Should Bertie Ahern Resign over the payments (part two)

Villain

The issue would appear to be the fact he didn't disclose the information in the Dail Tuesday, the Tanaiste asked for Full Accountability and people believe he should have stated that Mr Wall was in the hotel in Manchester (even if he didn't have dinner or donate) and he later bought a House from him.

Bertie stated he had rented the house from Mr Wall for two years prior to buying it and payed market rent values. He also stated that he believed a newspaper is in pocession of ALL the information he gave to the Tribunal.

One more new headline and I reckon McDowell will walk.

ISaw I will be only too happy to discuss Health issues and others but in a relevant thread.

irish1

irish1 wrote:

One more new headline and I reckon McDowell will walk.

I doubt it.Heres the probable chat between the two yesterday after the latest bits of the barrell were scraped...
McDowell to Ahern: Eh whats this then?
Ahern to McDowell: FFS Mick "[valid explanation]"
McDowell to Ahern: Ah its a bit like the NCB company cheque then...tell you what,I'll have a lie in tomorrow and you can take my place in the Dáil and explain it to them,shouldnt take more than a few seconds.

In other words theres nothing to run in this at all.

Villain

I don't know Tristrame, if the reports I have been hearing over the last day or so about unrest in PD's is true I don't think they will stand by Bertie if anything else comes out. Haven't said that I'd be very surprised if anything else does come out, I think the conversation would have went like:

McDowell:"Hey cutie whats this about your house?"
Bertie:" Ah nothing Mick just the fella I bought off was in Manchester but I have squared my story with his so we'r grand"
McDowell: "Well cutie if anything else comes out Parlona and Liz will have be the short and curly's!"
Bertie:"Enough said Mick"

redspider

At the moment, Bertie has done enough dissuading and fobbing off to scrape by and not feel like resigning. It would take a lot more financial back-handers to be uncovered before he would think of doing so, and of course would only do so if he was pushed, and that from mainly within his own party.

The opposition only have so much time to repetitively ask questions before it sounds like a stuck record and they are at that stage now. Unless more dodgy payments are revealed, it looks as if Bertie will weather this storm.

Interesting to see McDowell's absence. His lack of careful comment will put him in hot water again, no doubt about that, and Bertie volunteered to take questions today. The fact that he answers them in his way is another story.

I still think he is guilty as charged, ie: he got money from friends, it was not a loan, etc, and he only paid it back because it was revealed. However, hjis own party dont think it is a sacking offence nor do the PD's so there is nothing that anybody can do about it. Public outrage will wane, and only stood at 60% anyway. All the public can do is remember the incident when voting next time.

In terms of Mary Harney's recent resignation, does anyone think this falls in too neatly? ie: did she get word of it, maybe from Bertie, and decided that now was a good time to go to avoid any quarelling. Her ethos based on the Des O'Malley era and anti-Hughey is anti-backhander so out of her principles alone she would have been torn, even though the amounts were small. Perhaps she resigned 'early' to avoid this stressful situation. hmmmmm

Anyway, this situation is drawing to a close unless something new pops up and is of a larger amount. What most 'dogs on the street' know is that Bertie is not a lavish spender. However, who's to say that he doesnt have something held for his benefit elsewhere, off-shore, etc for a nice easy retirement made on the back of favours, nods, winks, etc. It doesnt look like it though .....

If he had principles, he would have resigned, but he is a politician, a beast which holds on to power no matter what, and that is what he, FF and the PD's are doing.

Redspider

Oh I suspect strongly that Mary Harney didnt want to be at the helm when this story was going to break.
She may not have had specefic facts but she probably knew something was coming,I'd say.

Time Magazine

Ring a-ring a-Bertie,
A pocket full of poundies,
A whoopsie, a hiccup,
We all fall down.

redspider

redspider wrote:

In terms of Mary Harney's recent resignation, does anyone think this falls in too neatly? ie: did she get word of it, maybe from Bertie, and decided that now was a good time to go to avoid any quarelling. Her ethos based on the Des O'Malley era and anti-Hughey is anti-backhander so out of her principles alone she would have been torn, even though the amounts were small. Perhaps she resigned 'early' to avoid this stressful situation. hmmmmm

Anyway, this situation is drawing to a close unless ....

Looks like I spoke too soon. Bertie opened his big mouth again this afternoon in the Dail it seems stating that Mary knew. Why he said this is anyone's guess. A mistake perhaps. Does anyone have the transcript?

And I haven't been the only person speculating that Harney's sudden resignation may have been hurried along due to this impending furore. Dragging down the PD's like this could lead to an FF/PD split. There is only so much flak the PD's can take due to their association with FF and messing with Mary may be the straw. Bertie is still digging a hole and this issue hasnt died yet. He would have been better not being in the Dail today.

Another query I have. Who leaked the stuff to the press and why oh why did bertie put the info into the tribunal domain in the first place? Did he do so to relieve himself of being burdened by it, and if so was it the Developers that had this small piece of leverage on Bertie? Its all very strange.

My stance is as before, that he should go, but its unlikely. It will remain to be seen just which independents will come into a Government if asked if the PD's were to quit. Maybe an election in November would suit the PD's just as much as any other time rather than seeing as the 'lapdog' that supports the failing Government to the bitter end of the term. Bertie is now sounding a bit like Tony Blair. Its not a case of will he, more like a case of when will he.

Redspider

lostexpectation

I can't believe that they allowed politicians not to keep records, even in 1991...

1991, ffs come on not good enough...

why didn't bertie tell us something we all knew
listen to tuesady mornings pat kenny show http://www.rte.ie/rams/radio/latest/Tue/rte-todaywithpatkenny-tpk.smil

why did not have bank account was he having an arguement with his wife about money?

was he trying to keep the money out of the knowledge of the family courts, he probably did want to provide for his childrens college and thats why he puts such an emphasis on the 20,000 trust but probably was still having arguements with his wife about money...

LostinBlanch

irish1 wrote:

Back on topic, Bertie did state in the past he paid 200,000 for his home which he believed was market value at the time, I think the issue here is he couldn't remember the names of the people who attended the meeting in Manchester except for two names, one whom is deceased, yet the person he bought his house from was present at the meeting, how come he couldn't remember him?

Irish times says that he paid £139,000 with a mortgage of £100,00

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2006/1005/1158591393779.html

"The documents in the Registry of Deeds in Dublin show Mr Ahern took out a mortgage on the Drumcondra property in November 1997 from Irish Permanent. There is no indication the mortgage has been cleared.

Documents show that Mr Wall took out a mortgage with the ICS Building Society in March 1995, and cleared it in November 1997. In a book about Mr Ahern by journalists Eugene Masterson and Ken Whelan, it was stated that Mr Ahern had moved into his home two years before the book was published.

It said he had bought the house for £139,000, using a mortgage of £100,000. Mr Ahern co-operated with the book's authors and has never denied this."

Akrasia

LostinBlanch wrote:

Irish times says that he paid £139,000 with a mortgage of £100,00

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2006/1005/1158591393779.html

"The documents in the Registry of Deeds in Dublin show Mr Ahern took out a mortgage on the Drumcondra property in November 1997 from Irish Permanent. There is no indication the mortgage has been cleared.

Documents show that Mr Wall took out a mortgage with the ICS Building Society in March 1995, and cleared it in November 1997. In a book about Mr Ahern by journalists Eugene Masterson and Ken Whelan, it was stated that Mr Ahern had moved into his home two years before the book was published.

It said he had bought the house for £139,000, using a mortgage of £100,000. Mr Ahern co-operated with the book's authors and has never denied this."

So, where did he get the £39,000 down payment? Especially considering he was so hard up for cash that his 'friends' had to pass the hat and 'lend' him about £39,000 (strange co-incidence that)

mike65

McDowell has a simple choise to make over the weekend (if not sooner) does he belive Aherne when he stated Harney was aware various matters and had'nt told anyone else in the PDs (esp McDowell in the last week) or does he belive her when she denies being told.

If he has any sense he'll belive Harney and pull the plug.

I'm willing to take a 'virtual wager' on this government being a single party affair by Monday afternoon.

Mike.

constitutionus

in a surreal turn of events it looks like sinn fein have finished him off:eek: when their leader (i cant spell his name so i wont try!) profered his theory that the irish times editor, who apparently is a PD supporter, was going to run the story gave mary the heads up, so she could avoid the flak bertie dropped himself in it by revealing mary knew about the payments. something she's denied strenuously and leading to the PDs not commentating on anything all day and even requesting a transcript

i think this is it, theres no way they can pretend to be the moral watchdog to FF when it looks like theyve been tickled on the stomach instead. i dont see bertie resigning but unless micheal can square this somehow theres no way they can stay in office without looking like theyve compleatly abandoned the thing thats supposed to set them apart. tactically speaking now its a choice between keeping power for 8 months and potentially reaping the whirlwind or leaving now on principle and hoping it'll pay off. after all if the PDs dont have the moral high ground whats the point voting for em? micks in the same boat labour was when springer did his "lets get the bastards out" routine and hopped in the sack with FF. I know people who STILL wont vote labour over that and that was in 91! so micheals decision now could decide his and the PDs future for the next decade

looks like it'll be the independants to the rescue for bertie. my bet we'll all know by tomorrow afternoon at the latest:D

ISAW

Akrasia wrote:

So, where did he get the £39,000 down payment? Especially considering he was so hard up for cash that his 'friends' had to pass the hat and 'lend' him about £39,000 (strange co-incidence that)

Is it sterling or Euro?

anyway it seems he bought the house THREE YEARS AFTER the Manchester meeting.

constitutionus

yup, pleanty of time on a ministerial wage to save that. which begs a question. why so little? putting half his wage away in three years he couldve saved over 100k, its not like he has an ostentatious lifestyle so where did the gosh go? seems like rather a large mortage to get for a man on such a high salery

NewDubliner

ISAW wrote:

Is it sterling or Euro?

anyway it seems he bought the house THREE YEARS AFTER the Manchester meeting.

He was renting it for TWO YEARS before he bought it.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1005/ahernb.html

LostinBlanch

constitutionus wrote:

yup, pleanty of time on a ministerial wage to save that. which begs a question. why so little? putting half his wage away in three years he couldve saved over 100k, its not like he has an ostentatious lifestyle so where did the gosh go? seems like rather a large mortage to get for a man on such a high salery

Well if rumours* are to believd he has finacnial interests in a number of developments on the northside.

One thing though, wasn't Frank Connolly and the CPI going to look into dealings with the Dublin Port Authority / Company about land being sold / released for develpoment purposes at extremely favourable rates to certain business interests. I'm ringing this up because I think that one of the people that "contributed" to Berties dig out was appointed to the board of the Dublin Port Authority.


*from people supposedly in the know in his constituency. But still rumours all the same.

constitutionus

the media seem to be missing the point on the issue about berties house and the silent treatment from the PDs. it got nothing to do with the property at all but the slip he did in the dail saying harney knew about the loans /gifts/payments at questions time. seeing as mary said she'd no such knowledge this puts either one or the other of them in the position of being a liar, sorry "disingenuous", if the guy had just kept his mouth shut to the bare minimum of an answer he'dve been alright but he had to waffle on.

constitutionus

constitutionus wrote:

seeing as mary said she'd no such knowledge this puts either one or the other of them in the position of being a liar, sorry "disingenuous", if the guy had just kept his mouth shut to the bare minimum of an answer he'dve been alright but he had to waffle on.

No.
If you go back and look at what Ahern said(though his words really are meaning less and less by the day,I'd be starting to more accurately describe them as Gaffes)...
Anyway Ahern used the phrase he believed...
You can believe something without it being a fact and you can believe something thats untrue or incorrect without being a liar.

Villain

He said he "believed" she knew about the loans alright, however he use believe when he said Mary knew he was dealing with the tribunal, I don't think he can use his words to wiggle his way out of this one. He said Mary knew something was going on, Mary said she didn't only one can be telling the truth!

ronbyrne2005

If a minister was gonna be corrupt he could do things to help people amass fortunes(through planning/rezoning and tax law etc) with a view to getting a quid pro quos after he finishes in government. There need be no assets in this hypothetical minister's name and no paper trail may exist. Such a minister may not ever receive assets like shares property etc but may get huge consultancy fees from the people he helped when he retires. This is not referring to bertie ahern but to governement ministers generally.

ronbyrne2005

constitutionus wrote:

the media seem to be missing the point on the issue about berties house and the silent treatment from the PDs. it got nothing to do with the property at all but the slip he did in the dail saying harney knew about the loans /gifts/payments at questions time. seeing as mary said she'd no such knowledge this puts either one or the other of them in the position of being a liar, sorry "disingenuous", if the guy had just kept his mouth shut to the bare minimum of an answer he'dve been alright but he had to waffle on.

McDowell rowed with ahearn before the dail today over the house incident according to newstalk earlier. Mcdowell should be peeved as he has backed ahearn and things keep poping up that look dodgy and stop the gov from setting the agenda .

Darragh29

Apparently Bertie has told Mc Dowell to either stand by him or walk, according to the latest news. FF reckon they can stay in government by using the independents and some of the FF gene pool candidates. I personally think this is seriously undemocratic, should it happen that the PD's walk and the government survives another 8 months with the support of a scatter of independents.

redspider

It is true that Geraldine Kennedy is a PDer, no doubt about that, although that doesnt prevent her and her staff from writing anti-PD stuff from time to time. I guess FF may now feel that the time is right to give the PD's a bloddy nose, putting them in a Hobson's choice position. Many of them feel that over the years FF have been far too generous to the PD's and have elevated them to a level that is way beyond their public mandate. This is of course true and perhaps some electioneering is already going on and better to strike now.

However, having said that, I dont know FF's overall election tactics. Do they think they could get in with the Green's help? Lab and FG are putting up a united front and an alternative/next government approach. If FF and PD's split their 'marriage of convenience', it wont necessarily help them get more FF votes.

This is a messy situation and if I was an FF backbencher, I would wait and see how things transpire, if FF dont get back into Government, then surey it would be a case of Bertie having to resign. In that context, Bertie's days are numbered.

Redspider

irish1

irish1 wrote:

He said he "believed" she knew about the loans alright, however he use believe when he said Mary knew he was dealing with the tribunal, I don't think he can use his words to wiggle his way out of this one. He said Mary knew something was going on, Mary said she didn't only one can be telling the truth!

In fairness,as you well know,you can believe something and it needn't be the case.
It's a classic bertieism.Harney is making light of it.

If you want my opinion,unless there actually is something in fact dodgy about the house purchase,McDowell would be silly to walk.
Whilst Ahern was stupid not to mention who he bought the house from,its no co incidence in my opinion that the peope leaking the information drip fed it in the way that they have.
The gas thing is that unless the conspirators have something solid about the house,then they need more ammunition and I think they will be disappointed.
It's very well planned for maximum effect and if McDowell doesnt see that,then he's very naive and I doubt that.
Seeing the calculated drip feed though wouldnt be enough to stop him being mad with Ahern though for not copping the hell on and mentioning it.

BaZmO*

constitutionus wrote:

in a surreal turn of events it looks like sinn fein have finished him off:eek: when their leader (i cant spell his name so i wont try!)

You can't spell Gerry Adams?

Akrasia

James Breen 'independent/fianna fail' from clare has come out this morning saying he believes there should be an immediate general election, which is a pretty strong indication that he would not rally in behind FF if they need extra support to keep themselves in government.

I dont think Bertie will be able to find many independent TDs willing to back him up (other than Jackie healy raeving lunatic). It would be a very bad move for any td to be seen to be propping up this moribund government. There doesn't seem to be much in it for them, and they would have an awful lot to lose.

Akrasia

BaZmO* wrote:

You can't spell Gerry Adams?

i think he meant Caoimhin o Caolain

redspider

Akrasia wrote:

I dont think Bertie will be able to find many independent TDs willing to back him up (other than Jackie healy raeving lunatic). It would be a very bad move for any td to be seen to be propping up this moribund government. There doesn't seem to be much in it for them, and they would have an awful lot to lose.

I agree.

Heinrich

ISAW wrote:

Is it sterling or Euro?

anyway it seems he bought the house THREE YEARS AFTER the Manchester meeting.

...and was renting it two years beforehand. Now I wonder if he really paid rent or was he a "guest"?

If he ever sells the hous I will buy it just to be able to rip up the floorboards and mattresses.

Just think that the minister for finance forgets details, has influential friends who were not from his early days in Drummer, gets 13 year loand without any paperwork and gifts from strangers.

That adds up to sleaze!

Besides, a liar need a good memory and his seems to be failing (selectively)!

Akrasia

Heinrich wrote:

...and was renting it two years beforehand. Now I wonder if he really paid rent or was he a "guest"?

If he ever sells the hous I will buy it just to be able to rip up the floorboards and mattresses.

Just think that the minister for finance forgets details, has influential friends who were not from his early days in Drummer, gets 13 year loand without any paperwork and gifts from strangers.

That adds up to sleaze!

Besides, a liar need a good memory and his seems to be failing (selectively)!

the prime time report is available here: http://dynamic.rte.ie/av/230-2179675.smil

Bertie said he paid 30% more than Michael Wall paid for the house. MIchael Wall paid £138,000, but according to Prime Time, Bertie only paid £139,000 He said recently that he paid £180,000 for the house. that is 40,000 less than the figure he agreed with in 1998. More and more inconsistancies are pointing to more favours for Bertie