How would you vote on the boycott?

Byrno

Yeah figured you'd be fed up saying it so I said it for you!

singingstranger

Ah here, cop on now. People having apathy and not voting AGAINST a boycott does not mean that they OPPOSE it. That's the concept of a referendum - anyone who proactively wants something to be a certain way can vote in it, and anyone who doesn't care either way doesn't express an opinion. You can't just assume that because 12% or so of the student body voted anti-Coke in the second referendum that 88% opposed it. 9% of the students expressed pro-Coke and the other 79% didn't vote, which in effect means they couldn't care less. So the idea of having an 88% pro-Coke body goes out the window.

Also, in fairness, you can't take a Boards poll to be perfectly representative of the UCD populace. Take http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054895202 as your example...

Vainglory

Royale with Cheese wrote:

If everyone was forced to vote in the boycott, even 50% of the students were forced to make a decision one way or the other... the ban would be lifted.

If my aunt had balls then she'd be my uncle, blah blah.

themole

singingstranger wrote:

Ah here, cop on now. People having apathy and not voting AGAINST a boycott does not mean that they OPPOSE it. That's the concept of a referendum - anyone who proactively wants something to be a certain way can vote in it, and anyone who doesn't care either way doesn't express an opinion.

True enough.

One point i would like to make is that when you have a referendum on a topic which
A) does not affect a lot of people (can still buy coke elsewhere on campus), and
which a lot of people do not care about (the turnout was low, circa 4500 out of lots of students, 18,000 maybe ?? who could vote)

You cannot say that the view is that or a majority of the people, but you can still enforce the ban.

I drink coke. I voted against the ban in the first referendum. I didn't bother voting in the second referendum. Why not? I am in the physics building, there are coke vending machines in the science building, so access wasn't a problem. Also I didn't really care.

What i am saying, dunno if anyone else is saying the same as me is this.
A referendum is a tool to arrive at a decision. It is not a means of gauging public opinion.

panda100

Royale with Cheese wrote:

Hide behind your democracy if you want.

To me Royale with cheese sums up everything in this thread with that statement. As someone who strongly believes in human rights and justice for everyone whatever their creed or colour,I am disgusted with the laissez faire attitude of those who are pro 'ban' on this forum.

Vainglory wrote:

It's not my fault that nobody feels strongly enough about it to want to change it.

Bryrno wrote:

well tough luck on them if they disagree with the outcome.

boneless wrote:

As I stated above, if people are really concerned they should go through the proper proceedures to get the decision reversed.

For me these quotes highlight what is totally wrong with the coke and nestle bans in UCD. It shows completely the wrong attitude to the spirit of the bans in the first place and shows excatly why the bans in UCD and worldwide have been a flop.
Lets look at the nestle ban as an example.UCD was one of the first to ban nestle from its shelves and many other universities followed suit.
15years on,how many other universities still hold this ban?very few.
Is nestle still a mulitmillion coporation making millions? yes.
Is it still abusing people in the third world?Yes they just do it more discreetly know.
From this I cant see how anyone with any foresight or vision would have thought a coke ban in UCD and other universities would prove effective.The major problem with those who implemented the coke ban was they thought keeping it off the su shelves shops would solve everything.
Did they follow up with a campaign to put pressure on the college authorities to remove it from vending machines? No.
Did they follow up the referendum with any information informing students why banning coke is the right thing to do? Well apart from the odd tribune article with the same old rhetoric theres been absoloutly no positive campaigning on behalf of the coke ban.
Did they have the foresight to come up with a new alternative to coke in the SU shops? What about mecca cola that tastes exactly the same as coke yet they give 10% of their net profits to palestinian charities and various projects?
A referendum is easy.You spend a good thousand euro of students money,collect a few signatures, get people to vote but where in the end does it get your campaign for human rights? It raises individuals profiles but as a whole this is what it results in:

fish-head wrote:

You know, I really don't give a flaming bollock. I know I won't be buying either any time soon, but I don't want to stop other people. It's their own decision

themole wrote:

I didn't bother voting in the second referendum. Why not? I am in the physics building, there are coke vending machines in the science building, so access wasn't a problem. Also I didn't really care

As someone who doesnt buy coke or nestle even I can see that this ban has failed. For me workers rights are important and thats why I got involved in the fairtrade and not the coke campiagn. Anyone with a bit of hindsight who saw how ineffective the nestle ban was/is could see the coke ban will lead ultimatly nowhere. Coke in Columbia may have eased their repression of Sinaltrainal and have made some concessions,but with apathy to the coke campaign already huge in UCD and media coverage fallen to non existent its easy to see the ban has failed for the outcome you wanted.
With the fair trade campaign we are looking at the bigger picture so that workers in columbia dont have to forced into sweat shops and factories where they fear for their lives. They can make an honest living on their own or with factory owners working with the fair trade corporation. I really think the coke campaigners(and left wing in general) could learn a huge lesson of the fair trade campaigners in UCD.It took real effort,real work and time over a few years to make sure that all UCD ran outlets buy in fairtrade tea and coffee.

If the fairtrade campaign had failed I would have been the first to admit that it had and would have changed my tactics to get students to see that fairtrade IS worthwhile and can make a differnece. I most certainly would not have the attitude that those in favour of the ban have now saying 'tough luck if you dont lkike the ban and if you dont like the ban do something about it'. Do they not see this gets their campain absolutley no where?They should be focussing on positive feedback on what the coke ban is achieving in Columbia.Instead their attitude is a we got the ban passed so what ya gonna do about it.It shows an extremly lazy attitude of the pro-coke ban campaigners. If they felt as stronlgy as those involevd with the fair trade campaign and worked as hard as we did last year did they would have got results by know.

themole

I have a question.
Is fairtrade coffee and tea in all or most of the ucd outlets?

I have seen a sign in 911 saying they use fairtrade, but i can't remember seeing similar sign anywhere else.

Cheers

Byrno

Panda, I love the way you take the quotes there out of context. What I was saying was that while apathy needs to be combated and that there is a lot that could be done, people need to take responsibility for their own apathy too.

Also on the ban what a lot of posters are saying is that it is not up to them to bring another referendum if they still believe in the ban. It is up to those who disagree/think it has failed to bring another referendum.

panda100 wrote:

Did they follow up with a campaign to put pressure on the college authorities to remove it from vending machines? No.

If this was done it would mean that people's right to choose would be eliminated. Students have the right not to adhere to the ban if they like. You and I may disagree with them but then it is our responsibility to convince them otherwise if we wish. The students voted to remove Coke products from the SU shops, not to completely remove it from campus. If this was to be done there would most likely have to be another referendum.

panda100 wrote:

Did they follow up the referendum with any information informing students why banning coke is the right thing to do? Well apart from the odd tribune article with the same old rhetoric theres been absoloutly no positive campaigning on behalf of the coke ban.

If you look at the last three Freshers Guides/Student Survival Guides you will see that there are articles on the Coke bans. Also in this years guide there are articles on Néstle and Fair Trade. Also in the Observer and the Tribune there were articles on the bans. What people then need to do is go out and read these. There isn't much else that the SU can do, if they do much more people will start accusing the officers of not focusing on student issues.

panda100

Byrno, If you feel that the coke boycott is effective and improving workers rights in Columbia then thats great. All I know is that if I was behind the coke campaign I wouldnt be pleased with the way it was going at all. Huge apathy towards the ban, cokes profits untouched,A few measly articles in two newspapers about it ,coke still widely available on campus,columbian factory workers rights unchanged. But if you think the referendum is still a success then thats ok.All I know is that id be changing my tactics now cos this coke ban isnt helping anyone.


Are the quotes out of context? Thats all I keep hearing on this thread is if you dont like the ban then get a referendum to change it and/or if you didnt vote then its not your right to complain.If you were really intrested in the human rights issues here you wouldnt be saying that. You would be trying to convice students why the ban is effective. And I dont mean by writing an article every now and again written by the same bloke in the tribune. Poster up beside the coke vending machines or leaflets??

singingstranger

themole wrote:

I have a question.
Is fairtrade coffee and tea in all or most of the ucd outlets?

I have seen a sign in 911 saying they use fairtrade, but i can't remember seeing similar sign anywhere else.

If I remember correctly, every outlet on campus has gone Fairtrade now, after a UCDSU lobby run by Deputy Dave last year. I recall there being one place that held out for a while but which was due to convert or offer a Fairtrade option at some point, I can't recall which it was or whether it kept holding out but last I heard I think everywhere offered a Fairtrade option.

Vainglory

Panda, I was just wondering how you reconcile your opinion here..

panda100 wrote:

Im undecided really but I do think ultimatly at the end of the day students should have the choice to buy whatever they want

With your opinion here.

panda100 wrote:

..if I was behind the coke campaign I wouldnt be pleased with the way it was going at all...coke still widely available on campus.

panda100

Does it matter what I think?Surely you should be more concerned about the state of disintrest and oblivious too the coke campaign among the student body.Do you not want the coke ban to be a success?Do you think the referendum and the banning of coke from su shops was a big success?

panda100

edit:same post twice doh!

panda100

singingstranger wrote:

If I remember correctly, every outlet on campus has gone Fairtrade now, after a UCDSU lobby run by Deputy Dave last year. .

It was run by world aid soc.The union only put there name to it though Dave was and is still very helpfull. Up to Christmas it was me,two guys from world aid soc and some bloke from Australia. After that the union started to get invoved a bit but THere was definaly no ucdsu lobby

Dinxminx

Every little helps. I agree with Kaptain Red Eye, Singing Stranger *curtseys*, and Young Siward.

Let the bans stand.

Vainglory

panda100 wrote:

Does it matter what I think?Surely you should be more concerned about the state of disintrest and oblivious too the coke campaign among the student body.Do you not want the coke ban to be a success?Do you think the referendum and the banning of coke from su shops was a big success?

Well, with respect, it does matter what you think if you're portraying two diametrically opposed views on the boycott and issues surrounding it, while simultaneously condemning it outright for its "failure".

I assume you think that it matters what you think too, otherwise you wouldn't be posting so extensively on the matter every time it's brought up.

UCD was the first university students' union to stop stocking Coke in the world. Since then, many have followed. Many other organisations, including political parties, trade unions and teaching unions, have also affirmed their support for the boycott and the campaign. The very fact that we are discussing this now means that as a result, awareness has increased about Coke's human rights violations both in Columbia and India. You must view me as a very stupid person if you believe that *I* think the boycott of Coke will singlehandedly bring down one of the largest multinational corporations in the world. That is not the realistic aim of the boycott.

You and your ilk consistently harp on about how oblivious everyone is to the boycott, while pointing at incredibly scientific methods such as the poll on this thread to illustrate how the boycott would not be supported today. If you use boards.ie evidence to back your claims about a lack of support for the boycott, why can't I use it for evidence to support my claim that students aren't totally oblivious? It's got over 100 replies already, after all. The debate has been heated and extensive. Nobody cares? People on boards.ie obviously do, whether it's for or against.

panda100

As I said if you think this coke ban is improving the situation in Columbia then fair play to you.
If I felt as passionatly as you guys do about the ban then I would feel that I have failed on my mission to promote why the coke and nestle boycotts are so important.
The ban is publicised I agree, But not positively at all.It was up to the pro-ban campaigners to do that and they didnt so what could have been a very effective campaign with the whole student body getting behind it,has flopped.But if you can go to sleep at night knowing that three shops in Ireland arent stocking Coke and still fell that the referendum had been a sucess then all credit to ya.Even if it does catch on in other univerities and shops which its very slow to do then all you have to look at is the nestle boycott to see where your 'campaign' is heading.

I would like to have seen the coke boycott be a sucess so my posts really arent trying to put anyone down or anything. Maybe the pro-ban people will take my comments on boards so they are no longer harping on about the referenndum but actually trying to change peoples minds toward the coke ban and telling us why it is a success. More posts like this' The very fact that we are discussing this now means that as a result, awareness has increased about Coke's human rights violations both in Columbia and India.' and less of the 'well if you dont like the coke referendum do something about it or tough luck'.

Vainglory

panda100 wrote:

As I said if you think this coke ban is improving the situation in Columbia then fair play to you.
If I felt as passionatly as you guys do about the ban then I would feel that I have failed on my mission to promote why the coke and nestle boycotts are so important.
The ban is publicised I agree, But not positively at all.It was up to the pro-ban campaigners to do that and they didnt so what could have been a very effective campaign with the whole student body getting behind it,has flopped.But if you can go to sleep at night knowing that three shops in Ireland arent stocking Coke and still fell that the referendum had been a sucess then all credit to ya.Even if it does catch on in other univerities and shops which its very slow to do then all you have to look at is the nestle boycott to see where your 'campaign' is heading.

I would like to have seen the coke boycott be a sucess so my posts really arent trying to put anyone down or anything. Maybe the pro-ban people will take my comments on boards so they are no longer harping on about the referenndum but actually trying to change peoples minds toward the coke ban and telling us why it is a success. More posts like this' The very fact that we are discussing this now means that as a result, awareness has increased about Coke's human rights violations both in Columbia and India.' and less of the 'well if you dont like the coke referendum do something about it or tough luck'.

Sigh.

I don't harp on about the referendum. I only defend its legitamacy as a tool of deciding what products we stock in our shops when other people denounce it as "undemocratic", "forcing other people to act how we want" or "irrelevant", as has been done on this thread. Note that I didn't bring the subject up in the first place.

What I DO do, is continue the campaign to raise awareness about the Coke issues in Columbia and India. Labour Youth had an extremely well attended public meeting in the Teacher's Club during the summer at which activists who had been to Columbia spoke about their experiences, and then divided into groups to discuss ways of furthering the campaign. For tangible results of actions embarked upon with the aim of furthering the campaign and increasing awareness, keep an eye on major sporting events coming up soon. Well attended public meetings have also been held in UCD, alongside informative articles in the Fresher's Guide and the papers. And what exactly is "measly" about them? Is it not a good idea to use the college media to spread the message? I gaurantee that you would be criticising us if we weren't.

I don't toss and turn at night worrying about how effective the boycott is. What evidence do you have for saying that "very few" universities still boycott Coke? In the last year alone both USI and the national student organisation in the UK have expressed support for the boycott. And incidentally, Coca-Cola's share price has fallen from $51 to $41 in the past few years..Just an aside.

The large US unions that have called for a boycott of Coke products include the Service Employees International Union, the AFL-CIO, the American Postal Workers Union, the International Longshore and Warehouse Union and the California Federation of Teachers. The Communications Workers of America and the American Postal Workers Union have also passed resolutions supporting a boycott and divestment campaign targeting Coke's chief financial ally, Suntrust Banks. On this side of the Atlantic, Unison, the largest union in the UK, and the Northern Ireland Public Service Association, the largest union in Northern Ireland, have both called for boycotts, along with the USI, TUI and ASTI at home.

http://www.killercoke.org/britishupdate.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1004598,00.html

[/sarcasm] Yes, CLEARLY, we are only going backwards....[/sarcasm]

panda100

Well done vainglory,it took you two years but finally us students know wether the coke boycott is being effective! Why have students been kept in the dark about this and dont really have a clue whats going on? More of this info for the students please. Posters saying the good work the ban has done instead of coming on here complaining when people are complaining about the coke ban. If students knew that the coke ban was getting results maybe their would be less complaints about it.
One meeting orgainsed by labour youth and two articles in the tribune and one in the freshers guide is measly compared to how much money was spent on the literature for the two referendums. Surely more leaflets and posters should have been circulated?You cant inundate us with information for two weeks during the referendum and then leave it at that.No wonder people got pissed off at the anti coke campaigners.They just used us for our vote and then just left it at that.
Anyways chin up vainglory my fingers are crossed for the coke campaign and hoping it wont go down the tubes like the nestle one.

Vainglory

panda100 wrote:

Well done vainglory,it took you two years but finally us students know wether the coke boycott is being effective! Why have students been kept in the dark about this and dont really have a clue whats going on? More of this info for the students please. Posters saying the good work the ban has done instead of coming on here complaining when people are complaining about the coke ban. If students knew that the coke ban was getting results maybe their would be less complaints about it.
One meeting orgainsed by labour youth and two articles in the tribune and one in the freshers guide is measly compared to how much money was spent on the literature for the two referendums. Surely more leaflets and posters should have been circulated?You cant inundate us with information for two weeks during the referendum and then leave it at that.No wonder people got pissed off at the anti coke campaigners.They just used us for our vote and then just left it at that.
Anyways chin up vainglory my fingers are crossed for the coke campaign and hoping it wont go down the tubes like the nestle one.

Why do you claim, baselessly, that very few universities still support the boycott and then retract your claim as soon as I point out that your claim is false? Surely, if you don't KNOW, then it would be more helpful to the boycott to say that you don't know, rather than stating categorically that you DO know, and giving false information?

Do you know how much money was spent on the referenda materials, or are you just guessing? The first (and only) referendum initiated by the pro-boycott side involved referenda materials for that side costing a max of 450 euro. Other costs are incidental to the running of a referendum and unrelated to material.

Labour Youth (for example) has tons of Killer Coke leaflets, loads of T Shirts, and for the Connolly Festival (the meeting I mentioned) a full colour print run of posters were done which were displayed all over town and college campuses. Our stand during Freshers' Week had Killer Coke information all over it, and many students approached us to discuss it during the week.

Perhaps you should stop being so passive. If you support the boycott (and I can't really tell if you do or not due to your conflicting posts) then perhaps you should take the time to inform yourself a bit about the current situation before making incorrect and baseless claims about its success or otherwise on public message boards. You don't come to college to be spoon fed either academically, socially or politically.

I really don't know why you tell me to "keep my chin up". The only thing I can guess at is that it is some vague attempt at being patronising.

themole

A bit of searching on the UCDSU website does show up some coke stuff.

But i think there should be some info linked to in the campaigns section of the website. Might make it more accessible.

I have emailed the su email address with this suggestion.

Vainglory

Use "deputy.president@ucd.ie" instead of the generic one. His name is Dave.

themole

Hi Liam yeah no problem, I just asked our designer to do it, so he should have that up over the next few days. Its basically gonna be the same info that was in the Student Survival Guide.

---

Original Message

---

From: Liam McDermott
To: Deputy.President@ucd.ie
Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 6:17 PM

Hi.

Could you provide some links to info on the coke ban in the campaigns section of the ucdsu website?

I did find some stuff through the search in newswire, but I think this info would be made more accessible by providing it, or a link to it, in the campaigns section.

Cheers

That was quick.

beanyb

themole wrote:

I have a question.
Is fairtrade coffee and tea in all or most of the ucd outlets?

I have seen a sign in 911 saying they use fairtrade, but i can't remember seeing similar sign anywhere else.

Cheers

Thanks Panda, I died a little inside when I saw the SU being given credit for a World Aid Campaign. I'm not saying they didnt help because Dave has been brilliant, but it was and still is a World Aid Soc campaign with Sinead Monaghan in particular doing a hell of a lot of work on it with very little credit!

Anyhoo, to answer themoles question-
All SU outlets are 100% fairtrade - this includes all the shops, the bars and cafe brava in the student centre. They have quite a few signs around about it.

All insomnia's coffee is fairtrade though that was a decision made by the company and was above us. Though we did start them on the road by making them get a fair trade option.

911 have a sign, yes. But they have no right to have it up. Shops are only granted Fair Trade signs when they are FULLY fair trade. In 911 you have to ask for fair trade coffee and they make you pay extra for it. I was at a fair trade ireland conference a week or so ago and the staff said that they consider offering an option to be a joke and 911 have no right to be displaying the sign. It's misleading and we're working on having it taken down.

Tea in the arts cafe is fair trade and some of the coffee is, i'm not sure exactly which it is though. Whichever is the bulk brew coffee isnt because java republic dont offer it.

So to simplify it, if you want to be sure what you're drinking is fair trade go to the SU or Insomnia. If you're somewhere else ASK FOR IT. Letting cafes know people are looking for it is a very important part of the campaign.

I think i said most of this in my earlier post... but nobody seemed to read it!

Young Siward

humbert wrote:

10%, what a joke.

Absolutely agree, which makes a mockery of the recent SU centre vote (which staggered just over that line) - with financial implications for all students, but that's a conversation for another time

singingstranger

Sorry if I gave the impression that the SU were completely in control of the Fairtrade thingy. Obviously World Aid and especially Sinead were all over the place getting stuff nailed down too.

Het-Field

When I voted in 2003 I voted against the boycott. During my stay in college i became anti coca cola, but in recent months I have returned to my original stance.

-Firstly Coca Cola have been exonerated in several cases in relation to the killings. It has been established in Court (several times) that Coca Cola have not been guilty of any wrong doing.

Secondly I believe it is an easy attack on the free market by the Irish left. Coca Cola is a major player in the corporate world, and the killings were useful to their purpose

Third, givent that the incident took place so far away (in Colombia) it is easy for the facts to become very distorted. Until I get a clean and crisp account of what happened, I wont return to my post 2003 stance on the matter.

If I was given concrete evidence that Coca Cola played God and took lives, I would stop drinking their products immediatly. But the has been no concice account, and Courts have exonerated Coca Cola, So

Het-Field

Yeah, and the Nestle ban should be overturned. Its out of date and does not represent students views. If the students voted again ad banned Nestle I say OK, but i dont think the mandate is democratic anymore

themole

beanyb wrote:

911 have a sign, yes. But they have no right to have it up. Shops are only granted Fair Trade signs when they are FULLY fair trade. In 911 you have to ask for fair trade coffee and they make you pay extra for it. I was at a fair trade ireland conference a week or so ago and the staff said that they consider offering an option to be a joke and 911 have no right to be displaying the sign. It's misleading and we're working on having it taken down.

Booooo.
It is indeed misleading. I presumed the coffee was fair trade because of the sign.
Their coffee is muck anyway, only go there when everything else is close. Or i'm right beside it and feeling lazy.

Any ideas if O'Briens is fair trade?
Its the closest and best coffee near me. (the new obirens)

Vainglory

Het-Field wrote:

If I was given concrete evidence that Coca Cola played God and took lives, I would stop drinking their products immediatly. But the has been no concice account, and Courts have exonerated Coca Cola, So

Interesting that you mention God.

As someone known for your own strong convictions of the existence of God, I'm sure you will now be able to point me towards the "concrete evidence" that supports your belief.

*waits*

panda100

Vainglory wrote:

I really don't know why you tell me to "keep my chin up". The only thing I can guess at is that it is some vague attempt at being patronising.

Absolutely no patronising intended there vainglory, sorry bout that:) It was meant to mean good luck with getting Columbian workers a fair deal.
Looking forward to seeing more coke meetings on campus,post them up here so we now about them.
oh by the way do you know how much the second referendum cost? Thanks!

EDIT TO SAY:Good work the mole in getting the su to put up some stuff on the website. That'd be a good start.Might mention it at council to do a coke week,run by the union and not a political party, explaining bout the whole boycott and why its effective etc.