Should Bertie Ahern Resign over the payments (part two)

lostexpectation

so how did he pay the balance at the time?

gandalf

FF TD due before Mahon Tribunal over Irish Times issue

Junior Minister and Fianna Fail TD Noel Treacy is due to appear before the Mahon Tribunal next week in connection with the Irish Times reporting issue.
Yesterday, the tribunal decided to refer the newspaper's editor and public affairs correspondent to the High Court for refusing to reveal the source of leaked tribunal documents about the Taoiseach's finances.

The Irish Times used the documents to break the story about the payments Bertie Ahern received from businessmen in 1993 and 1994.

http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=99476

Jaysus its gets more and more interesting eh

gandalf

gandalf wrote:

http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=99476

Jaysus its gets more and more interesting eh

Except he's only being drawn in front of Judge Mahon for comments he made on Newstalk 106 saying that he knew which barrister was leaking information from the tribunal.

In other news-McDowell has just given a doorstep interview saying he was going to stay in government and get on with his ministry.

All this I heard on newstalk 106 at 2pm

gandalf

Oh bugger anyway I was hoping he was the leak!!!!

As for McDowell I reckon he knows he's fubar'ed anyway so he might as well enjoy the Ministerial Merc for another 8 months before he refreshs his CV

mike65

McDowell has failed his own test, the PDs changed Irish politics sweeping away Civil War Politics, espousing a free-market pro competition/anti-stateist philosophy which has been absorbed by FF, FG and yes by Labour as well.

So having done what they set out to do the party's only reason to exist is as a vehicle for probity and straight-talking. However they have gone from being the watchdog to FF to a mudguard protecting the arse-end of Fianna Fail so they might as well cease to be.

Mike.

redspider

mike65 wrote:

The PD's only reason to exist is as a vehicle for probity and straight-talking. However they have gone from being the watchdog to FF to a mudguard protecting the arse-end of Fianna Fail so they might as well cease to be.

Hi Mike,

I agree to a certain extent. However, I thought that was the situation before the last election but their no. of seats doubled, so go figure. Perhaps this time it is now even MORE obvious.

mike65 wrote:

the PDs changed Irish politics sweeping away Civil War Politics, espousing a free-market pro competition/anti-stateist philosophy which has been absorbed by FF, FG and yes by Labour as well.

I think you give the PD's too much credit. Rather than them being a 'new wave' in politics, they were in fact disenfranchised members of the 'civil war' parties of FF and FG, and a scattering of Labour. They didnt sweep away the civil war parties, and their political philosophy is close to that of other 'disenfranchised' members of FF that stayed within its ranks, and indeed within FG ranks.

I would welcome a new party in the Irish scene as much as anyone or indeed everyone, but the only new party of any substance to appear in recent decades is the Green Party. Many people look at the PD's as just a grouping of ex-FF's and FG's which are 'rebranded' and who have some individuals that take a more right of centre view.

Mary Harney was a huge vote winner for the party in all places where they stood, and it is far from national(!), so how that will work out remains to be seen.

Safe bet = hung dail ....

Redspider

mike65

They didnt sweep away the civil war parties, and their political philosophy is close to that of other 'disenfranchised' members of FF that stayed within its ranks, and indeed within FG ranks.

Well the PDs gave it "focus". backbenchers and even government Ministers can grumble away in the background all they like but it would be better had they spoke out. Charlie McCreevy is a good example - a PD in all but name yet would'nt jump ship.

Mike.

constitutionus

Tristrame wrote:

Except he's only being drawn in front of Judge Mahon for comments he made on Newstalk 106 saying that he knew which barrister was leaking information from the tribunal.

In other news-McDowell has just given a doorstep interview saying he was going to stay in government and get on with his ministry.

All this I heard on newstalk 106 at 2pm

actually he didnt say barrister, he said source. which could mean anything up to and including a fax machine:D and as such will probably provide his escape route in the tribunal. but he's not the only one, mary o rourke was waffling on newstalk too saying FF "should look closer to home" in regards to the leak too.

jaysus is it just me or are alot of politicians putting their foot in it lately? the house thing was nothing really but bertie nearly toppled the government with one sentence trying to get out of it, must be something in the ballygowan!

lostexpectation

well its seems the excitement is over but what is tis new piece of information that is being referred too learned by the
PDs friday?

Akrasia

constitutionus wrote:

jaysus is it just me or are alot of politicians putting their foot in it lately? the house thing was nothing really but bertie nearly toppled the government with one sentence trying to get out of it, must be something in the ballygowan!

Actually, the house thing has the potential to be quite big.

If Bertie bought the house for £139,000 like he said he did in 1998, then he recieved a discount of up to £28,000. it would also mean that he lied this week when he told us that he paid £180,000 for his house.

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

Actually, the house thing has the potential to be quite big.

If Bertie bought the house for £139,000 like he said he did in 1998, then he recieved a discount of up to £28,000. it would also mean that he lied this week when he told us that he paid £180,000 for his house.

I doubt he'd lie regarding the deed of assignment for the house which he says states the price at IR£180,000.

Akrasia

Did he lie when he said he had a £100,000 mortgage?

How on earth would you or I know?.. without sight of his deeds and bank details,which I presume Mahon has sight of.

He may have lied to the people who were on the news talking about the book they wrote on him in which he mentioned the £139,000 figure or he may have been mistaken or rather too busy to check facts.
I wont be quick with an accusation of lying untill I have something factual in front of me and neither should you.

You can believe he's a liar if you want of course,but I wouldnt go asserting it as fact though without being in possesion of definitive facts on that.

constitutionus

somethings up cause macdowels having a meeting with ahern tonight concerning "new information" regarding the 8000stg manchester payment.

vague i know but thats all the PDs will say about it. looks like its not over yet

Chillwithcian

constitutionus wrote:

actually he didnt say barrister, he said source. which could mean anything up to and including a fax machine:D and as such will probably provide his escape route in the tribunal. but he's not the only one, mary o rourke was waffling on newstalk too saying FF "should look closer to home" in regards to the leak too.

jaysus is it just me or are alot of politicians putting their foot in it lately? the house thing was nothing really but bertie nearly toppled the government with one sentence trying to get out of it, must be something in the ballygowan!

I agree

mike65

McDowell is looking for new info about 'more revelations' according to Newstalk. The two meet again tomorrow.

Mike.

democrates

McDowell lookng to meet again with Aherne over 'new information'?

My guess is it's irrelevant information, will lead to zero legally and both parties know it. This is just panto-politics to try to salvage the PD 'watchdog' image with no cost to FF, indeed a play on redemtion. "Oh that was looked into that and it was all above board".

Looks more like a pr 'debt of honour' from FF for the flack the PD's have suffered due to Berties 'accusable' deallings.

ronbyrne2005

Read this, very interesting.

http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/story.aspx-qqqt=THE+INSIDER-qqqs=themarket-qqqs=computersinbusiness-qqqid=17847-qqqx=1.asp

Basically Bertie as finance minister took advice from a stockbroker(NCB guy) about the currency crisis. Bertie had a lot of power to affect the value of the currency and the information he had and the descisions he made and planned on making would have been of great interest and value to speculators who in the end made hundreds of millions of punts from the devaluation of the punt. Theres no cast iron evidence that ahearn did anything corrupt or fraudulent but the fact that a minister of finance was taking advice from a stockbroker/banker who would be in a position to benefit or use the sensitive information is seen by observers to be highly unusual and unacceptable, the fact he then took a 5k corporate cheque from the NCB stockbroker guy a few months later makes it even worse.

I feel this stinks and cast further doubt over ahearns actions as minister for finance.

oscarBravo

Ron, this is a discussion forum: please contribute more than "this is interesting". At least summarise the points made in the article, and contribute your own take on them.

TomF

The new law Bertie is talking about to forbid members of the government from taking gifts from strangers reminds me of what I always told my kids when they were leaving for a night out: "Don't talk to strangers unless you know them." Bertie's Law could be put in similar terms: "Don't take gifts from strangers unless you know them."

constitutionus

oohh heard a very interesting bit of information on newstalks breakfast show. apparently berties still trying to frustrate the tribunals access to his marital sepertion agreement with miriam. this is odd seeing as berties basically said all the info was out there and anyway on the surface this looks like its nobody's business,till one of the guests on the show revealed some potentially explosive detail.

under the discovery order in the family law courts bertie is obliged to reveal all his assets to the court in order to ascertain what maintenance his ex and the kids would be entitled to and heres the good part. this would include all loans and debts thats he's accrued so logically the money he got off the twelve disciples should be in it. if its not theres only two conclusions either A. he didnt tell the court and potentially is in comtempt or B. he didnt actually get a loan, the money was a gift in his mind, and these documents prove it.

could be life in this issue yet:D

lostexpectation

constitutionus wrote:

oohh heard a very interesting bit of information on newstalks breakfast show. apparently berties still trying to frustrate the tribunals access to his marital sepertion agreement with miriam. this is odd seeing as berties basically said all the info was out there and anyway on the surface this looks like its nobody's business,till one of the guests on the show revealed some potentially explosive detail.

under the discovery order in the family law courts bertie is obliged to reveal all his assets to the court in order to ascertain what maintenance his ex and the kids would be entitled to and heres the good part. this would include all loans and debts thats he's accrued so logically the money he got off the twelve disciples should be in it. if its not theres only two conclusions either A. he didnt tell the court and potentially is in comtempt or B. he didnt actually get a loan, the money was a gift in his mind, and these documents prove it.

That's what should be the headline of the Irish TImes tmw, come on they started it.
Bertie still trying to hide his FINANCIAL dealings from the Mahon tribunal.

The papers ahd a little rush on him but I want to see pictures of him or his lawyers going to the high court on 9 news. Even if it there nothing there. I exect for this to be covered.

jcatony

If i walked into the goat pub and asked charie chalk to spot me about 350k, do you think he would oblige? I am just about to commit to a 35 year mortgage and i have heard many wonderful tales of his kindness and generosity.

MontgomeryClift

jcatony wrote:

If i walked into the goat pub and asked charie chalk to spot me about 350k, do you think he would oblige? I am just about to commit to a 35 year mortgage and i have heard many wonderful tales of his kindness and generosity.

Now you said it. I'll go along with ye. Shur I only make a finance minister's salary meself. I'm in a bad way, you see, cos I just separated from the wife and I don't even earn 250,000 a year and how is a man of the people going to survive on anything less? Shur let's all go have a whipround.

jcatony

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

It would want to be, for the amount of money that is being spent on it, a figure close to 13billion I beleive which is the same amount as the government gets from income tax, just think about that, we spend all the income tax we collect in the country on our health system. It should be world class as we spend much more per capita than france canada and uk which have vastly better systems by all accounts.

I have worked in a Dublin hospital for over ten years now and i have seen great improvements thanks to greater investment. The health service must not be treated as a business as it is in America but i do think that too much of the money poured into the health service is squandered. Less administration and middle managers, more nurses and beds.