation to questions.

Just being rational....but I would never consider myself an Atheist, ever.

that said though, I'm not a strict catholic either, I don't know why i actually said that initially, but I believe in god, but that does not necessarily mean he is the exlusive god of the christian faith...he is just god, and a god to every man woman and child on this earth. Or every living organism, rather.

Sangre

eh...nothing.

I don't see the reason why we have to 'believe' in anything after death.

TerrorFirmer

Well then as such surely you 'believe' in nothing?

Its not possible to truly not believe in anything....

Dave!

HavoK wrote:

Well then as such surely you 'believe' in nothing?

Its not possible to truly not believe in anything....

Are you playing with words now?

I 'believe' that after death there is nothing. Nada. Zilch. Nowt.

The whole concept of an afterlife to me fits too nicely into the 'fairytale' framework. As in, the kind of thing you tell a child when their grandparents die -- they're gone to heaven, you'll see them there when you're finished on the earth.

Don't you see why it is helpful for people to invent the concept of an afterlife? Do you not think that's it's a bit 'handy' to include in a religion? Do you have any logical reason for believing in an afterlife?

Sangre

HavoK wrote:

Well then as such surely you 'believe' in nothing?

Its not possible to truly not believe in anything....

be‧lieve  /bɪˈliv/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[bi-leev] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -lieved, -liev‧ing.
–verb (used without object)
1. to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so: Only if one believes in something can one act purposefully.


Yeah, I guess I do believe that its the end when we die. I don't stay up at night thinking about it, nor do I hope for something else as I don't believe (theres that word again) in self-delusional. Having beliefs can be a perfectly valid thing, nearly everyhing in this world is thoery and hypothesis, you can't 100% proof test everything.

My point was (before your clever word play) is that I am comfortable with my finite life, I don't need to 'believe' there is something more to make myself sleep at night.

Zombrex

I hope there is an after life, because quite frankly I don't like the idea of not existing. My brain tends to do a divide by zero error on that one.

But I can't say I believe in one since that would imply I have reasonable expectation that there is one. And I don't.

I think a large part of the reason why people embrace religions is they don't like admitting to themselves that they simply do not knowing certain things. Not just what happens after death, which scares a lot of people, but other questions like why are we here, what is moral and immoral, etc.

One of the scarest, yet ironically most truthful, things a person can do is admit to the things they don't know.

pH

HavoK wrote:

As a fairly strict Catholic - and no, I do not attend mass

So basically for no real reason that you can think of you believe in stuff that you make up yourself and it makes you happy and lets you sleep at night.

Well fair enough, it's called wishful thinking.

I'm convinced that I am God, but to fully experience the life of my creation, I chose to inhabit this mortal body for a lifetime but I blanked my memory of being God so this life will be realistic.

When I die I'll remember that I'm God and take my rightful place as Lord of creation.

Sangre

Well if there is an afterlife I hope its not one run by any recognised religion or their followers

Sangre

pH wrote:

When I die I'll remember that I'm God and take my rightful place as Lord of creation.

*shotgun*

TerrorFirmer

The idea of simply not existing, in my mind, is the most terrifying prospect of life.

My belief - again in a god, not one interpeted in a particular way does not really stem from that though, more just from the way I interpet the world in itself and everything around me, etc.

But anyway, thanks for the responses. I always find it highly interesting to hear the opinions of both other faiths and of course, non - that word now seems inescapible - non believers or rather belivers - theasurus anyone - in science etc.

But I have to say it's strange to think that in us group of posters here, there are several conflicting beliefs, and at the end of the day somebody - which obviously set aside that person, corresponds to an imcomphrendable amount of people - has led a life believing in something utterly false.

Shame really. But I am of course not afraid to admit, I do fear that as much as I believe in an above force, I also recognise the high likihood of my instincts becoming completely misguided and incorrect - which again leads solely to the fear mentioned above, fear of not knowing either way what lies beyond death. So I suppose its actually hard to measure my faith - how do you refer to someone who believes, but yet has his doubts. Idiot spring to mind.

Good post.

Sangre

Well its not like you'll know you're not existing.

TerrorFirmer

Funny how when I let such things get to me that very statement is what I say to myself.

It'll be like before I was born - it's not like I actually remember any existance before I came into being, and not only that but i certainly, not existing as such, did not worry about it so why should the other end be any different?

But...still, and all that!

Zillah

You still havn't explained why you believe in an afterlife or a God. So far all you've said is:

My belief - again in a god, not one interpeted in a particular way does not really stem from that though, more just from the way I interpet the world in itself and everything around me, etc.

"The way you interpret"? What way is that?

If you sit down and think about it, what are the reasons for your belief in a God? And if you can't come up with anything other than "Well it feels right" or "It just makes sense to me" then surely you should realise that those sensations are not a very good basis for decision making? If you used that rationale for anything else in life you'd be dead, bankrupt or insane or any number of horrible places that bad decision making can bring you.

Dave!

HavoK wrote:

The idea of simply not existing, in my mind, is the most terrifying prospect of life.

Do you see the relationship between this and believing in an afterlife...??? No...???

Zillah

DaveMcG wrote:

Do you see the relationship between this and believing in an afterlife...??? No...???

?????

I think he's saying that him liking the idea is a part of the reason. Here's hoping theres more to it.

Beruthiel

HavoK wrote:

The idea of simply not existing, in my mind, is the most terrifying prospect of life..

Think of it as the 'Big Sleep'.
You're not scared when sleeping are you?
I love my bed, I love sleeping in a warm snuggly douvet and soft pillow.
Imagine, you'll never have to get up again

TerrorFirmer

I'm not here in any case to try and form an argument as to why I do or should believe in what I do believe in. Why I believe, that's my business, why you think otherwise, is yours, regardless of how you go about it.

Yes it is inevitable that many choose to believe as a result of fear of the unknown, namely something as important as the question regarding what lies beyond dying.

I'm not scared when I'm sleeping, because my mind is at rest. Of course, in death, logically you can assume you couldn't be scared anyway given that your mind would be dead and cease to function, but still, if death were as easily accepted as to liken it to sleep it wouldn't be so bad Beruthiel

I always for some reason, have this horrific vision of death as leading to your undetectable conscious mind trapped in your final resting place - locked for eternity in your coffin...cremation for me, definately.

I suppose I am a man of many conflicting beliefs but I would still say that I believe in something beyond the realm of science and proven logic. Still though, again, one of us has to be wrong.

Funsterdelux

I hide mine in a wee box under my bed.

Beruthiel

For me, the scariest thing about death, is how it's going to happen.
A mail order death would be while sleeping, a long painful, drawn out one is what I fear the most. It's why I think euthanasia should be allowed in every country.
But that's a whole other debate....

Asiaprod

Beruthiel wrote:

For me, the scariest thing about death, is how it's going to happen.

The same for me. I do not fear death itself, don't particularly like the idea of going through it.

Tar.Aldarion

So how do people want to die? The more exciting the better

Havok wrote:

Yes it is inevitable that many choose to believe as a result of fear of the unknown

Not many would admit that now would they, or they would be admitting that do not really believe, they are just scared. In fact they may just say, it happens to others. I can fathom it but I could not lie to myself like that, eventually having a 'belief' in it to comfort myself.
I don't want to not exist but if it happens, fair enough, I'm going to enjoy the hell out of this life.

Dave!

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Not many would admit that now would they, or they would be admitting that do not really believe, they are just scared.

Havok just has!

HavoK wrote:

The idea of simply not existing, in my mind, is the most terrifying prospect of life.

Put 2 and 2 together and you get a good reason for believing in an afterlife, tbh.....

Or maybe I'm being too simplistic

Calibos

While a theist is not scared of death because he believes in heaven and I am not scared of death because I believe it will be like before I was born, I am scared of a painful death. Then again the existence of heaven does not mean a believer gets to skip a painful death either. Believing in heaven buys him nothing in this regard

I'm really open about my lack of belief. I willingly chat and debate with people about religion, spirituality, etc. In fact, I really enjoy that. Religion facinates me.
The only time I will hide my atheism is when I'm around my grandparents. They go to mass every day, pray regularly, are pioneers, have been to Lourdes and all the rest. They do not need to hear about their granddaughter's lack of faith. It could quite literally put them in their graves.
My mother gets upset when the atheist in me comes out at home so I try to keep that to a minimum in front of her too.
Otherwise, I'm an atheist and am fully comfortable with it around other people.

robindch

> I'm an atheist and am fully comfortable with it around other people.

Ah, but they're not comfortable with you -- lack of reciprocity again -- get used to it!

Anyway, if it all this one-sidedness gets a bit too much, do get a tee-shirt from these lads and wear it for sunday lunch sometime:

http://www.secularism.org.uk/shop.html?category=merchandise%2F939

...and they do ship to Ireland, despite saying they won't

elivsvonchiaing

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

So how do people want to die? The more exciting the better

I really don't want to die of a lingering illness. A heart attack still takes seconds...

In a nutshell I want to end my life without an "Aw fúck!" interval.

Ideally this would be a small meteorite in the back of the head.

God are you listening? this is what I want - capiche?

OK you ignored my prayers for several hundred lottery draws - so give it to me in the back of the head 'cmon man be a player for once! :rolleyes:

IceHawk

I see no reason to hide the fact. My parents are non-practising Catholics, who basically went to mass for weddings, funerals and Christmas eve. I still do all those things, to show support for the person/people, and because I like churches, so it's never really come up.

I don't feel the need to press my ideals onto other people, so it's never a contentious issue. I live with three practising Catholics, at least on of whom goes to mass every week. Religion/beliefs neer really come up. I don't see what's to hide.

Dades

Calibos wrote:

While a theist is not scared of death because he believes in heaven and I am not scared of death because I believe it will be like before I was born

I don't think anyone would be genuinely not afraid of death. When the time comes even the most devout believer/non-believer will start to doubt their convictions, given enough time to look death in the face.

I love this old chestnut:
"I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not shouting and screaming like the passengers in his car."

legspin

The Atheist wrote:

I don't think anyone would be genuinely not afraid of death. When the time comes even the most devout believer/non-believer will start to doubt their convictions, given enough time to look death in the face.

I love this old chestnut:
"I'd like to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather. Not shouting and screaming like the passengers in his car."

Or Woody Allen's I don't mind dying, I just don't want to be there when it happens

Zillah

As for death, its a bit of a non issue for me. I am going to die. There's no way out. And I really don't want to die, but theres nothing I can do about it and its not like I'll be aware of being dead or anything. So until its staring me in the face I'm just not going to think about it.

Although, I did have a bit of a revelation about the reality of not existing a few months ago. Wicknight says his brain does a divide by zero, well I've gotten past that, its quite tangible to me.

Mostly I hate the idea of everyone living their life a hundred years from now with their flying cars and genetic control and not even knowing I existed. Of course it won't matter then, but it matters now

Calibos

Funny you should mention the 'divide by Zero' thing again as I was only thinking of that again last night. I'm in the middle of the 'God Delusion' at the moment and obviously while reading, existence, non-existence, nothingness, why is there a universe, what would/could there 'Be' if there wasn't etc is at the forefront of my thoughts. Long ago I realised that I don't like the 'feeling' that these thoughts induce in my brain, the 'Divide by Zero' loop. Wrecks my head and I try to distract myself when I begin to ponder these questions too deeply. Unfortunately while reading the book one can't distract oneself from these questions because its part and parcel of the book.

On a sidenote, this is something that really perplexes me. I am sure that this very same 'Non existence of universe does not compute' train of thought is something that also wrecks the heads of the religious and their way of exiting the loop is to believe in God the creator. I can almost understand that (The deists) but what I can't understand are those that extrapolate from this and believe that Jesus christ, the saviour died on the cross for our sins, etc etc

Kinda like, "I can't get my head around the creation of a universe without a creator god, therefor I am going to believe in every word of a religion that developed from a cult based in a small coastal region of the eastern mediterranian circa 2000 years ago"

Scofflaw

Calibos wrote:

Funny you should mention the 'divide by Zero' thing again as I was only thinking of that again last night. I'm in the middle of the 'God Delusion' at the moment and obviously while reading, existence, non-existence, nothingness, why is there a universe, what would/could there 'Be' if there wasn't etc is at the forefront of my thoughts. Long ago I realised that I don't like the 'feeling' that these thoughts induce in my brain, the 'Divide by Zero' loop. Wrecks my head and I try to distract myself when I begin to ponder these questions too deeply. Unfortunately while reading the book one can't distract oneself from these questions because its part and parcel of the book.

I'm with Zillah on this one - the reality of my death is part of my everyday thinking. It has the disturbing side-effect of making funerals rather an affirmatory experience...

It is possible to find it depressing, but it's important to realise that the alternative is worse - not remembering that it's going to happen. It happens anyway.

cordially,
Scofflaw

aidan24326

TheAtheist wrote:

When the time comes even the most devout believer/non-believer will start to doubt their convictions, given enough time to look death in the face

This would be a bit hypocritical though. For an atheist to suddenly call for the priest as death approaches makes a mockery of everything he/she claimed to stand for prior to that time. Personally I don't believe there's an afterlife, I believe the very concept to be a non-runner but that's another day's work. And deathbed or not I don't think I'll be changing my mind on that one. None of us like the idea of not existing, but if death is the end of consciousness (as seems overwhelmingly likely) then what's there to fear? Not a whole lot when you think about it.

legspin wrote:

Or Woody Allen's I don't mind dying, I just don't want to be there when it happens

I'm with Woody on this one. Unlike most posters here I don't want to die in my sleep and not know. Obviously I don't want a long drawn-out painful death but at the same time I would like to know, to have some sense that the end was near. Can't say I'll be thrilled when the time comes, but there's a certain peace to be gained from accepting that this is the only existence you'll ever know. (though like Zillah I feel somewhat cheated that I won't be around in a hundred years to see what's going on).

aidan24326

HavoK wrote:

I always for some reason, have this horrific vision of death as leading to your undetectable conscious mind trapped in your final resting place - locked for eternity in your coffin...cremation for me, definately.

What a horrifying thought! :eek:

Damn you Havok

I always thought being buried alive would be the ultimate horror, but at least you'd die within a few hours (suffocation) to a few days (dehydration). But a trapped mind incapable of any escape must be THE ultimate nastiness. Interesting to think that the good loving god himself has such a place lined up for all us non-compliants.

robindch

> But a trapped mind incapable of any escape must be THE ultimate nastiness.

Already done. Try a dose of Iain Banks; Inversions, as far as I remember. He has one of his bad guys cuts the head off his nemesis, plants it in some Banksian nutri-gro, hangs it from the ceiling and uses it as a punch bag. He's a strange guy, is young Iain.

Zillah

aidan24326 wrote:

This would be a bit hypocritical though. For an atheist to suddenly call for the priest as death approaches makes a mockery of everything he/she claimed to stand for prior to that time.

Not really. Atheists don't really stand for anything. A lot of Atheists could summarise their position as "Naaahh".

Obviously I don't want a long drawn-out painful death but at the same time I would like to know, to have some sense that the end was near.

No way in hell. I want to vaporise when the boat beneath me explodes, or I want a ten ton chunk of glacier to drop on me out of the blue. If I never see it coming, and then I'm dead, from my point of view I never died...

Dades

aidan24326 wrote:

This would be a bit hypocritical though. For an atheist to suddenly call for the priest as death approaches makes a mockery of everything he/she claimed to stand for prior to that time.

Do people still call for priests? That's not likely. There's a big difference between that and lying there thinking. "Hmm. Maybe I am wrong, and there is an afterlife. Perhaps I've misjudged the situation".

An atheist is not afraid to admit he believes in nothing after death. I would think the closer you come to death the braver you have to be to continue to assert this against the lure of other, more positive beliefs.

aidan24326

Zillah wrote:

Not really. Atheists don't really stand for anything. A lot of Atheists could summarise their position as "Naaahh".

Not strictly true.

'Naaaahh' is the response of the apathetic & disinterested. As an atheist (in the 'lack of belief in a God' definition, not the outright 'there is no God') I believe in rationality and belief in any given proposition only in the presence of empirical demonstrable evidence. Given the lack of even a shred of evidence for any 'God' thus far proposed, I go with the 'do not believe' option. That is not 'standing for nothing'. That is standing for science and rationality and standing against the dumbing-down of the human mind as favoured by organised religions. Someone who says 'Naaahhh' may or not be an atheist by the definition given above, but unless they have given time and consideration to what that means then I'd be more inclined to say that they're not an 'anything'. They're just not interested.

No way in hell. I want to vaporise when the boat beneath me explodes, or I want a ten ton chunk of glacier to drop on me out of the blue. If I never see it coming, and then I'm dead, from my point of view I never died...

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one! So long as it's not too slow and drawn out, I suppose that's the main thing. After that it hardly matters, you're gone anyway. I just don't like the idea of having it snatched away from me in an instant. A little reflection and a short goodbye to myself would be nice.

Zillah

aidan24326 wrote:

Not strictly true.

Yes strictly true! By the meaning of the letters "Naaah" that I intended. "Naaah", or "No, I don't think so buddy" is as atheist as "I for one believe that any belief should be supported by empirical evidence and hence a belief in God is inherently irrational", just less eloquent.

'Naaaahh' is the response of the apathetic & disinterested.

No, "Uhhh" or "Meh" are responses of the apathetic or the disinterested. "Naaah" is firmly atheist.

How silly.

Dave!

Your original post was misleading, Zillah.

Zillah

DaveMcG wrote:

Your original post was misleading, Zillah.

I don't see how. But then again I wrote it so I probably wouldn't see how anyway.

robindch

> No, "Uhhh" or "Meh" are responses of the apathetic or the disinterested.

Minor correction: 'disinterested' means 'lacking self-interest'. It isn't a synonym for 'uninterested'. See here and here.

> How silly.

How prescient! I'll go back to my pedant's^Hpedants'^Hpedants bedtime book now.

atheist

No

Zillah

robindch wrote:

Minor correction: 'disinterested' means 'lacking self-interest'. It isn't a synonym for 'uninterested'. See here and here.

Well look at that! I've learned something.