Should Bertie Ahern Resign over the payments (part two)

ken90

Cuid a feckin hundred not part two.

I'm sick and tired about hearing about the money, can people move on?

There are 57,000 people and businesses, most of whom have been disconnected at a moments notice. Jobs will be lost and the "Celtic Tiger" is looking like a Tinpot Republic abroad for allowing this to happen.

I'm scared out of my tree in case I end up in a hospital that looks like a warzone.

Can the opposition stop knocking everything for a minute and remember the massive good that Alan Dukes did for the Country with the "Tallaght Strategy".

Akrasia

ken90 wrote:

Cuid a feckin hundred not part two.

I'm sick and tired about hearing about the money, can people move on?

There are 57,000 people and businesses, most of whom have been disconnected at a moments notice. Jobs will be lost and the "Celtic Tiger" is looking like a Tinpot Republic abroad for allowing this to happen.

You're worried about Ireland's reputation because a bunch of people had their phones disconnected, but you think the fact that our Prime Minister, a then minister for finance, accepted the equivilant of more than €100,000 into his back pocket is a pointless issue we should just 'get over'?

Akrasia

Zenith74 wrote:

That's just what FFers do, I think people have just learned to ignore them now. They do the exact same thing in TV/radio interviews if they don't want to answer a question; just talk/shout over the interviewer or other interviewees. It's probably lesson 1 at FF training camp - How to dodge questions. It seems to be pretty much limited to them though, members of the other parties tend to be more civilised...

I'm not sure if they actually teach it, But imagine for a moment being at a FF internal parliamentary meeting?.......... sorry about that..

Sgt. Sensible

BaZmO* wrote:

.

The way I see it, he done wrong in accepting the cash but he's not going to admit that, to do so would be political suicide. However, legally he hasn't done any wrong so therefore he won't go because there's no real prosecution against him.

He should go because he's damaging what's left of his party's reputation. That's reason enough. Although one can never underestimate the Irish electorate's tolerance of this kind of nonsense.

Sgt. Sensible

Sgt. Sensible wrote:

He should go because he's damaging what's left of his party's reputation. That's reason enough. Although one can never underestimate the Irish electorate's tolerance of this kind of nonsense.

Thats right,didn't Michael Lowry top the poll in his constituency at the last election?

Sgt. Sensible

Tristrame wrote:

Thats right,didn't Michael Lowry top the poll in his constituency at the last election?

Yep, he was only bout 1000 1st pref votes down on the 1997 result.

democrates

Absenting further revelations he's home free and there will be no early change of Taoiseach let alone government. From an electoral strategy perspective, I think it has caused slight damage for him and the coalition partners which will still be with them for the election. Even if that only means a few votes, that can tip the balance in contentious constituencies, and since I intend to vote for an FG/Labour coalition at the next election this is is fine by me.

constitutionus

democrates wrote:

Absenting further revelations he's home free and there will be no early change of Taoiseach let alone government. From an electoral strategy perspective, I think it has caused slight damage for him and the coalition partners which will still be with them for the election. Even if that only means a few votes, that can tip the balance in contentious constituencies, and since I intend to vote for an FG/Labour coalition at the next election this is is fine by me.

cant help thinking thats what he opposition wanted all along. lets be honest if biffo or co are caught up to no good (and hes in the tribunals trying to explain how he helped a haughy get planning permission for a road to a place that didnt have planning permission ) then bertie has no moral authority to say anything now. hes seriously compromised himself on matters of ethics and principle

by the way the reason i think he had the 50k under the bed? if it was in the bank at the time mirriam wouldve been entitled to half of it. standard family law. untill the divorce is final you can be gouged for everything ,even stuff youve got after youve initially split during the procedings. hell even then theres still come back. we dont have open ended divorce, be warned guys

though i do love the fact he says he didnt have an account. someone asked how he got paid, maybe he got charlie chawke to cash his dail cheques in the goat

Heinrich

constitutionus wrote:

though i do love the fact he says he didnt have an account. someone asked how he got paid, maybe he got charlie chawke to cash his dail cheques in the goat

Good points, pity that Enda, Pat and Co. did not think of that!

Maybe he cashed the cheques in The Goose or Fagan's.

Jaysus, if he ever leaves the Griffith Avenue area I will buy the house and a jemmy to lift the floorboards.:cool:

NewDubliner

democrates wrote:

Absenting further revelations he's home free and there will be no early change of Taoiseach let alone government. From an electoral strategy perspective, I think it has caused slight damage for him

I think ot was a brilliant tactic. He's confessed to a small error and everyone's forgotten about the big stuff.

ronbyrne2005

This country drives me mad, crooked politicians get reelected etc. the sooner we as a nation adopt the necessity of highest standards of ethics and performance in public life the better. We wonder how governement does such a bad job at managing projects etc and we elect people who are crooked /dodgy . What annoys me even more is those that vote for a party because their parents did , most people i meet vote the way their fathers did and don't investigate the policies of other parties that may be more suitbale to their viewpoints on life/society.

Villain

News reports tonight are mentioning the fact Bertie bought his house from one of the men that was at the Manchester meeting!

Akrasia

irish1 wrote:

News reports tonight are mentioning the fact Bertie bought his house from one of the men that was at the Manchester meeting!

where did you see that?

Villain

RTE News at 9.

NewDubliner

Akrasia wrote:

where did you see that?

It was on tonight's 9pm RTE TV news.

Akrasia

thanks.
Here's a link http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1004/ahernb.html

I would be very interested to learn how much he paid for that house, whether or not it was in line with the market value of houses in that area at that time.

gandalf

Whoops if thats true then there is more life in this monkey still. I would hope the revenue are going through all his dealings with a fine tooth comb just like we would expect if we had only a fraction of these incidents happen to us.

Did he get the house at below the market rate for example, if he did will he be taxed on the difference?

constitutionus

gandalf wrote:

Whoops

Did he get the house at below the market rate for example, if he did will he be taxed on the difference?

maybe he's renting and just hasnt coughed up the reddies yet

gandalf

constitutionus wrote:

maybe he's renting and just hasnt coughed up the reddies yet

At this rate one has to wonder if he even paid a deposit !!!

The_Minister

ken90 wrote:

I'm scared out of my tree in case I end up in a hospital that looks like a warzone.

I've said this before on boards, and I'll say it again: I work in a hospital part-time. Hygiene is good (and greatly improved), food is good, staff are generally friendly, and while A&E is crowded, its not the shambles that selected Prime Time clips show it to be, and generally, there isn't anyone on trolleys. (there are some sometimes though). Its never nice to go into hospital, but its not as bad as people make out.

ronbyrne2005

The_Minister wrote:

I've said this before on boards, and I'll say it again: I work in a hospital part-time. Hygiene is good (and greatly improved), food is good, staff are generally friendly, and while A&E is crowded, its not the shambles that selected Prime Time clips show it to be, and generally, there isn't anyone on trolleys. (there are some sometimes though). Its never nice to go into hospital, but its not as bad as people make out.

It would want to be, for the amount of money that is being spent on it, a figure close to 13billion I beleive which is the same amount as the government gets from income tax, just think about that, we spend all the income tax we collect in the country on our health system. It should be world class as we spend much more per capita than france canada and uk which have vastly better systems by all accounts.

democrates

The_Minister wrote:

I've said this before on boards, and I'll say it again: I work in a hospital part-time. Hygiene is good (and greatly improved), food is good, staff are generally friendly, and while A&E is crowded, its not the shambles that selected Prime Time clips show it to be, and generally, there isn't anyone on trolleys. (there are some sometimes though). Its never nice to go into hospital, but its not as bad as people make out.

The waiting list for the first consultant my mother was sent to (a wrong choice due to mis-diagnosis) was 4 months. She was dead 4 months later, but not before the requisite trolley bingo multiple times at 2 seperate A&E's.

Then there were big queues from early morning to see a consultant who would breeze in around 11, presumably after looking after private patients first. Terminally ill people sitting in cheap plastic chairs for hours, fu*king scandalous, it's wrong, wrong wrong. There's no way the shower who presided over that situation developing are getting my vote.

Villain

The_Minister wrote:

I've said this before on boards, and I'll say it again: I work in a hospital part-time. Hygiene is good (and greatly improved), food is good, staff are generally friendly, and while A&E is crowded, its not the shambles that selected Prime Time clips show it to be, and generally, there isn't anyone on trolleys. (there are some sometimes though). Its never nice to go into hospital, but its not as bad as people make out.

Wanna bet on that??

I was in A&E twice this week, once for a minor enough case, a mate had a suspected broken toe and needed an x-ray we arrived in A&E in Kilkenny at half 7pm and left at 1am at no time did anyone tell us what the delay was, there was only 5 other patients in A&E at the time and no-one was seen for about 2 hours, not a move and no communication from staff!.

My other visit to A&E was for a more serious case, which I don't want to go into in detail but it all goes back to a relation contracting MRSA in a leading Dublin Hospital.

Our Health system is a mess, in fact you'd call it a joke if it wasn't so serious, the mate of mine that was in A&E with his damaged toe, lived in Scotland for a few years and he said there was no comparison with the care he received in A&E in Kilkenny and the care he received in Scotland oh and he didn't have to pay for it in Scotland either!. Why can't our health system match that across the water???

Back on topic, Bertie did state in the past he paid 200,000 for his home which he believed was market value at the time, I think the issue here is he couldn't remember the names of the people who attended the meeting in Manchester except for two names, one whom is deceased, yet the person he bought his house from was present at the meeting, how come he couldn't remember him?

In fairness,its not like that all the time.
I was in loughlinstown A&e a few weeks ago on a saturday and it was quiet and there was no one on trollies and my mum was seen immediately.

This is off topic.
Please stay on topic.OFF topic posts may be moved or deleted.

Dave!

http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1699825&issue_id=14723

Taoiseach called on to explain why he didn't name businessman

TAOISEACH Bertie Ahern was under intense new pressure last night for failing to reveal that the businessman he bought his house from was at the controversial Manchester meeting.

The Opposition said the new development was 'bizarre' and 'amazing' and demanded answers from the Fianna Fail leader.

It comes as the Irish Independent can reveal that lawyers for Mr Ahern will try to prevent the Mahon Tribunal from obtaining sensitive details of his marital separation in the High Court on Tuesday.

And it was learned the Government has drawn up new laws which would allow it to shut down the tribunals into political corruption. The timing of the move, during the Taoiseach's worst time in politics, will provoke political uproar.

Last night a Government spokeswoman said there would be no further comment on the Taoiseach's personal finances beyond what he had outlined in the Dail. Last night, it emerged that Micheal Wall, a retired coach and bus hire operator, sold Mr Ahern a house at 44 Beresford Avenue, off Griffith Avenue, Dublin 9, in 1997.

The names of both men appear on an ownership transfer document in the Registry of Deeds.

Three years earlier, Micheal Wall had attended the gifting ceremony in Manchester at which Mr Ahern received stg£8,000. But the Taoiseach in his speech to the Dail this week failed to mention the attendance of Mr Wall.

Mr Ahern named only John Kennedy and Tim Kilroe as attending the dinner in the Four Seasons Hotel.

He did not specify Mr Wall, despite his close financial relationship with him a few years later.

The Progressive Democrats said last night they were "considering this information".

Its leader Michael McDowell last week sought the identities of those who attended the Manchester event - only for Mr Ahern to tell the Dail that he could not reconstitute those present.

But both Fine Gael and Labour called for further clarification by the Taoiseach.

Fine Gael's Environment spokesman Fergus O'Dowd said the Taoiseach had two opportunities on separate days to name the people at that meeting, and had not done so. "It now transpires that Micheal Wall sold the house that the Taoiseach now lives in. This new development is truly bizarre."

He said it streched credulity even further that the Taoiseach did not know that this man was at the dinner in Manchester.

Labour's environment spokesman Eamon Gilmore also asked why the Taoiseach had not placed the information before the Dail when he was questioned on all aspects of this affair.

Micheal Wall, who sold the Taoiseach his Dublin home, lives in Manchester and has retired from business. Originally from Cong, Co Mayo, he is aged in his late sixties.

He went on the Pat Kenny radio show on Tuesday morning to say that he was present at the Manchester gathering. He met the late Aer Arann boss, Tim Kilroe, in the hotel toilets and was told a whip-round was being organised for an Irish politician with "woman problems".

Mr Wall claimed he had no interest in politics and had never voted in Britain or Ireland. For this reason, he said, he did not join the contributors in offering money.

However Mr Wall - who operated a coach hire business in Manchester and personally drove some Irish politicians around the city over the years - had an address in Dublin up to at least 1996 when he disposed of his Beresford home to Mr Ahern. The Taoiseach has not commented on the purchase price, except to say that it was "nearer £200,000" (€253,000) than a price of £67,000 suggested in one newspaper. Mr Ahern told the Dail on Tuesday night that he purchased the home with the assistance of a mortgage loan from the Irish Permanent Building Society. He did not specify the extent of the loan, but said he had been paying it "in recent years".

Senan Molony, Brian Dowling and Dearbhail McDonald

ISAW

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

It would want to be, for the amount of money that is being spent on it, a figure close to 13billion I beleive which is the same amount as the government gets from income tax, just think about that, we spend all the income tax we collect in the country on our health system. It should be world class as we spend much more per capita than france canada and uk which have vastly better systems by all accounts.

[rant mode]
But the money isnt spent on doctors and nurses. there are about 60,000 (from memory ) extra workers in the system since 1999. Hold on I ll look it up.
http://www.cso.ie/statistics/empandunempilo.htm
124 - 188 thousand between 1998 and 2005. Now I do not think nursing homes had a huge increase of staff over that period nor did cleaners. I would think about 6,000 extra nurses (philipino and the like - excellent quality staff wouldnt complain about them.) maybe 500 (and I am really pushing this since it is probably closer to 100) doctors. Lets throw in cleaners and nursing homes to make it up to 10,000 (which is probably a vast overestimation).

One still has 55,000 people to account for. Most of these are administrators! Are they efficient? why does one have to join a queque when entering a hospital only to join another one later and another after that? They are probably delighted the computer system to work out salaries did not woirk. When Charlie Mc Creevy was minister of finance he asked the health service to tell him how many workers they had. When they came back with a number he told them the Revenue Commissioners had supplied a figure of 8,000 higher working in the system paying tax! They cant even count how many work there!
Where has 13 BILLION gone? Well a lot has gone to the extra 60,000 mostly admin staff since 1999.
[/rant]

ISAW

irish1 wrote:

Wanna bet on that??

I was in A&E twice this week,

He just told you A&E is the mess not the rest of the hospital.

Our Health system is a mess,

Yes to much admin and not enought primary care and medical workers.

...the mate of mine that was in A&E with his damaged toe, lived in Scotland for a few years and he said there was no comparison with the care he received in A&E in Kilkenny

Again he just told you. A&E is not the whole hospital!

Back on topic, Bertie did state in the past he paid 200,000 for his home which he believed was market value at the time, I think the issue here is he couldn't remember the names of the people who attended the meeting in Manchester except for two names, one whom is deceased, yet the person he bought his house from was present at the meeting, how come he couldn't remember him?

He bought the house (whether he did so in person I dont know) THREE YEARS LATER I think. He couldnt remember something which was not going to happen for three years. Maybe three years later he might remember but would you? (autumn 1997 - he is on the radio now making a stastement)

Dave!

He says that Michael Wall "didn't eat dinner" at the function, but was there in a working capacity because he drove his van or somethin.

ISAW

ISAW wrote:

He bought the house (whether he did so in person I dont know) THREE YEARS LATER I think. He couldnt remember something which was not going to happen for three years. Maybe three years later he might remember but would you? (autumn 1997 - he is on the radio now making a stastement)

THe guy who sold the house is Michael Wall.
Michael Wall was not at the dinner in Manchester. He didnt contribute any money at that meeting. He WAS at the venue. He supplied a mini bus and was outside and did speak to people in the bar after the dinner. Bertie didnt mention Walls name because Wall said he didnt donate any money and because Bertie didnt tell the PDs about buying a house from Michael Wall buty he DID tell tyhe tribunal.

I thought Bertie might have been paranoid but does it not now look like someone in the tribunal is leaking information to the press??

No more discussion on A and E in this thread please or I will delete the posts.
If anyone wants to talk about that as a separate issue,then open a new thread.

Back on Topic.

Now could someone explain to me what the new problem is ? Is it that Ahern bought a house at the market price from a friend who happened to occasionally attend some of the dinners in Manchester ?

Pass me the barrell scraper please,it needs servicing,its been very busy lately,it would seem.