Should Bertie Ahern Resign over the payments (part two)

skearon

Lennoxschips wrote:

i was referring to the 40,000 IRP which started this whole controversy. he took it as a gift (seeing as he never repaid any installments or interest untill pressurised into doing so last week) and should have declared this to the tax authorities.

The actually amount was £39,000, but apart from that, it is your opinion he took it as a gift, its not fact, he and the various doners have said it was a loan, some have even confirmed he attempted on a number of occasions to repay them.

A loan is not liable for tax, nor is there any period in time defined in law, by which a loan and its interest has to be paid back.

It is clear that no matter what the Taoiseach says, some posters here will automatically disbelieve him, regardless of the facts and what has been, and can be proved.

Surely he, like anyone else, is assumed to be innocent until proven otherwise?

I've split the last post from the old manuscript off to create this shiny new thread in time for the Dáil debate on the payments that starts at 4.15pm

flamingo

regardless of the technicalities of whether or not it was a loan, gift or otherwise, the ethical question cannot be skirted so easily. Bertie himself clearly believed it was wrong for others to accept payment, so howcome the double standard?
shame on the PDs as well for chickening out of taking a stand - so much for being there to police FF.
but the one thing that galls me above all else is the fact that Bertie apparently sees nothing wrong in appointing friends to important lucrative positions purely because they are friends. Unacceptable.

PH01

No he shouldn't.

Lennoxschips

that for me is the biggest problem. surely the people running our ports and our airlines should be people with experience in these fields, and not just friends of bertie's?

Dave!

Bertie's statement is live on RTE 1 (TV) now

pete

DaveMcG wrote:

Bertie's statement is live on RTE 1 (TV) now

so far it looks like just another repeat

Dave!

Speech finished, question time now.

Inda is first!

Dave!

Lots of comparisons with Haughey and co.... "New FF has resurrected old FF"

Agent Smith

wow.... enda can be a beast when hes angry

lostexpectation

interesting quote from berite via Enda where bertie said to dobson that he refused a fundraising function in DUblin cos he himself said even thought they may have been friends it would be political reason not private.

lostexpectation

I don't know why the opposition takes so long on the rhetorical and polemic, about spending about 1 minutes of his five going on about what year they both entered the dail.

greg678

lostexpectation wrote:

I don't know why the opposition takes so long on the rhetorical and polemic, about spending about 1 minutes of his five going on about what year they both entered the dail.

So they can say "Ohh we did not have enough time to ask him questions":rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Dave!

Trevor Sargent suggested resigning as being "the decent thing to do".

Sinn Féin speaking now

Agent Smith

heres the Beast That is Joe Higgins...

ISAW

flamingo wrote:

regardless of the technicalities of whether or not it was a loan, gift or otherwise, the ethical question cannot be skirted so easily. Bertie himself clearly believed it was wrong for others to accept payment, so howcome the double standard?

But that is not what he said he believed. He quoted minister fitzgerald (from Labour in the Rainbow government I think) and others in Seanad and Dail debates who stated that it was alright to take money for personal legal and health expences. Bertie added "family" reasons. He didnt think it was wrong then and he does not see it as wrong now. But he does accept that it looks bad and in hindsight knowing what he does now that nobody should do it so he regrets he did it and he was "in error" in his judgement to accept the money but that he broke no ethics code or any law.

shame on the PDs as well for chickening out of taking a stand - so much for being there to police FF.

What? so they should take time off the opposition? Or they should come out against the other government party? that WOULD be double standards now wouldnt it?

but the one thing that galls me above all else is the fact that Bertie apparently sees nothing wrong in appointing friends to important lucrative positions purely because they are friends. Unacceptable.

As far as I know Labour FG etc. had at least five times the amount of advisors in the Taoiseachs office. Do you really believe these people in the Labour/FG/WP administration were all personal friends of Bertie?

ISAW

lostexpectation wrote:

interesting quote from berite via Enda where bertie said to dobson that he refused a fundraising function in DUblin cos he himself said even thought they may have been friends it would be political reason not private.

Yes because appearing as a minister/Taoiseach was using his office. But he pointed out that he was asked to speak to people he had visited several times from several Irish cultural and personal interests in Manchester not to raise funds. He was also there not on govertnment money and not using governmant facilities and not having any speech written by civil servants. So the situations were different. One is helping someone out of personal problems the other is giving someone representing the state and NOt themselves money for political contributions.

ISAW

ISAW wrote:

Yes because appearing as a minister/Taoiseach was using his office. .... One is helping someone out of personal problems the other is giving someone representing the state and NOt themselves money for political contributions.

Inda Kenya is now saying that one can not separate public office from private people and that the people in Manchester came to see the Minister of finance and not Bertie Ahern. But I think Bertie may have hit on an answer already when he quoted Eithne? (was it) fitzgerald who accepted in the debate on the "Ethics in Public Office Bill" that personal moneys could be accepted.

Sgt. Sensible

I can't follow what's going on from here. Can someone post up what Higgins says please? He is the opposition. It's a shame he's a Trot.

ISAW

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

I can't follow what's going on from here. Can someone post up what Higgins says please? He is the opposition. It's a shame he's a Trot.

I only caught the end of him. He mentioned the culture of Big Business being close to politics by donations and drew the PDs in to that.

But that could just as easily be applied to FG or Labour.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=6248&&CatID=60

for the live deabte

If you cant get it I suggest you wait and get the full record.

higgins was excelent as usual in his caustic yet amusing speech.

The biggest revelation today seems to be that the cheque from O'Connor was a bank of Ireland draft and not drawn on an NCB account.

Sgt. Sensible

ISAW wrote:

I only caught the end of him. He mentioned the culture of Big Business being close to politics by donations and drew the PDs in to that.

But that could just as easily be applied to FG or Labour.

http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=6248&&CatID=60

for the live deabte

If you cant get it I suggest you wait and get the full record.

Cheers, got it working.

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote:

higgins was excelent as usual in his caustic yet amusing speech.

The biggest revelation today seems to be that the cheque from O'Connor was a bank of Ireland draft and not drawn on an NCB account.

Your jumping to conclusions there Ahern said that it was a bank draft and that a bank draft does not say what account it is drawn from
Ahern never denied it was NCB money he denied it was an NCB company cheque

ISAW

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

Cheers, got it working.

some classic Bertieisms:

"quid per quo" for "quid pro quo"

and "revelent" for "relevant"

But:
did he reveal a "quid" per quo? I would have to say NO.

Sgt. Sensible

Liz O'Donnell's outfit is class.

Voipjunkie

Voipjunkie wrote:

Your jumping to conclusions there Ahern said that it was a bank draft and that a bank draft does not say what account it is drawn from
Ahern never denied it was NCB money he denied it was an NCB company cheque

I find it funny that I should be accused of jumping to conclusions...
Can I ask what evidence you have that it is money that came from NCB?

I mean royally throughout this discussion it was supposed to be a company cheque,now we're told as a matter of fact it wasnt.

constitutionus

more holes in it than a cullender, cheques are now drafts? it turns out he didnt speak for 4 hours like he said previously and the "whip around" was actually given to him by one man at the end of the night who's conviently dead and he cant for sure know who the donnors were?(thats two dead guys now ,how the hell many times can this happen to one man, im starting to think FF are topping guys who can finger the taoiseach:) ).

i must admint to being in shock. im no FG supporter but enda kenny was on a stormer here, hammering home quite succiently that you dont stop being minister for finance when it suits you. stating when you get the seal of office thats it. and drawing uncomfortable parallels with ray burke who's statement in the dail was eerily reminiscent of berties today

rabbite gave a decent showing, accounting why the opposition restrained itself till today but sargent and Ocaombhlain (spl?) were remarkably strong. the former actually saying bertie should resign and the latter illustrating FFs disasterous relationship with big business on the country. incidentally the sinn fein leader was the only guy the backbenchers shouted down, why was that? getting too close to the mark lads?

joe higgins picked up on this with a lovely barb at them stating how nice it was that they all recovered from the bout of laryngitis that afflicted them the last week or so but he too was the target of back bench comments one of which, unheard by us but caught by one of joes collegues whom told him to ignore it, stopped him in his tracks. once more he points out what happend to the protesters in mayo (which if you havent heard the gardai, all 170 of them forcibly removed em and hospitalised two of em. thats 300 times the amount needed on basic national coverage. democracy how are ya) and neatly turning macdowels lampost climbing against him in a colourful turn that rings disturbingly true.


the most obvious image of this debate was the taoiseach himself, looking like thunder and keeping head literally down so as to avoid the cameras aimed at him. getting darker and darker as the debate went on till he looked almost Nixon like at one stage

the one and only truly satisfying comment from bertie was a much belated apology to his family and the irish people. such a pity the guy who brought them into this in the first place and only commented on by the taoiseach and his ministers, a fact pointed out by several of the opposition, didnt have the decency to leave them out of it from the start

the taoiseachs answers werent good enough and further convoluted the issue. this is a lame duck taoiseach now and if the opposition can keep up the fire on dislpay when going to the polls, he'll be an ex taoiseach too

constitutionus

constitutionus wrote:

cheques are now drafts?

A draft is a cheque

it turns out he didnt speak for 4 hours like he said previously and the "whip around" was actually given to him by one man at the end of the night who's conviently dead and he cant for sure know who the donnors were?(thats two dead guys now ,how the hell many times can this happen to one man, im starting to think FF are topping guys who can finger the taoiseach:) ).

Uhm,I dunno natural causes? Did you expect 25 people to be carrying the bag of cash and cheques? It wasnt that heavy.

i must admint to being in shock. im no FG supporter but enda kenny was on a stormer here, hammering home quite succiently that you dont stop being minister for finance when it suits you. stating when you get the seal of office thats it. and drawing uncomfortable parallels with ray burke who's statement in the dail was eerily reminiscent of berties today

Yeah he was quite good.

incidentally the sinn fein leader was the only guy the backbenchers shouted down, why was that? getting too close to the mark lads?

No I'd say it was to do with his own hypocrisy probably.

joe higgins picked up on this with a lovely barb at them stating how nice it was that they all recovered from the bout of laryngitis that afflicted them the last week or so but he too was the target of back bench comments one of which, unheard by us but caught by one of joes collegues whom told him to ignore it, stopped him in his tracks. once more he points out what happend to the protesters in mayo (which if you havent heard the gardai, all 170 of them forcibly removed em and hospitalised two of em. thats 300 times the amount needed on basic national coverage. democracy how are ya) and neatly turning macdowels lampost climbing against him in a colourful turn that rings disturbingly true.

And this has exactly what to do with the Bertie payments?

Heinrich

When Joe Soap takes out a loan he has to sign terms and conditions. They will include the time lapse and interest due etc.

Now Bertie went and did this with AIB and was subsequently "baled out" with a loan to pay the AIB loan. He takes 13 years to pay back this loan and only when the **** hits the fan. He calculates the interest at 5% comp[ound. Is this the going rate?

Then the Manchester bit...

He goes to see Man United and attend dinners, one of which there was a whip around netting 8000 sterling. Was he accompanied by the standard bodyguard accredited to a Minister?

He can't remember the people who were at a dinner atr which he netted 8000 sterling. Poor memory for a state leader.

Spin, spin, spin, spin, spin, spin, spin, spin, spin, spin, spin, spin, spin, spin, spin,

I'm dizzy:mad:

lostexpectation

he said he did the right thing by putting the manchester payments in the public realm, no sorry 13 years too late,


Can he really not name the people in manchester, can nobody name the ones that were definitly there. Does Tom Kitt have better memory? I havn't see very many interviews with the other Dublin payees, only two so far...

gandalf

Well as expected Ahern fluffed his way through that and Herr Flick sat beside him like a paralysed poodle. So much for government Watchdog, now they have transformed into Lapdogs.

For once Kenny actually landed a few decent points and Rabitte as well but what the hell was that muppet from Sinn Fein up to. Maybe they don't want the government to come down before the 24th of November.